[SPOILERS] Shae

[six]

I see nothing sinister in show!Shae. In the books yes, you could tell she was trying to gain something for herself and just flatter Tyrion to get what she wanted. But in the show she's in love, and also seems mentally challenged or incredibly naive, I can't tell. She actually expects Tyrion not to sleep with his wife, while the whole point of a marriage is to produce heirs. She's ridiculous. I mean, I'm fine with her expressing hurt, I'm put off by the fact that a prostitute actually has the sort of expectations Shae has.

ETA:

Well, in the books it's Tyrion who has some delusions about Shae's feelings and he is not stupid at all, he is exactly, delusional.

I didn't read it like that. I thought Tyrion knew it couldn't be, and was willing to fool himself anyway. Shae gets angry as she actually expects it, which is quite different.

Shouldn't we grant HBO Shae a similiar illusion? Shae for sure is a strong selfmadewoman, not stupid at all who does not realize the reality of the game because she is from another social background. She has delusions about her possibilities, being partially blind just like book Tyrion. Delusions can go very well together with being clever.

I'm not sure I agree. The sort of life she had would suggest she should be way more grounded than a character like Tyrion, who despite having had hard time did not become a prostitute and he's very rich too. Pampered, even. Different characters suit different expectations, and a prostitute truly believing and expecting what Shae does is laughable to me.

[jotabe1789]

The only unreasonable thing is for an apparently low-born whore to think that she can order around one of the richest nobles in Westeros and expect to marry him and be made noble herself. It's absolutely ridiculous in terms of the setting.

Wait. Isn't that exactlly what Tytos's mistress did?

[David Selig]

Wait. Isn't that exactlly what Tytos's mistress did?

No, she didn't expect to marry him IIRC.

[mrs_serpounce]

I see nothing sinister in show!Shae. In the books yes, you could tell she was trying to gain something for herself and just flatter Tyrion to get what she wanted. But in the show she's in love, and also seems mentally challenged or incredibly naive, I can't tell. She actually expects Tyrion not to sleep with his wife, while the whole point of a marriage is to produce heirs. She's ridiculous. I mean, I'm fine with her expressing hurt, I'm put off by the fact that a prostitute actually has the sort of expectations Shae has.

You may be right, and it may be that I'm choosing to read sinister intent/duplicity where there's just naivete. I also find her expectations absurd; still, Shae has shown outwardly only mild tolerance for political maneuverings. Note I said tolerance, rather than aptitude... her initial introduction seems to imply she's a lot more than she says she is.

[Newstar]

Maybe Shae is genuinely worried about Sansa, who after all, is a innocent child, and glad Tyrion did the right thing by not sleeping with her.

Eh, I'd buy that if in the runup to the wedding Shae had made one comment implying she was outraged on Sansa's behalf and not merely her own, but she didn't. She was jealous and threatened, but she was unconcerned with Sansa's fate of being an innocent child sold off into marriage except to the extent that she would herself be affected by it. Shae's anger was about her situation and only her situation..somewhat bizarrely, since in 3x02 she was all protective of Sansa's virtue when it came to Littlefinger and whatnot.

Her glee over the non-consummation does seem a bit delusional, since Tyrion's decision to refuse to consummate the marriage had absolutely nothing to do with Shae or some desire to remain faithful to her, not to mention that Tyrion's refusal to consummate the marriage risks putting him on Tywin's bad side (which will threaten Tyrion's position and by extension Shae's), something Shae seems smart enough to grasp, but whatever.

I had thought before 3x08 that the hook for Shae's betrayal on the show would be jealousy and resentment over the marriage, but 3x08 seems to be saying that Shae has been mollified somewhat with respect to the marriage, so we're back to square one, I guess.

I am starting to think Tyrion won't kill Shae at all. Or if he does, it would be a clear case of self-defence or to save Sansa's life, something to make him look like the hero again.

There does almost seem to be an unspoken rule in the writers' room that Tyrion can't be allowed to do anything that makes him look unheroic, ever. Whatever happens to Shae, I am assuming at this point that either 1) Tyrion will have nothing to do with it, 2) Shae will be written to look so spiteful and so villainous that Tyrion will look like a saint for putting her down. Option Number Two is looking really unlikely at this stage of the game--although the writing for Shae tends to veer all over the place, so it's hard to predict how things will shake out--so I guess we're back to Option Number One: someone else killing or otherwise disposing of Shae.

[The Mighty Conch]

I think that show Shae is a 100% different person that book Shae. Show Shae and Tyrion are clearly in love, she is acting jealous and demanding, and Tyrion is reinforcing it, having conversations with her where he apologizes about Sansa, promises Shae he "only has eyes for her" and only thinks of Sansa as pretty from a purely aesthetic standpoint, etc.

They are both acting as if they have a "real" relationship. So, I interpreted Shae as genuinely jealous of their wedding and genuinely relieved that he didn't bed Sansa.

