Reviewing Second Sons

[Westeros]

We have updated our episode guide for this week’s latest episode, “Second Sons”, with our usual complete recap, analysis, and book-to-screen break down. Enjoy!

This week’s extra video over at our Youtube channel may be delayed a day, as we’re a little short on time for recording.

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[The hairy bear]

I agree with most of your points, although I hated Tyrion's whitewashing much more. Not so much for what it did for the character of Tyrion, but mainly for what it meant to Sansa. A half smile to Tyrion? Kneeling to collaborate in the marriage? Have her undress herself without even waiting for Tyrion to order it, or at least ask? What the hell where they thinking? They've taken away Sansa's dignity here.

Btw, I think that in the book to screen section, it should be Davos IV instead of Davos V.

[pantouflas]

You are of course right that Mellisandre sex was fan service, but there is a reason for it: the show has established that her magic needs lust and royal blood to work. That's why the third leech went where it went :)

[Ran]

And why has the show established this? Yes, fan service. :P

Here's the particularly dumb thing, though: how in the world is she going to do that to Gendry again? She has terrified him and he'll no longer be a willing lamb to the slaughter.

[The Anti-Targ]

I wasn't too fussed about the nudity in this episode. It met quota of course, but I thought it was less contrived than some of the stupid scenes like the last Theon scene.

Dany was more fan service than Mel, though almost seeing Gendry was no doubt a strong nod to the ladies, and some laddies. I'm sure lots of the perv audience have been craving to see Dany's nakedness since Season 1 (if I'm not mistaken).

Mel's not going to try to put Gendry at his ease that way a second time so a bit of seduction to get those leeches on him is fine. Besides, if Gendry follows the path of Edric then Davos ships him off before Mel gets a second shot so the point is moot as to how Mel is going to slaughter that lamb.

No point in crying over spilled milk re Tyrion. Given what they did with Tyrion's character up to this point, having Sansa react in any other way would have meant turning the audience off Sansa, rather than her being admired for being bravely defiant. Better for the audience to remain sympathetic to Sansa at this point.

[Mladen]

Ran, I really like your review of Second Sons. I especially liked how you differentiate nudity in Melisandre`s scene and in Daenerys`. I really nailed with the first two paragraphs of the analysis, and it was indeed pleasurable reading.

Also, your opinions on Tyrion are quite moderate comparing to what I believe is happening on the show. But I do admit you have more clearer view than I have and that your analysis of Sansa/Tyrion wedding and bedding is a bit more objective than mine.

I have to say for the end, I really enjoy reading your reviews. They have this beautiful connection between books and TV show, and you take the best from both worlds to write such insightful reviews. Again, well done.

Also, for you it may be nothing, but I have to say when I saw your reply on my thread about Sansa, I was immensly honored :blushing:

[boojam]

And why has the show established this? Yes, fan service. :P

Here's the particularly dumb thing, though: how in the world is she going to do that to Gendry again? She has terrified him and he'll no longer be a willing lamb to the slaughter.

Well how long are we going on about this adult situation thing without mentioning that it occurs on almost every HBO series?

I mention just two: ROME and DEADWOOD , and there are many more.

Going on about this is futile.

[Ran]

Not going on about it seems just as futile away. One has a right to demand better.

Though I will say, Deadwood and its nudity was generally far more restrained, and the show basically never had nudity for the sake of nudity.

[boojam]

Not going on about it seems just as futile away. One has a right to demand better.

Though I will say, Deadwood and its nudity was generally far more restrained, and the show basically never had nudity for the sake of nudity.

Do you think it's Dave or Dan or HBO?

Even George had stuff in the novels that seemed out of context.

Sometimes when it is incidental I don't even notice , Blackwater comes to mind.

[Winterz]

I so have to agree with your insight about Cersei and Marge's conversation. I understand the show was probably just trying to show how hateful Cersei can be but going as far as she making those empty threats to a Tyrell seems a bit too much. I mean I was like Margaery should just reply something like

"Oh yeah, you do that and a 100,000 Tyrell soldiers destroy the Westerlands, sack King's Landing and extinguish your line without any further thoughts or maybe we'll just withdraw our support to King Joffrey and leave you here to starve. Threaten me again and the Tyrells might be the ones singing "Rains of Castamere" to you."

[Alia of the knife]

In terms of the nudity, when it begins to become predictable, that's when it becomes a problem, especially if SNL starts making fun of it, (and that's HBO as a whole).

Some of the most erotic things are the things not seen, but felt and the mind is a terrible thing to waste.

I don't know what to think of the scene between Loras and Cersei. On one hand I thought it was funny, but on the other hand, I feel like it shouldn't have been funny, because now it seems that Loras has become a caricature.

I did like the interaction beween Dany and Daario. It felt almost sincere on his part.

Edit: I think it becomes more apparent that the Tyrells are just "Lannister Light" no different than them, and as a consequence it proves what goes around comes around, but, it also doesn't really bode well for the Tyrells either.

[sausagekingchi]

I agree that some of the nudity in this show is done so for titillation purposes only, but the books themselves are loaded with scenes that have nudity in them. They cut out as much as they add in. Of course some of what they cut out would lend more purpose to the show, but for various reasons some of those scenes are not shown. The Dany scene I thought was perfectly done, and didn't just show her nude for nudity sakes.

[notakneeler]

I loved your review of this episode, as always, but am surprised you did not note that the show's version of Daario's arrival is dumbing Dany down in the same way they are dumbing Sansa down. By having Daario getting by Dany's Unsullied and Dothraki guards, they are making her look incompentent. By NOT showing how the barrel of wine was Danny's ruse to assist in attacking the defenders, they are removing her agency. This passage of time between her meeting with the sellswords and her attack destroys the notion of her being a conqueror just like the addition of time between Tyrion's notice to Sansa of their wedding removes the forcible and deceitful nature of the Lannister's treatment of Sansa.

