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[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa III`


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OK, this is continuation of the Discussing Sansa II

Here`s OP review of the Sansa scenes from previous thread, and the three last posts

OP`s review of Sansa`s wedding and bedding.

Discussing Sansa this season was particularly hard, since we had no idea where the producers are heading with her character. It was a bit ambiguous what they wanted to achieve with her scenes, her characterization in this season. And now, after Sansa`s big scene came out, all doubts are gone. They were heading nowhere.

Executive producers of the show, D&D always made us remember that they are as big fans of the books as the most of us, but that show is separate entity. Well, I am now fully convinced. This episode showed us that even for D&D canon material means so little. The scenes I am talking about are in total collision with Martin`s envision of the wedding. But, where did it all began?

This entire season portrayed Sansa as the pawn in the game of real players – Littlefinger, QoT, Varys, and Tywin. She was just a beautiful girl with old name. And basically, they got that part well. The machinations, politics were the highlight of the season. But, where D&D epically failed is showing that one of two `windows` we see plots of King`s Landing is actually Sansa. How could they ever forget that is completely beyond my comprehension? The thing here isn`t Sansa`s position in the Game, we are all aware she is just a pawn. The problem is that her character lacked this season any serious depth or even layers that would make her at least more interesting. D&D`s imagination of Sansa is basically the same all male characters in the show have about her, and they have stipulated her to a `great beauty with old name`. You would think with dozen of POVs and several dozens of pages, GRRM wrote about her would make them think more deeply about her. And yet, they didn`t. Sansa was a sidekick this season and the worst part is, that her moment, the moment we knew is all about her was transformed into something else.

Sansa`s storyarc in this episode began when Tyrion visited her before the wedding. The awkward conversation was a nice touch, but it failed to show the real positions of the two characters. Tyrion led the conversation and basically made it all about him. It needed only one line: `I doubt that very much` to respond on Tyrion`s so-called empathy and to give us the right picture of that wedding. But then, again, they shifted the perspective from her to him. His line about not hurting her is interesting because he is supposed to be Prince Charming after Joffrey and Loras, and Sansa should be thankful for having him. We have been seeing this for quite some time. And although we all know how many wrong things are in this scene, we can`t deny that it fits perfectly with everything we have seen thus far.

The wedding ceremony began with interaction between Joffrey and Sansa. Those of us who read the books remember Sansa`s fierce respond to Joffrey`s statement that he is supposed to be her father in this matter. Again, Gods and D&D know why that respond was cut off. Funny or sad, you choose it, it seems that only score is depicting Sansa`s misery about this wedding. Ramin Djawadi did a great job here and filled the holes the writers – D&D left. Quietly, with dignity, accompanied with great music, Sansa walked down the aisle. And then, as we couldn`t predicted, Joffrey`s malice shifted again the spotlight from Sansa to Tyrion. It`s like we needed reminder that marrying a dwarf from family who destroyed your life is nothing comparing to marrying `great beauty with old name` and possibility to control half the realm. Here you have to congratulate the writers. They have done impossible. I honestly couldn`t believe it`s possible to feel sorry for Tyrion over Sansa in this marriage, but somehow that`s the impression I have during this wedding.

But where I totally wanted to shut down my screen is the kneeling part. Not kneeling in front of Tyrion, while knowing how hurtful it is for him was always one of the breakthrough moments for Sansa. Not seeing it, well we have all seen it coming, let`s face it. We knew there is no chance writers will give Sansa to show how harsh she can be, to truly position them on their right places. No, another chance and another scene were ruined, and it all leads to question: How many more will we have to see before Sansa`s character is truly lost.

And now quick derail for the ladies from PTP thread. Have you seen that dress? Every nerve of my body was on fire due to the wrong colors of the dress, lack of Stark maiden cloak, and general lack of symbolism in this wedding. It was weird ceremony, but one can argue it was meant to be.

Where the writers hit the cord was the feast and, not Sansa`s part of course, but the Tywin/Tyrion/Joffrey`s interaction. I liked it as much as I liked it in the books, and all three actors excelled here. The scene was both dramatic and interesting to see how the three great actors confront with their strong characters.

And now we come to weird part – the wedding night. Here again, the task was shared between writers and music department. While writers were focusing on Tyrion`s monologue, the music showed how hurtful this is for Sansa. The realization of her age finally puts the both of them under the light, and it`s incredibly wonderful to see how finally Tyrion gets some moral ambiguity this season. But, at the end he did the right thing. But, here Sansa just like in the books pushed the things further away. And then, one of the best part of tonight`s season. And now my watch begins. Sansa`s behavior in the books got the line here. Of course, it would all make much more sense, if Sansa was colder to Tyrion and showed him that she is a Stark of Winterfell, where winters are long and harsh. That way, the NW and the Wall reference would have its full meaning. The story ended with clean sheet and Shae realizing that things are not simple for either of them.

Whether you like it or not, the conversation we had the last time finally showed one thing. Producers love Tyrion, they are ready to make him far better and heroic, and they don`t mind whose character are they going to destroy. This entire episode was about Tyrion and his troubles of marrying Sansa and him doing the right thing. And although they are entitled to do that, I wish they didn`t behave like the high school fan boys who cheer for the best guy. Luckily for all of us, Djawadi`s music was beautifully composed and really cast a light on Sansa`s torments much more than actual text did.

To expect from the show what we had in books is unrealistic, and I am aware of that. But, we can here see how deep and meaningful GRRM`s writing is. We can see now that although he is man, he is sophisticated soul that can understand each and every of his character. And that`s something producers and writers of this episode miss. And that`s why the show will never reach the depth books have.


As I wrote in the Sansa and Tyrion thread, Sansa noticed that Joffrey took the footstool away, yet didn't kneel of her own volition. When Tyrion actually politiely asked her, she did. Not so terribly different from the books IMO.

Sansa did show grace and strength in the way she held herself throughout the wedding, unlike Cersei who acted much like at the Blackwater again.


It's not the same as showing defiance in a public place in front of everyone she hates and who are holding her prisoner.

It's also not the same to have the wedding sprung on her the day of, instead of having all these people assure her just how GOOD Tyrion is. It's not the same that Sansa has so much interaction with Marg, who turns away from her in the books when she's married Tyrion, instead of encouraging her before... Sansa in the show is treated like a shallow and weak young girl, not the desperate young girl who is slowly becoming stronger every day while surviving in a completely hostile environment.

Her potrayal in the show is first and foremost as someone weak, and that's unfortunate.


The wedding scene is horrible!!! very horrible!! They didn't made Sansa kneel(which showcase her strength and I'm not even a fan) but they couldn't show this because they already show Sansa being a bitch about how she doesn't like Tyrion for being a dwarf.. And the whitewashing of Tyrion is getting into my nerves, he's looking more like a victim and they even had to make Joffrey take the bench so he could be more pitiable.. :angry: I still love the dark grey Tyrion in the books.. It's kinda disappointing because Peter Dinklage is such a good actor that I'm curious about how he would play Tyrion's dark side... this is such a horrible show change...

snapback.pnggammaerys, on Yesterday, 08:37 PM, said:

People hate us red hairs. It's because we have no soul?

I thought most people in general love redheads.. I am very fascinated in red hair. It's the most beautiful hair color for me.. mostly because such beauty is quite exotic to me too, somewhat radiant, elegant, and seductive..

I have a thing for redheads.. Daniel(MrRepzion), Bryce Dallas Howard, Lena Katina, Rose Leslie, and... Faye Reagan

As in previous two threads, I would ask of you to keep discussion civilized and polite.

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