Reviewing Second Sons

[King of the Road]

A hunting party consisting of four people lasting weeks is very unlikely.

It's Robert, when it comes to killing things it doesn't have to make sense. Added to which he may have come from a camp, taking only Renly, Lancel and Ser Barristan with him, in which case he could have remained in the woods for quite some time.

[Honourable Ser]

A hunting party consisting of four people lasting weeks is very unlikely.

I'd quote your last post but it's way too long for me to bother. Anyway, there's some really silly nit-picking going on there! e.g. Jorah questioning Dany, the lack of guards on Dany's tents... If you're going to look for mistakes like those then there's no point watching it! If these things are actually bothering you, I suggest you stick to the books because your head will explode after another season.

[protar]

I'd quote your last post but it's way too long for me to bother. Anyway, there's some really silly nit-picking going on there! e.g. Jorah questioning Dany, the lack of guards on Dany's tents... If you're going to look for mistakes like those then there's no point watching it! If these things are actually bothering you, I suggest you stick to the books because your head will explode after another season.

Why exactly is there no point watching if we're looking for those mistakes. Dany not having any guards at her tent is a glaring issue highlighted specifically by Daario being able to prance into her tent without any trouble. Would it be so hard to show him sneaking past some guards? Would it be so difficult to just mention Moat Cailin, or to have Jorah mention Qarth in turmoil in S2? They're valid nitpicks precisely because they're so small - it takes no effort to rectify them, D+D are just being lazy.

[PatrickStormborn]

I'd quote your last post but it's way too long for me to bother. Anyway, there's some really silly nit-picking going on there! e.g. Jorah questioning Dany, the lack of guards on Dany's tents... If you're going to look for mistakes like those then there's no point watching it! If these things are actually bothering you, I suggest you stick to the books because your head will explode after another season.

The lack of guards on Dany's tent is certainly NOT "silly nit-picking". Dany and Missandei were almost killed.

Here's the problem: I'm not even looking for mistakes. Most of the time they're very obvious.

Also I'm pretty sure we've had this discussion many times by this point. I watch the show because I watch a lot of TV shows. There are some parts of GoT that I find exceptional (the music, the scenery, the cast). And then there are parts that I don't like (time-wasting, poor characterisation, sexism and homophobia, poor dialogue). But these are issues where the show could and SHOULD be improved. The only way they will be improved is through criticism.

For me, watching the show is a mixed bag. It's a decent TV show, but it fails in areas that the books and truly great TV shows do not.

[Honourable Ser]

Why exactly is there no point watching if we're looking for those mistakes. Dany not having any guards at her tent is a glaring issue highlighted specifically by Daario being able to prance into her tent without any trouble. Would it be so hard to show him sneaking past some guards? Would it be so difficult to just mention Moat Cailin, or to have Jorah mention Qarth in turmoil in S2? They're valid nitpicks precisely because they're so small - it takes no effort to rectify them, D+D are just being lazy.

But if you're going to pick these things out and then moan about them it means you're not looking with a view to appreciate the show for what it is - some entertainment! I'm really not wanting to continue this argument because you clearly won't be swayed, but to me it's daft to look out for such little, and silly, points. Sure, there are some more 'glaring' points that I might be willing to give you, but things like no guards on a tent? I don't buy it.

[Cas Stark]

Why exactly is there no point watching if we're looking for those mistakes. Dany not having any guards at her tent is a glaring issue highlighted specifically by Daario being able to prance into her tent without any trouble. Would it be so hard to show him sneaking past some guards? Would it be so difficult to just mention Moat Cailin, or to have Jorah mention Qarth in turmoil in S2? They're valid nitpicks precisely because they're so small - it takes no effort to rectify them, D+D are just being lazy.

I agree. That's why I was awestruck by the craziness of the leech scene it was totally in your face "we don't care about logic even within our own show segment". I also agree that at least 75% of these inconsistencies could be dealt with via a sentence here or there or a tiny bit more attention to detail.

