[SPOILERS] Shae

[Damar]

1. Breaking Marillion's Fingers

You mean the guy who played his harp to prevent anyone from hearing Sansa's pleas for help when Lysa was about to push her out of the Moon Door?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Shae doesn't want Tyrion to consumate his marriage because she wants him to keep paying her. Simple as that.

So? Are you saying that married lords don't sleep with whores? Or have mistresses? Surely it must be a few. And considering how terrible and forced this marriage is, it would make all the sense.

Tyrion does offer Shae a chance to be his mistress, not only his whore: he offered him a house, protection, even children (in books I think he wants to find her a husband), but Shae refused because that would mean her to leave and be away from him. She also suggested them both leave, twice, and Tyrion refused as well. The true is that Tyrion doesn't want to stop being a Lord, and Shae doesn't want to be Tyrion's second option. Both are being stupid.

[Newstar]

Shae doesn't want Tyrion to consumate his marriage because she wants him to keep paying her. Simple as that.

There have been several suggestions in the show that Shae has genuine feelings for Tyrion above and beyond wanting to keep him as a paying client: begging Tyrion to escape to Essos with her (twice) even though that would likely result in a big downgrade in living for her, her refusal to barricade herself with Sansa in her room in 2x09 because she needs to say goodbye to someone, and so on.

There's been nothing to indicate that Shae is currently manipulating Tyrion into believing that she loves him or that her feelings are not genuine. There have been hints that Shae will sell out Sansa and Tyrion when the chips are down (mostly Sansa, whom she warned not to trust anyone and who sweetly stated that she trusted Shae even though Shae had warned her against it), but that's not the same thing as claiming that she doesn't love Tyrion and never loved Tyrion, which isn't the case in the show. I cannot see the show pulling a "Mwahaha I never loved you, you poor sap," because that isn't in keeping with the way TV Shae has been characterized. It makes her different from Book Shae, but a lot of characters are different from their book selves (Tyrion, for one).

[baxter]

I always assumed once Tyrion is in the stockades that Tywin swoops in and basically takes her into his charge and threatens her to betray Tyrion. I haven't done a re-read though so that's a thought from 3 years ago.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

I've always interpreted Shae as being someone that was maybe hired by Tywin to spy/betray Tyrion from the very beginning (and that's one of the reasons why she's sharing Tywin's bed in the end). I've always interpreted her "love" for Tyrion as just being a role that she is playing and there's no reason to think Show-Shae is any different. She reveals her true colors in the end, and Tyrion kills her for it.

I agree with that. In the books she never hesitated to tell Tyrion that she was whore, he was the only one surprised by her actions. TV is a bit more sympathetic, however, I still do not trust her. A jealous whore is simply ridiculous to me.

[baxter]

Nah, Bronn and Tyrion are going to split up over money and status, like in the books. The fact that Bronn would do anything for money has been highlighted plenty of times.

As for Tyrion killing Shae... I don't know. It's easier to send a good character on the dark side than the other way round, I'm not sure they'll miss the opportunity.

I mean, Shae basically lies to get Tyrion killed by his trial, so I see no reason that they'll make Tyrion forgive her. They already showed us the chain a few episodes back. I think everyone in the audience is going to want to see her go down in flames. Not to mention the scene between Tywin and Tyrion in the privvy will be amazing just from the dialogue, and when Tyrion kills Tywin everyone will rejoice.

[WiDMNDBAMMD]

So this episode we see the Tyrion-Sansa wedding and of course everyone expects Tyrion to consummate the marriage, which he doesn't. Shae is of course upset at Tyrion for getting married and having sex with a "little girl" and not staying faithful to her (I guess).

BUT THEN when Shae goes to change the sheets and realizes that Tyrion has not had sex with her she seems proud of him and does not seem to bear any bad will to him. SO HOW IN THE WORLD WILL:

Shae betray Tyrion by witnessing against him in the trial and sleeping with Tywin?

Let me know how you guys think this will play out.