This.

It is pretty hard to discuss Shae without mentioning Tyrion and how he acts. Maybe I should have named this thread: Shae & Tyrion's "Relationship"

You're definitely not the only one who smells something rotten in Denmark with Shae. I always thought Book!Shae's motivations were wholly straightforward. Show!Shae is a lot more wily, and I haven't trusted her from Day 1 (and didn't she tell Tyrion as much?)

I do also see some parallels with Shae and Ros and the whole concept of the ladder. Women who were whores who are using their positions to climb out of said status. That said, I definitely think Shae is letting it go to her head a bit more than some, and I think that, just like Ros, it's going to cause her downfall in the end. Play multiple players, and you'll wind up getting caught, eventually. (...and a nice little tieback to the book plot...)

That would be very...deceptive of D&D, as I feel that the normal viewer has no idea that Shae is anything but in love with Tyrion. But I wouldn't know as well as somebody who doesn't know the outcome. Anybody watching with an unsullied that thinks anything to the opposite.

And to the "hero" discussion of Tyrion- I think he is easily the most likable Lannister in the show which means in every Kings Landing scene you are rooting for him. He hasn't murdered any babies, tossed a kid from a tower, ordered the destruction of a House, or even been unfaithful to Shae. He isn't Ned 2.0, but Ned has been dead for awhile...

[Where Boars Glow]

It is really hard to imagine Tywin and Shae in bed together. I can imagine this Shae betraying Tyrion at the trial and making a mockery of him, but sleeping with Tywin? And Tywin sleeping with her?

Maybe it won't be Tywin on the show.....maybe it will be Bronn.

I think the way the show has set up the relationship with those 2 (Buddy film) it would be even more brutal then Tywin.

He finishes his dad.....is running back through the walls......goes to find Bronn to accompany him on his epic escape....and finds only Shea in his bed.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Eh, I'd buy that if in the runup to the wedding Shae had made one comment implying she was outraged on Sansa's behalf and not merely her own, but she didn't. She was jealous and threatened, but she was unconcerned with Sansa's fate of being an innocent child sold off into marriage except to the extent that she would herself be affected by it. Shae's anger was about her situation and only her situation..somewhat bizarrely, since in 3x02 she was all protective of Sansa's virtue when it came to Littlefinger and whatnot.

Her glee over the non-consummation does seem a bit delusional, since Tyrion's decision to refuse to consummate the marriage had absolutely nothing to do with Shae or some desire to remain faithful to her, not to mention that Tyrion's refusal to consummate the marriage risks putting him on Tywin's bad side (which will threaten Tyrion's position and by extension Shae's), something Shae seems smart enough to grasp, but whatever.

I had thought before 3x08 that the hook for Shae's betrayal on the show would be jealousy and resentment over the marriage, but 3x08 seems to be saying that Shae has been mollified somewhat with respect to the marriage, so we're back to square one, I guess.

There does almost seem to be an unspoken rule in the writers' room that Tyrion can't be allowed to do anything that makes him look unheroic, ever. Whatever happens to Shae, I am assuming at this point that either 1) Tyrion will have nothing to do with it, 2) Shae will be written to look so spiteful and so villainous that Tyrion will look like a saint for putting her down. Option Number Two is looking really unlikely at this stage of the game--although the writing for Shae tends to veer all over the place, so it's hard to predict how things will shake out--so I guess we're back to Option Number One: someone else killing or otherwise disposing of Shae.

Yep, I was refering to that episode. It took no time for her to say something like "she's just a child who doesn't care, while I am a woman who really loves you" or something like that.

Now, personally, I'm ok with tyrion being portrayed as almost a saint IF that means that they won't change him killing them both Shae and Tywin. I'm sure many would be more than shocked, "but, he was the ONLY DECENT guy in the show!". I really hope that's what DD are trying to achieve.

[Newstar]

Now, personally, I'm ok with tyrion being portrayed as almost a saint IF that means that they won't change him killing them both Shae and Tywin. I'm sure many would be more than shocked, "but, he was the ONLY DECENT guy in the show!". I really hope that's what DD are trying to achieve.

Good point. The introduction of the golden chain in 3x07 seemed like a wink and a nod to book readers that the show was going to eventually have Tyrion murdering Shae just as he did in the books, but again, there seems to be an unspoken rule about Tyrion not doing anything unheroic, and TV Shae's characterization hasn't hinted at her being anything other than a smart but politically unsophisticated woman in love, and 3x08 seemed to rule out jealousy/resentment as a reason for Shae to betray Tyrion going forward, so I don't know where that leaves us, exactly.

