Reviewing Second Sons

[Faint]

They've been able to get by so far with the whitewashing of Tyrion's character without causing severe damage to the narrative, but as the story progresses into his descent following his imprisonment, I don't see how they can continue without radically altering the story.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Well, yes? He can only work with the material the writers give him. They have largely eschewed some less savory aspects of Tyrion, and so he can't do anything with it.

That's fair. To be honest, though, I don't think showing Tyrion ordering the death of Symon, who blackmailing him and putting Shae's life at risk, or breaking Marillion's fingers, would change many opinions of him under the circumstances of those events anyway.

In any case, I think the malevolent rage he showed with the "wooden cock" scene sets his dark side up well enough as a foundation for the events in the second half of the ASOS.

[The Monkey]

That's fair. To be honest, though, I don't think showing Tyrion ordering the death of Symon, who blackmailing him and putting Shae's life at risk, or breaking Marillion's fingers, would change many opinions of him under the circumstances of those events anyway.

In any case, I think the malevolent rage he showed with the "wooden cock" scene sets his dark side up well enough as a foundation for the events in the second half of the ASOS.

Not to mention he admitted that he actually wanted to fuck a 14-year old. That's some pretty disturbing shit in the eyes of a modern audience.

[The Storm Queen]

I can say for myself the books are better. It seems to me they have to dumb it down and spoon feed it to the audience. I think having Sansa kneel for Tyrion summed it up as a loss for her character, however I do understand it if you have only seen the show. The nudity thats so preveleant could be excluded for more story line but honestly they would probably lose viewers thats just how people are.

Breaking Bad is an incredible successful show and the Wire was highly acclaimed. Yet, both shows (especially the former) have been far more economical with their sex scenes than GoT. Plus they both were more reluctant to spell everything out for the viewer.

To me GoT had all the ingredients of a great show: a talented cast, attention to details (the Intro!) and a very good source material but imho the writers blew it big time: Some character became shadows of their book counterparts (Sansa, Cat, Robb) or even parodies (Loras). Others were whitewashed so much (Tywin, Cersei, Tyrion) that their future behaviour will make little sense to me.

Concerning the sex scenes: I have no issues with these in principle but if I want to watch attractive people having sex I watch porn. GoT is struggling enough already with condensing the book storylines. scenes like the one with Pod cost time that should have been invested in characters and storylines that are actually important in the books.

That is sure a bland list.

Kind of a pipsqueak compared to a middle ages high born like Vlad III, Prince of Wallachia.

I guess one would not call Joseph Stalin a 'gray' figure but if his son Vasily had of committed fratricide early , would have saved millions of lives (no even due to war).

Wow, that is damning with praise! If you have to include Stalin in a character´s defence, you did something wrong.

[pantouflas]

And why has the show established this? Yes, fan service. :P

Ah well, I thought it was shown at one point this series (ep. 3?) when Melisandre touched Stannis's Baratheon, he didn't even flinch, and then she said "you are too weak for this" or something to that effect.. What was the point of this scene if not to hammer home the point that she needs royal sex for her particular brand of magick?

A point reinforced by her getting naked and doing googly eyes to every man she meets, I might add. Including Maester Cressen :) I don't know, that's how I read the Stannis interaction anyway.. Doesn't mean it's a good point of course.

[boojam]

Wow, that is damning with praise! If you have to include Stalin in a character´s defence, you did something wrong.

I am as capable of hyperbole as George R R Martian.

[Raja]

For me, the nudity is okay if it serves a specific plot point or gives us exposition, Game of Thrones, being a show cannot do this as well as the books do as we go straight into the character's inner monologue. That LF brothel scene is season 1 was very over the top, however it did foreshadow what happened with regards to Ned/ LF and what LF is all about. It was a fairly important scene to get in the mind of LF. Which is why the Melisandre scene bothered me, because for me, it added nothing. Mel's power move seems reduced down to shrugging her clothes off, and I question if they could do something better than that. Similarly, that scene with Theon, it added almost nothing to me, the dialogue went on for a bit too long and the camera really did linger on the women for a touch too long ( this could be mostly because of the way the episode was directed than anything else)

I like to ask myself why these scenes are there or if they are adding anything new for the viewer, and some scenes legitimately do add something which is why I can maybe see why they are there. But some of them really do not need to be there. On another note, completely agree with the white washing of Tyrion, the character has become fairly boring on the show.