I think that this allows for Shae and Tyrion to continue their relationship for the time being. Which I figured it would. Shae knows that Tyrion is not sleeping with Sansa even though his father ordered him to. Tyrion defied his father once again for her(took her to KL and now is not sleeping with Sansa because Shae pointed out "your father does not rule the world" )

But down the road it doesn't change anything. If Tyrion is accused of murder he will lose the ability to "protect" Shae which was their original agreement. Shae will be questioned extensively about Sansa's disappearance and Cersei will discover the truth about being Tyrion's whore. She already started to figure it out when they were held up with all the other High Born Ladies in Maegor's holdfast.

Cersei will make certain promises to Shae so that she'll testify against Tyrion, Cersei will back out of those promises accusing her of knowing where Sansa Stark is. Shae will turn to Tywin to try and get her "golden chains" that Tyrion gave her back.... do we see where this is heading now?

If Shae decides to become a Eddard Stark and die for Tyrion instead of lying it just doesn't make any sense.

[mrs_serpounce]

1. Breaking Marillion's Fingers

2. Arming the Vale Clans (despite knowing that however innocent he was, his Brother had tried to kill Bran).

3. Thinking Mash Heddle's murder was quite funny.

4. Poisoning Cersei

5. Kidnapping and threatening to Rape Tommen

6. Issuing threats about how Sansa would be treated in front of the entire Court when she was being beaten daily as it was (that scene on the show would have gone a long way to explaining why Sansa wouldn't trust him).

7. Giving the Antler Men to Joff to play with.

8. Letting his Wildlings run riot in KL.

9. Slapping Shae

10. His women issues

11. Dismissing the NW and Alister Thorne.

Etc etc.

Again, we'll have to agree to disagree on "majorly horrible." Note I said majorly, not just "bad things."

The things I will agree are "bad things":

Slapping Shae, letting the Clans run riot (Show!Tyrion did that too), breaking Marillon's fingers. Possibly the worst: giving the Antler Men to Joff, if he actually fully understood the ramifications of what that meant.

The rest of that, I would call greeeeeey. "Women issues?" Sure, they're there, but that's a psychological makeup issue rather than an outright "bad thing." (We won't get into the morality of whoring, because Show!Tyrion does that frequently.) Tommen was used as a pawn, yes. Did he harm him? No, and he himself even says in the novel that he's not sure he could do it, if it came to that. Arming the Vale clans? Act of war. (Show!Tyrion did that, too, BTW.) Poisoning his sister... depends on what you think of his sister. (Me? Not much.) Dismissing Aliser Thorne... depends on what you think of Thorne. (Me? Not much. Also, another Show!Tyrion move.)

Issuing threats? *Thinking* a murder is funny? You call both those "majorly horrible"? (PS: Show!Tyrion also issues threats and finds killing funny.)

Like I said, "Singer Stew" is what starts it pushing much further toward the black side of things. There are certain justifications that can be thrown out there, but they're still terrible actions. Up to this point: Yes. bad things. But he hasn't really begun a real descent yet.

[mrs_serpounce]

You mean the guy who played his harp to prevent anyone from hearing Sansa's pleas for help when Lysa was about to push her out of the Moon Door?

That. Also, Alliser Thorne was SUCH an upstanding guy amirite?

[David Selig]

You mean the guy who played his harp to prevent anyone from hearing Sansa's pleas for help when Lysa was about to push her out of the Moon Door?

What's this got to do with anything? It's not like Tyrion was punishing Marillion for something he'd do a year later....

[wizardface]

There is a lot of time before the trial. Im guessing that season 4 will have some build up to Shae's betrayal.

[WiDMNDBAMMD]

Like I said, "Singer Stew" is what starts it pushing much further toward the black side of things. There are certain justifications that can be thrown out there, but they're still terrible actions. Up to this point: Yes. bad things. But he hasn't really begun a real descent yet.

Did you notice that Gendry made a reference to flea bottom's "bowl of brown" ? Saying they knew the meat wasn't chicken? I hope that might foreshadow Simon Silvertongue or the fact that people in flea bottom die and get put into stew.