At this point, it seems that if the writers are going to make the TV outcome of Tyrion and Shae's relationship match the books' outcome, they have to write face heel turns for Shae and Tyrion, so that betraying Tyrion and giving false testimony against him at the trial/murdering Shae in a fit of rage don't seem wildly out of character. At the same time, it seems to me that while the writers change the "how" of any given character's arc, the "what" or the outcome is likely going to be the same. Tyrion and Shae's genuinely loving relationship in the show and Shae's kinder, more loving character in the show are likely nothing more than detours to the same end result: Shae betraying Tyrion and being murdered by Tyrion. I guess the problem is that I don't see how they get to that outcome from where they're at now, especially with the writers' refusal to depict Tyrion doing anything unheroic and with Book Shae's kinder character.

[The Mighty Conch]

the only decent man died in the first season.

[six]

Maybe it won't be Tywin on the show.....maybe it will be Bronn.

I think the way the show has set up the relationship with those 2 (Buddy film) it would be even more brutal then Tywin.

He finishes his dad.....is running back through the walls......goes to find Bronn to accompany him on his epic escape....and finds only Shea in his bed.

Nah, Bronn and Tyrion are going to split up over money and status, like in the books. The fact that Bronn would do anything for money has been highlighted plenty of times.

As for Tyrion killing Shae... I don't know. It's easier to send a good character on the dark side than the other way round, I'm not sure they'll miss the opportunity.

[1234567]

We'll have to disagree on our concept of "majorly horrible," then. He's done some bad things, yup, in the context of familal war... But we're not even at Singer's Stew yet (which is where I really see it starting).

1. Breaking Marillion's Fingers

2. Arming the Vale Clans (despite knowing that however innocent he was, his Brother had tried to kill Bran).

3. Thinking Mash Heddle's murder was quite funny.

4. Poisoning Cersei

5. Kidnapping and threatening to Rape Tommen

6. Issuing threats about how Sansa would be treated in front of the entire Court when she was being beaten daily as it was (that scene on the show would have gone a long way to explaining why Sansa wouldn't trust him).

7. Giving the Antler Men to Joff to play with.

8. Letting his Wildlings run riot in KL.

9. Slapping Shae

10. His women issues

11. Dismissing the NW and Alister Thorne.

Etc etc.

[Winter's Prince]

Duh, because she is a survivor, and a survivor does whatever it takes to survive, whatever it takes. One of the first things she told Sansa was not to trust anybody life is easier that way.

[Where Boars Glow]

Nah, Bronn and Tyrion are going to split up over money and status, like in the books. The fact that Bronn would do anything for money has been highlighted plenty of times.

As for Tyrion killing Shae... I don't know. It's easier to send a good character on the dark side than the other way round, I'm not sure they'll miss the opportunity.

it couldnt be both? Remember she may be offered a marridge to a landed knight? Which Bron could become.

[Newstar]

Duh, because she is a survivor, and a survivor does whatever it takes to survive, whatever it takes. One of the first things she told Sansa was not to trust anybody life is easier that way.

That's true. Sansa reminded us in 3x06 that she trusts Shae even though Shae tells her not to. This was interestingly mentioned in a scene otherwise devoted to spelling out how sweetly naive Sansa can be (asking Shae if her family will be able to come to her wedding to Loras). It also seemed like a wink and a nod to the viewer that Shae is going to turn on Sansa at some point.

[melissaphish]

She will publicly betray and belittle him at his trial, making Tyrion realize that she never ever loved him and was just using him for the security he could provide. Now she has found that security somewhere else.

[Newstar]

She will publicly betray and belittle him at his trial, making Tyrion realize that she never ever loved him and was just using him for the security he could provide. Now she has found that security somewhere else.

Book Shae, sure, but TV Shae, who has begged Tyrion to run away with her to Essos--pretty much the opposite of a secure, pampered existence, given that they'd be cut off from Lannister resources--not once, but twice?

One way I might see it working out is if Tyrion and Shae are happy and whatnot up until the Purple Wedding. Once Tyrion's arrested and Sansa has disappeared, Shae is either located by Tywin or Cersei and coerced into testifying, or she independently decides that Tyrion is going to die no matter what she does and there's nothing she can do to save him, so she may as well take proactive steps (approaching Cersei with the promise of damning evidence) to avoid getting taken down with him. Still not as mercenary and self-interested as Shae was in the books, but it's in keeping with her characterization as a survivor.

[WhatIsDeadMayNeverLive]

Shae doesn't want Tyrion to consumate his marriage because she wants him to keep paying her. Simple as that.

[Damar]

'The next whore I find in your bed, I'll hang'.

If Tywin finds out that Tyrion is being faithful to his whore rather than putting a babe in Sansa, there's no doubt he would do it, especially if done after Joffrey dies.

[six]

I'm surprised at the amount of people who actually believe Shae isn't genuinely in love with Tyrion. It's blatantly and ridiculously sappy, because it's meant to be lurve. I know most relationships on screen can be open to interpretation in their dynamics, but this one is quite simple.