[Book Spoilers] Sansa and Tyrion

[Wouter]

Allthough I'm 100% on Sansa's side in regards to the wedding in the books, I have no problems with the way they showed it on the TV series.

The circumstances are different.

-Tyrion told her about the marriage almost as soon as he knew, he didn't wait until 5 minutes before (and in the show he also didn't bother to make it appear she "had a choice" by mentioning Lancel as an option, allthough the other Lannisters would not have accepted that at the point he made the "offer)

-Tyrion asked her to kneel instead of tugging at her skirt; not only is this more polite, it also makes it harder for Sansa to do as if she didn't notice or understood. Book Sansa would have done as asked, too, if she had been asked (or commanded). It should also be noted that Sansa did see that Joffrey took the stool away, and she didn't kneel of her own volition - that's why I think Tyrion asking her was important.

-In the show, a footstool was already present but Joffrey took it away deliberately. Sansa has little reason to indulge, more than necessary, in Joffrey's sadism.

Sansa may not have shown strength by not kneeling, but then it would have been inappropriate under those (different from the book) circumstances. That she had to be prompted to kneel is enough already. She did show strength, again, in how graceful and controlled she was, unlike Cersei who lost her shit once more. Sansa is well suited to the role of queen or lady of a great castle, way better than Cersei is.

I also liked it that Tyrion was unable to drape the cloak around her shoulders until she actually agreed to kneel. Showing that his "protection" is a sham until she actually willingly accepts it - which may or may not happen in the future (not necessarily in marriage).

The wedding was also sufficiently awkward for both. Having Tyrion so drunk was an extra reason for Sansa to be embarrassed and unhappy, so I'm glad they did that, as the audience may relate to her more. Also liked little touches like Tywin being annoyed at people laughing at a Lannister - not explicitly shown in the equivalent book chapter but so very much in-character.

The "one heart, one flesh, one soul, now and forever" sounded rather definite. I wonder if one possible reason for the softening of the marriage is that it may not be quite over yet.

[gash]

i thought it was a great scene with little difference to the book. i know tyrion's detractors were desperate for this scene to be a "whitewash" but it was not at all.

[Newstar]

The "one heart, one flesh, one soul, now and forever" sounded rather definite. I wonder if one possible reason for the softening of the marriage is that it may not be quite over yet.

Anything's possible, I guess. I did notice that in the scenes after the wedding, Sansa was sporting a wedding ring on her ring finger (she didn't have a wedding ring in the books). She's also wearing it in the HBO still from 3x10. If she ditches that ring when she escapes King's Landing (or before), that will probably a strong hint from the writers that the marriage will be annulled and/or that Sansa and Tyrion will never meet again.

[David Selig]

I think what you guys are calling 'whitewashing' is really just a matter of not being able to fit everything into the show. They don't need to make us 'like him more' because Tyrion is also quite likeable in the books... at least the first 3!

Come on, A lot of Tyrion's morally objectionable acts would be easy to film and won't take much time at all. Like breaking Marillion's fingers. Or even easier - adding a mention that he took part in Tysha's rape. Etc.

[Wouter]

Anything's possible, I guess. I did notice that in the scenes after the wedding, Sansa was sporting a wedding ring on her ring finger (she didn't have a wedding ring in the books). If she ditches that ring when she escapes King's Landing (or before), that will probably a strong hint from the writers that the marriage will be annulled and/or that Sansa and Tyrion will never meet again.

It may not be a wedding ring, per se. From promo material, it seems that Cersei will give her the ring, possibly to mark Sansa as Lannister "property" in yet another way (I very much doubt Sansa will like Cersei's apparent "gesture", if that is what happens). I fully expect Sansa to ditch it.

[Newstar]

It may not be a wedding ring, per se. From promo material, it seems that Cersei will give her the ring, possibly to mark Sansa as Lannister "property" in yet another way (I very much doubt Sansa will like Cersei's apparent "gesture", if that is what happens). I fully expect Sansa to ditch it.

That's what I thought before 3x08, since the 3x10 still showed Cersei with what looked like an open jewelry box, but in the wedding feast and wedding night scenes, Sansa is already wearing the ring (if you get the chance to rewatch, watch closely as she's swigging the wine), meaning she acquired it as part of the wedding ceremony. So Sansa already has the ring by the end of 3x08.

[Arianne Flint]

If she ditches that ring when she escapes King's Landing (or before), that will probably a strong hint from the writers that the marriage will be annulled and/or that Sansa and Tyrion will never meet again.