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

Show shae has feelings for Tyrion, but I think she'll betray him because she will feel abandoned after his marriage with Sansa

[mbuehner]

What if Shae seduced Tywin to try to convince him to save Tyrions life. Oops!

[Stannis the Wight]

Shae needs to die already. Too bad we have to put up with another season of her.

[franko99]

Eh, I'd buy that if in the runup to the wedding Shae had made one comment implying she was outraged on Sansa's behalf and not merely her own, but she didn't. She was jealous and threatened, but she was unconcerned with Sansa's fate of being an innocent child sold off into marriage except to the extent that she would herself be affected by it. Shae's anger was about her situation and only her situation..somewhat bizarrely, since in 3x02 she was all protective of Sansa's virtue when it came to Littlefinger and whatnot.

Her glee over the non-consummation does seem a bit delusional, since Tyrion's decision to refuse to consummate the marriage had absolutely nothing to do with Shae or some desire to remain faithful to her, not to mention that Tyrion's refusal to consummate the marriage risks putting him on Tywin's bad side (which will threaten Tyrion's position and by extension Shae's), something Shae seems smart enough to grasp, but whatever.

I had thought before 3x08 that the hook for Shae's betrayal on the show would be jealousy and resentment over the marriage, but 3x08 seems to be saying that Shae has been mollified somewhat with respect to the marriage, so we're back to square one, I guess.

There does almost seem to be an unspoken rule in the writers' room that Tyrion can't be allowed to do anything that makes him look unheroic, ever. Whatever happens to Shae, I am assuming at this point that either 1) Tyrion will have nothing to do with it, 2) Shae will be written to look so spiteful and so villainous that Tyrion will look like a saint for putting her down. Option Number Two is looking really unlikely at this stage of the game--although the writing for Shae tends to veer all over the place, so it's hard to predict how things will shake out--so I guess we're back to Option Number One: someone else killing or otherwise disposing of Shae.

:agree:

Duh, because she is a survivor, and a survivor does whatever it takes to survive, whatever it takes. One of the first things she told Sansa was not to trust anybody life is easier that way.

If that's so, she wouldn't have gone to Tywins bed, going to Pentos as she said several times in TV would have been a lot smarter (even if that means going back to be a common whore)

ETA:

Book Shae, sure, but TV Shae, who has begged Tyrion to run away with her to Essos--pretty much the opposite of a secure, pampered existence, given that they'd be cut off from Lannister resources--not once, but twice?

One way I might see it working out is if Tyrion and Shae are happy and whatnot up until the Purple Wedding. Once Tyrion's arrested and Sansa has disappeared, Shae is either located by Tywin or Cersei and coerced into testifying, or she independently decides that Tyrion is going to die no matter what she does and there's nothing she can do to save him, so she may as well take proactive steps (approaching Cersei with the promise of damning evidence) to avoid getting taken down with him. Still not as mercenary and self-interested as Shae was in the books, but it's in keeping with her characterization as a survivor.

Yeah that may work, I guess

[Where Boars Glow]

Did you notice that Gendry made a reference to flea bottom's "bowl of brown" ? Saying they knew the meat wasn't chicken? I hope that might foreshadow Simon Silvertongue or the fact that people in flea bottom die and get put into stew.

I took this more as "Bowls of brown" are made up of whatever is around...cat, rat, dog ect ect

[go joff go]

I think they are going to set the murders (and yes tyrion will do it-they introduced the weapon for goodness sakes) up to be more tragic. That Shae is somehow caught in a web she can't get out of and damned either way. The show has already implied that Shae is working for someone in the Blackwater episode when she said that she had to meet someone. Who that person is we don't know but it almost certainly wasn't tyrion. I don't know how but they will give her a justifiable reason for testifying only Tyrion won't know. Also I love the theory I saw that Tywin and and Shae were drugged by Varys to set them "sleeping together". If that went down on the show it would be awesome

[jarl the climber]

HBO Shae is different person though. I was expecting the show to make it obvious Tywin is forcing her to talk at the trial and for Tywin to end up killing her...until Tyrion got her that gold chain.