[boojam]

I so have to agree with your insight about Cersei and Marge's conversation. I understand the show was probably just trying to show how hateful Cersei can be but going as far as she making those empty threats to a Tyrell seems a bit too much. I mean I was like Margaery should just reply something like

"Oh yeah, you do that and a 100,000 Tyrell soldiers destroy the Westerlands, sack King's Landing and extinguish your line without any further thoughts or maybe we'll just withdraw our support to King Joffrey and leave you here to starve. Threaten me again and the Tyrells might be the ones singing "Rains of Castamere" to you."

I think if I was Marg, I would have said, "Ah... I will pass that along to your father."

[boojam]

I agree that some of the nudity in this show is done so for titillation purposes only, but the books themselves are loaded with scenes that have nudity in them. They cut out as much as they add in. Of course some of what they cut out would lend more purpose to the show, but for various reasons some of those scenes are not shown. The Dany scene I thought was perfectly done, and didn't just show her nude for nudity sakes.

Well George has Dany giving Daario a BJ, think they will keep that?

[King Brandon Ice Eyes]

Great review, congratulations! And very good episode! I'm loving Sam and Gilly's arc as much as I loved Davos and Shireen scene. It's good when the show indulges in sweetness and kindness to counterbalance all the horror. I always liked John Bradley as Sam but I also thought they made him too much of a comic relief, cheerful character that differs from the serious and highly traumatized character that we know in the books. But I'm perfectly OK with that because of the great acting of course but also for the fact that there is so much goodness and believability in this man. I think it's very understandable that he wants to be with Gilly and doesn't hide his love unlike his book counterpart who struggled with his vows. A nice conversation that served to remind us of Randyll Tarly and his treatment of his son (in case viewers have forgotten). And finally we got Sam the Slayer in all his glory! Thank you HBO!

I thought all the scenes with Tyrion were good. I don't really mind all the white-washing of the character because Tyrion is still a Lannister and played a large part for his family stay in power. So I think that's enough ambivalence and greyness for now. His hatred and resentment for Tywin is clear and we all know where this is going to lead when he learns a certain truth. And I don't see how Shae's murder can be anything but a complete shock much more so than in the books (probably). I don't know how they will play her treason but it's hard to make her suddenly so unsympathetic as she is in ASOIAF. And the fact that Tyrion murders her anyway... That's just my opinion of course. I think the actors and the actress who play the core Lannisters are all marvelous and their performance always a highlight to compensate the eventual changes in their characters.

[Aemon Stark]

Small comment, but regarding the popularity of "morally ambiguous" characters like Walter White, I'd say that by season 5 "WW" is more someone you love to hate, and whose moral compass has fallen far enough not to be especially ambiguous anymore.

[Saharazade]

the nudity issue.. HBO is a pay channel the content is put out there for it's audience. Honestly some of the nudity in the show I find a little OTT, other bits I find alright. I have no real issues with the human form. Dany needs to tone her butt. LOL.

For the most part the series is fairly well done. The books are so involved, vast and detailed I think they have done a more than credible job with the show. I've watched other series based on books that seem to have little or no relationship to the books at all. Translation to television for such epic books has to be hard when bound by budget and time. Other writers help with writing the scripts each has a little different view than GRRM. HBO has it's own parameters I am sure that have to be met as to adult content and expectations.

Sure I can nitpick the series but I would rather just enjoy it for the great television that it is.

[Ran]

Aemon,

Of course, but early on he was still popular as a morally imperfect but ultimately well-meaning everyman sort of hero.

Saharazade,

Honestly some of the nudity in the show I find a little OTT,

It would be those sequences we're criticizing. We review episode by episode, so we look at and remark upon those elements in those episodes which are worth remarking on. The continued view of one or more executive producers that there is a "pervert side" of the audience that must be catered to strikes me as something worth remarking on because it says something about how they view the audience and how they determine what goes up on the screen.

Of course, those who are comfortable with being likened to perverts are free to not read our reviews if they don't care to be reminded of the show runners' 's philosophy on such matters.

[PatrickStormborn]

I loved your review of this episode, as always, but am surprised you did not note that the show's version of Daario's arrival is dumbing Dany down in the same way they are dumbing Sansa down. By having Daario getting by Dany's Unsullied and Dothraki guards, they are making her look incompentent. By NOT showing how the barrel of wine was Danny's ruse to assist in attacking the defenders, they are removing her agency. This passage of time between her meeting with the sellswords and her attack destroys the notion of her being a conqueror just like the addition of time between Tyrion's notice to Sansa of their wedding removes the forcible and deceitful nature of the Lannister's treatment of Sansa.

Great post. I assume merging the Second Sons and the Stormcrows was done to enhance Daario's character, but really it just took away from Dany's victory. In the book, she beat the Second Sons, and she won the Stormcrows because Daario liked her, not because he chose not to kill her. They gave both victories to Daario instead of Dany, and based on the preview for next week it looks like he'll play a big role in helping her defeat Yunkai.

I agree that some of the nudity in this show is done so for titillation purposes only, but the books themselves are loaded with scenes that have nudity in them. They cut out as much as they add in. Of course some of what they cut out would lend more purpose to the show, but for various reasons some of those scenes are not shown. The Dany scene I thought was perfectly done, and didn't just show her nude for nudity sakes.

I thought the Dany scene was good too, but when I watched it I couldn't help but remember about the "pervert" producer.