I will say I don't think the number of people shown on the hunt counts because Robert was always shown w/a ton of people around and so it would be a reasonable assumption that he would take a lot of people with him...the timing is a different thing.

The lack of anyone at Riverrun is a little more difficult to understand, especially when they have already shot the army previously so it wouldn't have been hard to add in a few scenes to remind the viewer that Robb has an army with him.

Letting the Frey army fall totally off the radar screen and then come back as if they were never there is really, really bad continuity.

[protar]

But if you're going to pick these things out and then moan about them it means you're not looking with a view to appreciate the show for what it is - some entertainment! I'm really not wanting to continue this argument because you clearly won't be swayed, but to me it's daft to look out for such little, and silly, points. Sure, there are some more 'glaring' points that I might be willing to give you, but things like no guards on a tent? I don't buy it.

I'm not going about looking for them. Either I notice them straight away or someone else points them out to me. In the end it doesn't matter. Even if I miss a plot hole, it's still there and the story would still be better without it.

[Honourable Ser]

The lack of guards on Dany's tent is certainly NOT "silly nit-picking". Dany and Missandei were almost killed.

Here's the problem: I'm not even looking for mistakes. Most of the time they're very obvious.

Also I'm pretty sure we've had this discussion many times by this point. I watch the show because I watch a lot of TV shows. There are some parts of GoT that I find exceptional (the music, the scenery, the cast). And then there are parts that I don't like (time-wasting, poor characterisation, sexism and homophobia, poor dialogue). But these are issues where the show could and SHOULD be improved. The only way they will be improved is through criticism.

For me, watching the show is a mixed bag. It's a decent TV show, but it fails in areas that the books and truly great TV shows do not.

From what I've seen you're one of the very few to pick up on the homophobia. Sexism I'll agree with you in places, whores are very badly treated in the show but then this could be seen as reflective of the medieval type setting. But then there are characters like Brienne, Olenna and Margaery who challenge the stereotypes and come out as very modern characters. Also, to me it is nit-picking. Dany and Missandei weren't killed and the storyline in no way suffered because no one prevented Daario from entering her tent.

[PatrickStormborn]

Daenerys Targaryen, the mother of dragons, breaker of chains, slayer of warlocks, and presumed Azor Ahai reborn, was almost killed because none of her bloodriders (most of whom have mysteriously disappeared... apparently they're not as important as her white Queensguard :rolleyes:) or 8000+ Unsullied were guarding her tent.

You don't have to be actively nit-picking to see that there's something wrong with that.

[Cas Stark]

From what I've seen you're one of the very few to pick up on the homophobia. Sexism I'll agree with you in places, whores are very badly treated in the show but then this could be seen as reflective of the medieval type setting. But then there are characters like Brienne, Olenna and Margaery who challenge the stereotypes and come out as very modern characters. Also, to me it is nit-picking. Dany and Missandei weren't killed and the storyline in no way suffered because no one prevented Daario from entering her tent.

It's stil lame, she is protected by Baristan Selmy, one of the most legendary knights in the history of Westeros and Dothraki blood riders and an army of unsullied.

But this guy watlzes in no problem.

[Honourable Ser]

Daenerys Targaryen, the mother of dragons, breaker of chains, slayer of warlocks, and presumed Azor Ahai reborn, was almost killed because none of her bloodriders (most of whom have mysteriously disappeared... apparently they're not as important as her white Queensguard :rolleyes:) or 8000+ Unsullied were guarding her tent.

You don't have to be actively nit-picking to see that there's something wrong with that.

Did the storyline suffer? No. Look, I'm really not willing to argue this further. You want to pick out the tiniest plot-holes, then that's fine - I'll shut up about how daft I think it is, because we're not getting anywhere here.