I'm curious, did she actually except this gift? He also offered her a mansion with servants, guards, etc. and he has not delivered on any of that either at least not yet. Another problem I have with her being a gold digger is that she has stated that she would have no problem going to Essos with Tyrion even if that cost him all his wealth and power. I would have more of a problem with Tyrion killing her in the show. Also I really think she would kick his ass if he tried to kill her, I just can't see him taking her.

[Arjuous]

Lots of fine points have been made in this thread, I'd like to add just a few more.

1) Re: Tyrion the Permanent Hero - While annoying and (at least to book readers) downright blasphemous at times, I can certainly see them setting up Tyrion's anti-hero arch in Essos. He's always been flawed, but as many have pointed out many of those flaws have been whitewashed. That does not prevent his eventual descent into a drunken exile, however, and for tv purposes may serve to enhance it, as the disparity will be that much greater. I prefer the nuances of the book, but I think we still may get the darker side to the Tyrion/Shae ending, if only because it is so vital to setting up his depressed arch in Essos.

2) Re: TV Shae - In anticipation of the deluge of negative comments this might attract, let me preface this by saying this is only criticism of the story we are being entertained by, and my opinions on Shae the character shouldn't be read to reveal any moral declarations. Obviously, for anyone (whether character or actual person) to be stuck in such an economic and sociopolitical sand trap that their only viable escape is to sell themselves, is a tragic and depressing set of circumstances - one cannot help but wish these realities were different. Obviously, in a perfect world, we should not have to accommodate the moral-relativism I'm about to embark upon. But obviously, this is fiction, fantasy at that, and as such we should be allowed to dive into the world and discuss it freely.

Lengthy disclaimer aside, Seven Hells do I hate TV Shae. In the most shallow sense, Shae is poorly acted. It was pointed out on the podcast recently, but it's not her accent, it's her actual performance. However, the far more unfortunate part is that TV Shae is poorly written, and is a severely diminished character as compared to the books. While we never get a POV chapter from her, she at the very least plays the cards she is dealt rather well. She offers Tyrion an escape from all his doubts, and in return she is provided for. Tyrion is dealing with ingratitude and deception at every turn, yet she is constantly there for him. She is what he Needs. She's as close to a fantasy as he could get. Whether genuine or not, Tyrion wants to believe its real so badly that he falls in love with her, which makes her betrayal all the more painful.

More importantly, I feel, Book Shae has at least a basic understanding and respect for her position in all of this, which TV Shae completely lacks. Case in point, whereas Book Shae reacts with support when she learns of the marriage, TV Shae is outraged. Anyone alive in that world, at that time, would know for a certainty that a whore, or even a hand-maiden, could never marry a Lord, let alone a Lannister. Yet here TV Shae is, making Tyrion's life even more miserable by petitioning him for something everyone in the Seven Kingdoms knows cannot happen. What's more, should she be discovered, she would - without question - be executed by Tywin. While in the real world her position is far from enviable, given the realities of the world she lives in and her situation preceding her relationship with Tyrion, Tyrion has actually given her a pretty good life in the spectrum of things. She is taken care of economically, and because of this she no longer has to whore herself out for money, which I assume everyone admits is a better situation than she was in befor meeting Tyrion. (note: in the books, she is obviously still Tyrion's whore, and even proudly refers to herself as such, however the TV show has deliberately turned her into Tyrion's girlfriend, so the TV version cannot argue that she is still paid for sex. Their relationship has been painted as a love story, and more importantly she has abandoned the pretense of being a whore, unless she is attempting to guilt-trip Tyrion, in which case that statement is only done to prod him to say the contrary; that she's not a whore.).

In the show, she appreciates none of this. She spends nearly every scene bemoaning her situation and chastising Tyrion for realities outside of his control. She also seems to have no appreciation for peril she would be in should she be discovered, and on a few occasions she has risked discovery out of spite. As many have pointed out before, I don't know why either of them like each other in the show. In the books, she was his escape, his fantasy; she was almost Tysha reborn. In the show... Well... I just don't understand.

It seems they tried to bolt on a real love story to a situation that was a dozen times more complex, and insodoing robbed the original story of its impact.