Nice catch! I was so shocked with the handling of the wedding scene that I didn't even notice.

I thought the previous episode's scene with Margery and Sansa felt forced, and would have loved if they had some close-ups of Sansa's reactions during the wedding. Seeing everything from the male gaze makes me think D&D don't really understand some of the nuances that make the book series great.

The wedding does highlight one of my great disappointments in the TV series; with the exception of R'hllor, most of the religious context that Westeros is set in has vanished. I really felt that the religions and the religious conflict was one of the more interesting aspects of the book series, and definitely helped understand some characters' motivations and POV better.

[WiDMNDBAMMD]

I agree, the Lannisters are definitely arrogant enough and Joffrey just insane enough to flaunt his parentage even if just in a private threat to Sansa. I guess my real question is, at what point did he change from believing Robert was his father to totally embracing the fact he's a product of incest?

I don't think he does. He has a suspicion. Joffrey is heralded as Joffrey of Houses Baratheon and Lannister. His sigil is a stag and lion facing eachother. Joffrey puts his mother's house as equal to his father's house. This is pointed out in the books very clearly. In the show not so much.

Sansa views Joffrey as a Lannister as well, she points it out to Arya and Ned season one, and to Margaery last episode.

Since there is a second escape plan, it will have to be introduced at some point (I'm thinking 3x10, since it looks like Sansa and the rest of the KL crew sit out 3x09), by someone. (The "someone" is a bit tricky, since Littlefinger's still in the Vale, Dontos has been MIA since Season 2, Ros is dead, and Shae is an unlikely ally for Littlefinger since she trusts him about as far as she can throw him, but it will have to be someone.) So I'm guessing Sansa will be approached by someone in 3x10 with the new plan to get her out of KL.

What if she just finds the note that says "come to the Godswood tonight alone if you wish to escape Kingslanding" ?

That works without having to introduce anyone to the story.

[silentwanderer]

i thought it was a great scene with little difference to the book.

The key difference to me is that Tyrion's relationship with Shae prevents him from any attachment to Sansa.

And Sansa has no idea her husband isn't attracted to her.

[Wouter]

That's what I thought before 3x08, since the 3x10 still showed Cersei with what looked like an open jewelry box, but in the wedding feast and wedding night scenes, Sansa is already wearing the ring, meaning she acquired it as part of the wedding ceremony. So Sansa already has the ring by the end of 3x08.

I missed that. Still, she will ditch the ring, she can't wear it after events in (early) S4. And it's not like it has sentimental value to keep, either.

Arianne Flint; we also got a hearttree in this episode. I'm positive the Seven and the Old Gods will be further explored, in due time.

[WiDMNDBAMMD]

Anything's possible, I guess. I did notice that in the scenes after the wedding, Sansa was sporting a wedding ring on her ring finger (she didn't have a wedding ring in the books). She's also wearing it in the HBO still from 3x10. If she ditches that ring when she escapes King's Landing (or before), that will probably a strong hint from the writers that the marriage will be annulled and/or that Sansa and Tyrion will never meet again.

I think they'll probably use the ring like they did the doll that Ned Stark gave her as a present season one(that she still has :crying: )

Meaning when she looks at the ring she'll be wondering about Tyrion, she obviously can't wear the ring once she goes into hiding with a different identity.

[Wouter]

The key difference to me is that Tyrion's relationship with Shae prevents him from any attachment to Sansa.

And Sansa has no idea her husband isn't attracted to her.

I actually think he is. In the show, he was still hurt when Sansa said "what if ... never?". Much like in the books, only in the books Shae doesn't care. But her character is very different on the show, where she seems to generally love Tyrion and want to marry him.

Shae noticed the sheets were clean. Would that mean Tywin won't hear immediately, or is there a chance Shae is putting on a really good act and actually spying for Tywin?

[Newstar]

I missed that. Still, she will ditch the ring, she can't wear it after events in (early) S4. And it's not like it has sentimental value to keep, either.

Maybe she leaves it behind at the PW feast and that's how Tyrion in the aftermath of Joffrey's death realizes she's gone? That could work.

And Sansa has no idea her husband isn't attracted to her.

TV Tyrion is attracted to Sansa to some extent, although he feels guilty about it (David Benioff said as much on the most recent Inside the Episode segment), which is why he makes a big show of insisting Sansa's a child, claiming he has no desire for her, etc. etc. Loyalty to Shae had nothing to do with his decision to refuse to consummate the marriage.