[PatrickStormborn]

But if you're going to pick these things out and then moan about them it means you're not looking with a view to appreciate the show for what it is - some entertainment! I'm really not wanting to continue this argument because you clearly won't be swayed, but to me it's daft to look out for such little, and silly, points. Sure, there are some more 'glaring' points that I might be willing to give you, but things like no guards on a tent? I don't buy it.

Maybe we just watch TV differently? With a show like GoT, I don't watch it purely for mind-dumbing "entertainment". The themes addressed in ASOIAF are designed to be challenging to readers; I'd expect the same from the TV show - particularly as it's a series about warfare and its effects on the innocents.

Did the storyline suffer? No. Look, I'm really not willing to argue this further. You want to pick out the tiniest plot-holes, then that's fine - I'll shut up about how daft I think it is, because we're not getting anywhere here.

It makes Dany and her protectors look incompetent, and worse of all it makes her look vulnerable. This is a huge problem when we consider how many enemies she has.

[Cas Stark]

The thing that is annoying and since no one is talking to me, LOL, I will end here, is that it would have been SO EASY to spent 10 seconds showing him slit the throats of some unsullied. But, this isn't even that high on my list, they have made numerous other much more serious logic gaffs, all easily correctable with a little dialogue or a few seconds extra on the scene that could have been taken away from Ros or the innumerable scenes of Tyrion and Shae and Varys and LF saying variations of the same thing, or good lord, that giant Pod whore house scene spread across the whole season would give almost an extra minute an episode for better storytelling.

[Khal-a-bunga]

Why exactly is there no point watching if we're looking for those mistakes. Dany not having any guards at her tent is a glaring issue highlighted specifically by Daario being able to prance into her tent without any trouble. Would it be so hard to show him sneaking past some guards? Would it be so difficult to just mention Moat Cailin, or to have Jorah mention Qarth in turmoil in S2? They're valid nitpicks precisely because they're so small - it takes no effort to rectify them, D+D are just being lazy.

How do you know that Daario had no trouble sneaking into Dany's tent? Why would he tell both Missandei and Dany not to scream if there weren't guards nearby? I think the point is to show how much of a badass Daario is, so why put any focus on her guard situation? It's not relevant to the scene. We see that he's traveling through her camp, so we already know that he's 'snuck in'. This is a nit-pick, plain and simple. The very idea that anyone would consider it a "glaring issue" is laughable, as I'm sure that 99% of the people who watched didn't even think about it, and the other 0.9% just filled in the blanks for themselves, using the information the show has provided (as people do with movies, television, and books all the time).

Why does it matter if they bring up Moat Cailin at all right now? It doesn't. And the status of Qarth following the assassination of the city leaders? Why is it relevant to the story at this point in time? These aren't even nit-picks, because none of these things truly detract from the show. Feel free to come up with your own explanation, or to imagine that these conversations took place off-screen. It's not "lazy" for D&D to ignore them, because there's nothing to ignore. We already know what happened in Qarth, and since this isn't a story about Qarth recovering from a massive political coup, I don't see how it's relevant. We know that the Warlocks of Qarth clearly aren't happy with Dany, so I'd say that that provides enough information to deduce that there are people in Qarth who are none too happy with how things went down (though they should place that blame at the foot of Pyat and Xaro). Why is anything else needed? So that we can understand that there are consequences to the actions of our characters? There are more important and plot-relevant ways to do so without looking back.

A "valid" nit-pick is a bit of an oxymoron, anyway, since a nit-pick is inconsequential by definition. Furthermore, it takes no effort to rectify these "mistakes", because they don't need to be rectified. None of this matters to the characters or the narrative at this point. I often hear people claim that "things don't make sense" with certain aspects of the show, and that's because people confuse their knowledge of the books with how things are playing out on the show. They are not one and the same, but separate entities. It amazes me that you're even able to say that the fact that the status of Qarth hasn't been mentioned following what took place there in the second season is a "valid" nit-pick, or that Daario sneaking into Dany's tent is a "glaring issue". In what universe? There's being critical, and then there's being critical. You made up your mind that you didn't like how the show was being handled a long time ago, and everything after just seems to be an extension of that ideology.