[Conchobar]

For me, the nudity is okay if it serves a specific plot point or gives us exposition, Game of Thrones, being a show cannot do this as well as the books do as we go straight into the character. That LF brothel scene is season 1 was very over the top, however it did foreshadow what happened with regards to Ned/ LF and what LF is all about. Even though in that scene the nudity is quite over the top, it was a fairly important scene to get in the mind of LF. Which is why the Melisandre scene bothered me, because for me, it added nothing. Mel's power move seems reduced down to shrugging her clothes off, and I question if they could do something better than that. Similarly, that scene with Theon, it added almost nothing to me, the dialogue went on for a bit too long and the camera really did linger on the women for a touch too long ( this could be mostly because of the way the episode was directed than anything else)

I like to ask myself why these scenes are there or if they are adding anything new for the viewer, and some scenes legitimately do add something which is why I can maybe see why they are there. But some of them really do not need to be there. On another note, completely agree with the white washing of Tyrion, the character has become fairly boring on the show.

I agree that the nudity in these scenes didn't add anything to the particular scenes but it is HBO afterall, it is nearly a given. I just wish they had done something more similar to Rome in terms of nudity where it served a purpose most of the time.

[King of the Road]

I agree that the nudity in these scenes didn't add anything to the particular scenes but it is HBO afterall, it is nearly a given. I just wish they had done something more similar to Rome in terms of nudity where it served a purpose most of the time.

Nah, Rome was just as bad as GoT for pointless nudity. Take the scene between Pullo and Gaia, they could have just cut away, but instead had a ridiculously kinky sex scene. It's still a great show, one of my all time favourites, but it's just as bad as GoT. It just never got the recognition it deserved from a mass audience and so no one really remembers the nudity in that.

[boojam]

Nah, Rome was just as bad as GoT for pointless nudity. Take the scene between Pullo and Gaia, they could have just cut away, but instead had a ridiculously kinky sex scene. It's still a great show, one of my all time favourites, but it's just as bad as GoT. It just never got the recognition it deserved from a mass audience and so no one really remembers the nudity in that.

Exactly!

There was in context and out of context nudity ... A wonderful show... HBO regrets what it did with it.

They have said they were going to do ... I Claudis .... We shall see.

[Dragonstoned]

Exactly!

There was in context and out of context nudity ... A wonderful show... HBO regrets what it did with it.

They have said they were going to do ... I Claudis .... We shall see.

Off topic, but do you think it was maybe a good thing they cancelled Rome when they did? I mean most of the great characters were dead (including Mark fucking Anthony!!) and unless they somehow replaced them I don't see how it could have reached the heights of s1 and 2.

[boojam]

Off topic, but do you think it was maybe a good thing they cancelled Rome when they did? I mean most of the great characters were dead (including Mark fucking Anthony!!) and unless they somehow replaced them I don't see how it could have reached the heights of s1 and 2.

Well, historically , if they had of had 12 episodes elaboration of events of Octavian's conquest would have been interesting.

Between roughly 30 BC to Octavian's death not a lot went on in Rome , unless you liked watching buildings being built.

Tho there was a fair amount of frontier Empire action , our back street hero' s would have had something to do.

Robert Graves novels pick up the action at about the right point.

Tho , as is known now , Graves got Livia totally wrong , I suppose they will keep that piece of soap opera.

[Alia of the knife]

They can do I Claudius, but there will never be a better Claudius than Derek Jacobi, or a better Caligula than John Hurt IMHO.

Also, while they're at it, why not just do "War of the Roses,"

[Mark Antony]

Breaking Bad is an incredible successful show and the Wire was highly acclaimed. Yet, both shows (especially the former) have been far more economical with their sex scenes than GoT. Plus they both were more reluctant to spell everything out for the viewer.

To me GoT had all the ingredients of a great show: a talented cast, attention to details (the Intro!) and a very good source material but imho the writers blew it big time: Some character became shadows of their book counterparts (Sansa, Cat, Robb) or even parodies (Loras). Others were whitewashed so much (Tywin, Cersei, Tyrion) that their future behaviour will make little sense to me.

Concerning the sex scenes: I have no issues with these in principle but if I want to watch attractive people having sex I watch porn. GoT is struggling enough already with condensing the book storylines. scenes like the one with Pod cost time that should have been invested in characters and storylines that are actually important in the books.

:agree:

Off topic, but do you think it was maybe a good thing they cancelled Rome when they did? I mean most of the great characters were dead (including Mark fucking Anthony!!) and unless they somehow replaced them I don't see how it could have reached the heights of s1 and 2.

IIRC they were gonna do 2 full seasons of Mark Antony vs Octavian.

[A Man Has Said]

I have a problem with producers who twist the story to cater to audience members they consider to be perverts. It's rather belittling, and I'm amazed so many people are happy to embrace being held in such low regard.

I'm surprised to see how many people responded to this without getting the key fact that it isn't the nudity you objected to, but twisting the story to provide an excuse for the nudity. I feel the same way. As Linda says in the review, they could do the whole show in the nude and it wouldn't bother me if they stuck with the story as written, or as close as production constraints allow.