[Wouter]

What if she just finds the note that says "come to the Godswood tonight alone if you wish to escape Kingslanding" ?

That works without having to introduce anyone to the story.

The show runners have alluded to the return of Ser Dontos (presumably to pick-up his original role from the books, the parts that still matter at least). But that may also be postponed to next season, I suppose; this season's finale could also work.

[Buckwheat]

I think Tyrion told himself that he wants Sansa. He told Shae he thinks her pretty and he said to Sansa he would do it.

I actually think he is. In the show, he was still hurt when Sansa said "what if ... never?". Much like in the books, only in the books Shae doesn't care. But her character is very different on the show, where she seems to generally love Tyrion and want to marry him.

Shae noticed the sheets were clean. Would that mean Tywin won't hear immediately, or is there a chance Shae is putting on a really good act and actually spying for Tywin?

I do not think she is putting on an act and will go tell Tywin about the sheets now. Their relationship was proved so many times. And Shae even threatened to another maid in s2 in order to protect Sansa, so she even cares for her.

[Arianne Flint]

Wouter - we've seen heart trees before, but I highly doubt they'll ever deeply explore any of it (old gods or the new). Very similar to how they mention maester's chains but never what it really represents to the maester. To the non-reader, it doesn't mean much of anything. I think the religions are different enough and don't really have much analogy to current religions that they would have been worth exploring in season 1, but now that we're in season 3 and it doesn't get discussed except for some created scenes between Melisandre and Thoros, I don't think we're going to get much of anything that will be very satisfying.

Buckwheat - I agree. TV Shae seems extremely devoted to Sansa's wellbeing, which is something I didn't quite get from her in the books.

[Newstar]

I think Tyrion told himself that he wants Sansa. He told Shae he thinks her pretty and he said to Sansa he would do it.

He said "I can't" and then quickly corrected that to "I could, but I won't." I'm guessing he wanted to clarify that he was physically capable of doing it (despite being really drunk) and not impotent or anything, but that he wasn't going to.

The distinction seems to be an important one, since in the books when Lysa asks whether Tyrion failed to consummate the marriage because he was incapable, Sansa is quick to deny it.

Shae noticed the sheets were clean. Would that mean Tywin won't hear immediately

This is a good question. In the books, Tyrion believed everyone had found out about the marriage not being consummated through Sansa blabbing to her handmaidens (Cersei's spies). In the show, absent Tyrion or Sansa running off at the mouth, it seems like Shae is the one who would have the power to communicate this information or not. In the post-RW conversation with Tywin in the books, Tywin reminds Tyrion he needs to consummate his marriage. In the show, though, unless Tyrion, Sansa, or Shae spills the beans about the wedding night resulting in non-consummation, how would he know that they hadn't? Even knowing that they were sleeping in separate beds wouldn't necessarily mean anything, as they still could have theoretically consummated the marriage the night of the wedding and continued to sleep apart.

I'll be very curious to see if Tywin brings the non-consummation up in 3x10 as something he learned about without Tyrion telling him. (They could deviate the books and have Tywin straight-up ask Tyrion point blank whether or not he's consummated the marriage yet, of course.)

And Shae even threatened to another maid in s2 in order to protect Sansa, so she even cares for her.

Eh, there are limits to her caring. She knew Loras was gay and didn't say anything. She didn't express one word of outrage or anger to Tyrion on Sansa's behalf in relation to the engagement; it was all about her. And we were reminded in 3x06 that Shae warned Sansa not to trust her.

[Minsc]

I think what you guys are calling 'whitewashing' is really just a matter of not being able to fit everything into the show. They don't need to make us 'like him more' because Tyrion is also quite likeable in the books... at least the first 3!

And yet they have actually added more scenes in which to make him look better, that doesn't compute if they are being forced to drop material to fit everything into the show.

Not to mention their adding in of useless stuff like the Ramsay-Theon torture interlude or Podrick Payne is a sex god sketch that felt the need to add in for no reason.

[bobbybuilderton]

I have stated in other places that I'm fairly certain Podrick Payne:Sex God is an attempt to make him chasing after Tyrion more believable. They wanted to build that relationship that they have more. That's how I get past it anyway. Dunno how true it is.

[Wouter]

I have stated in other places that I'm fairly certain Podrick Payne:Sex God is an attempt to make him chasing after Tyrion more believable. They wanted to build that relationship that they have more. That's how I get past it anyway. Dunno how true it is.

I suspect the reason is merely "the pervert side of the audience" and the producer "who looks out for them". It's a HBO thing.