[protar]

The fact that they don't affect the main plot is a moot point. A good writer does not leave a trail of plot holes in their wake. Plain and simple.

And regardless of how small they are, how irrelevant, they're not plot holes or nit-picks or whatever you want to call them from the books. No adaptation should be adding flaws.

[Khal-a-bunga]

The fact that they don't affect the main plot is a moot point. A good writer does not leave a trail of plot holes in their wake. Plain and simple.

And regardless of how small they are, how irrelevant, they're not plot holes or nit-picks or whatever you want to call them from the books. No adaptation should be adding flaws.

But they aren't "plot holes" at all.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlotHole

And the fact that the books don't leave these matters behind, doesn't mean that they become "flaws" in the show. An author has the ability to spend as many pages as they like detailing the world, telling its histories and explaining its geography and cultures - the show can't do this. These just aren't important enough to be brought up, and if they were, they would be. What's so important about the situation is Qarth that it needs to be re-visited? We watched as Pyat Pree murdered the other members of The Thirteen in the coup that he and Xaro staged. We also saw Dany lock Xaro & Doreah in his own vault for betraying her. We saw what was important for the audience to see, as it pertains to the story of the show.

"But how was Dany able to just waltz into Xaro's palace if he had become the ruler of the city?"

Perhaps it had something to do with her dragons, who just burned a warlock to a crisp. Or her Dothraki warriors and Jorah. Maybe some combination of them both?

"But what about the political repercussions of what happened in Qarth?"

If they're important, they'll be brought up later. If not, then it likely doesn't matter. We can assume there was a power vacuum, and maybe things got a little crazy for a while. You can assume whatever you like, in the context of what you actually saw happen. To bring in material from the books to explain things complicates things more than they need to be - two different, but similar, stories are being told here. In any case, the lack of explanation in and of itself doesn't constitute a plot hole. It simply signifies a lack of explanation, and I don't know that there was a significant portion of the audience who would have ever been interested in the politics and culture of Qarth.

[protar]

But they aren't "plot holes" at all.

http://tvtropes.org/...p/Main/PlotHole

And the fact that the books don't leave these matters behind, doesn't mean that they become "flaws" in the show. An author has the ability to spend as many pages as they like detailing the world, telling its histories and explaining its geography and cultures - the show can't do this. These just aren't important enough to be brought up, and if they were, they would be. What's so important about the situation is Qarth that it needs to be re-visited? We watched as Pyat Pree murdered the other members of The Thirteen in the coup that he and Xaro staged. We also saw Dany lock Xaro & Doreah in his own vault for betraying her. We saw what was important for the audience to see, as it pertains to the story of the show.

"But how was Dany able to just waltz into Xaro's palace if he had become the ruler of the city?"

Perhaps it had something to do with her dragons, who just burned a warlock to a crisp. Or her Dothraki warriors and Jorah. Maybe some combination of them both?

"But what about the political repercussions of what happened in Qarth?"

If they're important, they'll be brought up later. If not, then it likely doesn't matter. We can assume there was a power vacuum, and maybe things got a little crazy for a while. You can assume whatever you like, in the context of what you actually saw happen. To bring in material from the books to explain things complicates things more than they need to be - two different, but similar, stories are being told here. In any case, the lack of explanation in and of itself doesn't constitute a plot hole. It simply signifies a lack of explanation, and I don't know that there was a significant portion of the audience who would have ever been interested in the politics and culture of Qarth.

Sure Dany probably could have forced her way into the manse with her dragons and her dothraki, but then why was the hue and cry not raised, why was Xaro abed? The alarm would have been raised. The idea that a dozen dothraki, used to charging in screaming, a girl with three dragons and an armoured knight could all sneak into his manse undetected is equally ludicrous.