I think that generally the shows screenwriters suffer from a bit of hubris, to be honest. They're producing this series on the back of GRRM's great fantasy writing, but have big enough egos to think they can improve on that.

Mind you, there are a few scenes that they do a nice job of condensing things, but not many. (An example is the scene between Tywin and Jaime where Tywin is skinning a stag.)

[ismaris]

I'm surprised to see how many people responded to this without getting the key fact that it isn't the nudity you objected to, but twisting the story to provide an excuse for the nudity. I feel the same way. As Linda says in the review, they could do the whole show in the nude and it wouldn't bother me if they stuck with the story as written, or as close as production constraints allow.

I think that generally the shows screenwriters suffer from a bit of hubris, to be honest. They're producing this series on the back of GRRM's great fantasy writing, but have big enough egos to think they can improve on that.

Mind you, there are a few scenes that they do a nice job of condensing things, but not many. (An example is the scene between Tywin and Jaime where Tywin is skinning a stag.)

This. I'm fine with cosmetic changes here and there to sell this series to the 18-49 male demographic (or whatever HBO is after), but when you start modifying the essence of pretty important characters, I think you're in danger of betraying the novels and the fanbase. I think Tyrion and Shea are both good examples of the screenwriters/producers walking this very dangerous tightrope. This season, I would say Shea has way overstepped her character's bounds.

[Raja]

I feel like taking a liberty and diverting away from the book canon is a good thing when it makes things better. Examples being, giving Marc Addy more of a role in the first season and of course, making shae a less annoying character than she is in the books. I think the show did those two things better than Martin did in his books. As long as it works, I'm okay with it. But as soon as you're doing things which don't work well at all, then you've got a problem.

[ismaris]

I feel like taking a liberty and diverting away from the book canon is a good thing when it makes things better. Examples being, giving Marc Addy more of a role in the first season and of course, making shae a less annoying character than she is in the books. I think the show did those two things better than Martin did in his books. As long as it works, I'm okay with it. But as soon as you're doing things which don't work well at all, then you've got a problem.

I'm not sure she's less annoying in the show, though. In the books she is a rather simple person. She uses her sexuality, which is pretty much all she has, to wield power over Tyrion. In the show, she seems petulant, and frankly, a bit too smart.

[King of the Road]

Off topic, but do you think it was maybe a good thing they cancelled Rome when they did? I mean most of the great characters were dead (including Mark fucking Anthony!!) and unless they somehow replaced them I don't see how it could have reached the heights of s1 and 2.

Meh there was some interesting stuff during the reign of Octavian, it could have gone on. But they really should have spun it out into more seasons that they did.

Season 1: Up to the death of Pompey.

Season 2: Death of Caesar

Season 3: Death of Brutus and Cassius

Season 4: Deaths of Mark Antony and Cleopatra

Now that would have been fantastic. Such as shame it got cancelled when it did, it's well on my top 5 TV shows of all time.

[Dragonstoned]

Breaking Bad is an incredible successful show and the Wire was highly acclaimed. Yet, both shows (especially the former) have been far more economical with their sex scenes than GoT. Plus they both were more reluctant to spell everything out for the viewer.

To me GoT had all the ingredients of a great show: a talented cast, attention to details (the Intro!) and a very good source material but imho the writers blew it big time: Some character became shadows of their book counterparts (Sansa, Cat, Robb) or even parodies (Loras). Others were whitewashed so much (Tywin, Cersei, Tyrion) that their future behaviour will make little sense to me.

Good post, and that's the thing that really surprises me about the show: there's so much that's great like you have listed and the writers have excellent source material - why change it unless the adaptation process demands it? Condensement and simplification I get and it is a lot more faithful than pretty much every other ecranisation of literature, but it shouldn't be judged against those - I do not understand how someone who has read ASoIaF would not try to stick as closely to it as possible when adapting it for screen, maybe it's just beyond my comprehension.

IIRC they were gonna do 2 full seasons of Mark Antony vs Octavian.

Would have been worth it to have Anthony around for another season, not sure how they would have found enough stuff for them to fight over though. Plus Octavian was just a difficult character to care about as a viewer (like him more with the younger actor in s1).

Meh there was some interesting stuff during the reign of Octavian, it could have gone on. But they really should have spun it out into more seasons that they did.

Season 1: Up to the death of Pompey.

Season 2: Death of Caesar

Season 3: Death of Brutus and Cassius

Season 4: Deaths of Mark Antony and Cleopatra

Now that would have been fantastic. Such as shame it got cancelled when it did, it's well on my top 5 TV shows of all time.

Aye that would have been fantastic. Probably the best show ever for deaths of characters? Those you listed were all so well done (maybe not Cassius and Brutus which were kinda meh) and add Cicero too. Even the more minor ones like Cato were still poignant.