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Continued Stannis Character Assasination [Book and TV Spoilers]


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I don't get the Stannis hate. He's not the "best" person in the books, but as far as current Iron Throne candidates, he's far and away the best choice. We're running out of honorable/ just characters, as well. Not to mention him currently taking up the Stark cause (so some of his fans are certainly Stark supporters).

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Right off the bat when he's talking to Davos about sacrificing Gendry, it sounds as though he doesn't give a flying fuck about the kid. He then proceeds to dehumanize him on the grounds of being a bastard. When he's talking to Mellisandre right after getting back, he knows she's going to kill the boy, and doesn't take any issue with it. The only issue he really brings to mind is prolonging Gendry's torment.

reread the bolded part. If he doesnt have an issue with it why is he talking to Davos at all about it ?

What he's doing is laying out the argument to Davos because he wants Davos to tell him why he shouldnt do this.

that's how I read it because its what I do sometimes when im stressed out about a decision. I have a gut feeling against it but I cant articulate it, so I go to someone who I know will argue against it.

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He gets a shitload of development during the Jon Snow and Asha chapters. What are you talking about dude?

No, we see the same old prickly, hard nosed, just Stannis through the eyes of people who don't think his shit smells like chocolate. The story just develops more than it does in his Davos chapters.

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reread the bolded part. If he doesnt have an issue with it why is he talking to Davos at all about it ?

What he's doing is laying out the argument to Davos because he wants Davos to tell him why he shouldnt do this.

that's how I read it because its what I do sometimes when im stressed out about a decision. I have a gut feeling against it but I cant articulate it, so I go to someone who I know will counter the decision.

I didn't see it that way when I initally watched it, but your interpretation makes sense thematically. I'll keep this in mind when I rewatch it. It's clear Davos functions as one side of his conscience, and link to his humanity, but when I saw the scene I felt unconvinced because of how the conversation went down. Maybe if the delivery had been different, I would have been a little more on board.

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No, we see the same old prickly, hard nosed, just Stannis through the eyes of people who don't think his shit smells like chocolate. The story just develops more than it does in his Davos chapters.

Your original point was that people like him because most of what we see of Stannis comes from the view of a man who idealizes and romanticizes him. In the Asha and Jon Snow chapters we see him from different vantage points, and in fact I think the character is often more compelling from their POVs than in the Davos chapters. People like Stannis because of his prickly sense of honor and relentlessness, not because Davos places us in a narrow lens where he becomes whitewashed.

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The scene with Davos did wonders for Stannis' on-screen characterization. Need to see if any illiterati have changed their tunes about him.

Illiterati, I just spit out my drink, well played.

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No, we see the same old prickly, hard nosed, just Stannis through the eyes of people who don't think his shit smells like chocolate. The story just develops more than it does in his Davos chapters.

If you see him in that way, then you will see him like that no matter whose pov you read. Jon is neutral about Stannis, and even when he sometimes hopes he and his party would go away, he respects him enough to care for his approval.

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This thread is an example of why knee jerk reactions are generally bad. This episode was good for Stannis. I really love when he and Davos interact.

I wholeheartedly admit probably should have sat down for another viewing for posting this. If you actually read my responses though, I think there are plenty of valid reasons for not enjoying the direction they're taking the character.

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I agree to some degree. I hated the scene with Mel before she leaves. The rest I was fine with. Stannis is really set up to be more likable after they save the wall, in my opinion.

That scene was terrible, but that is not what the OP is about at all. This one was very good.

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The term "character assassination" is thrown around here way too much needs to be toned down. Every time we get a scene that one person doesn't like about their favorite character and all of a sudden its "assassination." Honestly it grinds my gears

PS: I'm not singling you out OP, just everyone who throws this term around thinking it makes them sound smart.

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because Gendry is a human being? Stannis is not a monster.

Except book Stannis has had people burned alive, which is one of the most painful ways to kill someone that doesn't involve stopping part way through and patching them up so you can keep torturing them (even most cases of burnings in the real world they were actually strangled before the fire was lit). The people he did this to were criminals, but they were still human.

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The term "character assassination" is thrown around here way too much needs to be toned down. Every time we get a scene that one person doesn't like about their favorite character and all of a sudden its "assassination." Honestly it grinds my gears

PS: I'm not singling you out OP, just everyone who throws this term around thinking it makes them sound smart.

Honestly in retrospect I was wrong to apply it to this episode. It's not how I pictured Stannis from the source material, but it doesn't deviate in such a way that ruins him. I definitely feel you though on the term getting thrown around too often.

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I actually like Stannis because of his warts and because he is actually inept in many situations in the context of him being a king. If his unsutablitiy for the throne was not bad enough he is further hampered by the fact that his wife is a harpy, his cheif advisor is a foreigner, female, and a practitioner of dark magic, and his most loyal bannerman is a low born smuggler, who has no real influence in Westeros. Yet despite all these handicaps he is still relavent through a combination of luck, good and bad, perseverance, foes even more inept than him, and occasinal bursts of clarity in both his moral and strategic judgements. His portrayal has been a little flat so far but in the books hes kind of the Westerosi equivalent of a third party candidate and people make him into something he is not, a frontrunner.

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Except book Stannis has had people burned alive, which is one of the most painful ways to kill someone that doesn't involve stopping part way through and patching them up so you can keep torturing them (even most cases of burnings in the real world they were actually strangled before the fire was lit). The people he did this to were criminals, but they were still human.

But they were criminals or traitors. Stannis is a leader, and in his own context, he is meant to show others that he's serious about punishing criminals. Gendry is not, nor was Edric, bastards or not, those were innocent children.

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I just have to say, that while I think its important to take the show and the book as two autonomous works of art, I am highly disatisfied with this simplified portrayal of Stannis. Whether or not you like him as a character in the books, he is far more complex and three-dimensional than he is in this television series. His immediate willingness to sacrifice Gendry was such a let down for me. There wasn't even a split second of conflict. Stannis was adamantly opposed to burning Edric initially and was only convinced when he believed there was absolutely no other option to save the kingdom. Here, Stannis has little to no regard for Gendry's life, and it just felt to me like the writers were purposely ignoring the source material in order to further establish him as villain. Unlike the books, where we have the proper space for us to contemplate Stannis' character and moral ambiguity, the series creates a narrow spectrum in which he can only be viewed as an entitled douchebag. If you're going to make deviations in a character arc, you should maintain the complexity of said characters, rather than simplify them in order to force you're own views down the throats of the audience.

I think that - for the show - we need to consider that not everything can be on screen (for such obvious reasons). Stannis is so clearly portrayed as tired. Tired with fighting, tired with being the rightful heir, tired of arguing with his own people. But he still went to Davos just before the sacrifice to get some help with the whole situation, obviously there is still some morality in his involvement of a innocent sacrifice.

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I didn't see any sign of character assassination. Didn't you pay attention to the end of his conversation with Davos. He went to see Davos because he knew what Davos was going to say and that part of himself was disagreeing with Melisandre. It's very clear he is conflicted.

Edit: :ninja: 'd

:agree: I'm not a Stannis fan, and yet this episode actually made me like him.

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