The political situation in Qarth is very important because Dany is staying in what would probably be a very politically tumultuous city whilst she's been kicked out of Xaro's manse without her dragons and with most of her Dothraki dead. And like I say, it takes literally one line to explain this. Seeing as the whole invented plot line in Qarth was about Xaro gaining political power the notion that the politics are irrelevant is ridiculous.

To me there is simply no excuse for plot holes when Martin has laid out for D+D a wonderfully written plothole-less (or at least less plot holed) story for them. It literally does not get any easier to avoid them.

EDIT: I'm really not sure what the argument is in any case. If Jorah had said one line about what's going down in Qarth I wouldn't be complaining about it and you wouldn't be raising any objection to the line being used.

[protar]

Just to clarify my above point because I feel didn't express it well:

I would assume you don't think that Jorah explaining things in Qarth would make the show worse. Even if you would have been entirely indifferent to it. But if you are so objective as you claim, then the fact that such a line would have reduced complaints about the show - then it seems pretty clear it's a positive.

[Winter's Knight]

I agree with Pat and Cas.

I don't like to be treated like an idiot, see? Mel's leeching scene treats me like an idiot because it assumes that I won't remember what she said five minutes ago. Daario waltzing into Dany's camp treats me like an idiot because it assumes that I've forgotten that even in Qarth, her guards and handmaids had to be killed before XXD could get into her rooms. And you're telling me that Daario got past 8,000 Unsullied, her bloodriders, Jorah and Selmy with no problems whatsoever? Is he bloody Sue Reed?

GoT is a serious show that likes to deal with serious issues, It is not the Expendables or the Fast and Furious series or a trashy barbarian lit adaptation that's all about things going boom. And since it is itself like a serious show, I'm obviouisly going to complain about the times it gets so bloody lazy that it can't be bothered to keep continuity within the same episode.

[boojam]

I agree with Pat and Cas.

I don't like to be treated like an idiot, see? Mel's leeching scene treats me like an idiot because it assumes that I won't remember what she said five minutes ago. Daario waltzing into Dany's camp treats me like an idiot because it assumes that I've forgotten that even in Qarth, her guards and handmaids had to be killed before XXD could get into her rooms. And you're telling me that Daario got past 8,000 Unsullied, her bloodriders, Jorah and Selmy with no problems whatsoever? Is he bloody Sue Reed?

GoT is a serious show that likes to deal with serious issues, It is not the Expendables or the Fast and Furious series or a trashy barbarian lit adaptation that's all about things going boom. And since it is itself like a serious show, I'm obviouisly going to complain about the times it gets so bloody lazy that it can't be bothered to keep continuity within the same episode.

It's odd Dave and Dan do catch things like this, on the cometary when the DVD is released. Sometime one will catch , especially a continuity error and the other won't.

I make no big deal about the leaching, that one is ok with me.

The logic of the Daario scene bothers me.

If I calculate that in 60 min. (what happened to longer time scale episodes? , is one coming up, have some come and gone?)...

and I have 5 to 10 min. to do a narrative sequence should I not run that by the 'logic checker' to see if I need to add , say 30 seconds for a fix? I have had the feeling for seasons 2 and 3 that there is not enough 'script' staff, or that Bryan is not catching things, George seems out of the loop these days. I am not in the biz and I sure could not do what Dave and Dan do... but as amiable as these guys are , I sometimes get the impression , they are the guys in charge and bulldoze forward with hurried expediency. I don't know what their directors think, those guys should also be catching these things.

Now for a high quality show like this , I find they really don't make very many continuity or logic errors.

(In the movie biz a top notch director may even go back and re-shoot a sequence but I don't think HBO likes that , money you know.)

As for inventions and aesthetic structuring , when you have too much source material for 10 episodes, well , from my perspective most work, a few don't.

Lord! I would not want to be in D&D shoes if they get season's 5 and 6. Even tho they do a good job and have hired some top teleplay writers, I would go looking for some magician of a screen writer to help , if such a person exists.