Targ_Warg Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 I'm mostly a lurker here, but I just wanted to thank Apple Martini and her highly literate posse for coming up with this! I was highly suspicious of the use of Arbor Gold in Vary's story about the baby switching (who sells a SON for a bottle of wine, and he just happened to have Targ features?), but alas, I din't have the time to do extensive research to formulate a theory. Job well done! I buy it 100%. :bowdown: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coil Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 ...has someone already mention Eddard and Varys drinking wine in Ned's last chapter?The quality isn't explicitly stated, but from the italian version of the books I read that it's red, plus Varys says something like "It's not the the fine harvest you offered me on the tourney's evening, but also not more poisonous than many others"My version states that during that evening Ned had offered Varys some "summer wine", no hint about its colour.Edit: Thanking Apple Martini and whoever put his insights is a must. Awesome pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jarl the climber Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 I'd be more inclined to give this some weight if the phrase was used more often, better distributed throughout the books, and used by people other than Littlefinger. At best, it seems to be a Littlefinger catchphrase that only seemed to occur to Martin during the writing of Feast. There's nothing establishing it as significant or used outside of this single chapter in the book.This kind of reminds me of oranges in the Godfather being a symbol for death. The Director said he did not do it intentionaly but that does not mean its not there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiasyd Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 Too much coincidence to be random, I'm sold - great catch!I wonder if an inverse case could be made as well? Some other drink (dornish red?) for truthful/faithful allegiances? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragnorak Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 Too much coincidence to be random, I'm sold - great catch!I wonder if an inverse case could be made as well? Some other drink (dornish red?) for truthful/faithful allegiances?Summerwine seems to coincide with naiveté, childhood, innocence. Not sure what to make of the Dornish wines-- justice or vengeance perhaps? That would fit with Tyrion's meal with Slynt and Oberyn's use of Dornish wine while talking to Tyrion. Haven't done an exhaustive search though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Leftwich Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 Too much coincidence to be random, I'm sold - great catch!I wonder if an inverse case could be made as well? Some other drink (dornish red?) for truthful/faithful allegiances?I was just thinking the same thing. Maybe to go along with [Arbor Gold = lies] there is a pattern of [dry Dornish red] = harsh truths? Also, is there any pattern of arbor wines being sweeter? Viticulture-wise, the climates/conditions of Dorne vs. Arbor would make for dry and sweet, respectively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Light a wight tonight Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 Also, is there any pattern of arbor wines being sweeter? Viticulture-wise, the climates/conditions of Dorne vs. Arbor would make for dry and sweet, respectively.Normally a hot climate produces grapes with a high sugar content, which translates to either some residual sweetness in the wine or a high alcohol percentage if not both. That would seem to describe Dorne's conditions more than the sea-breeze cooled Arbor.I'm not sure where some posters come up with equating a lack of tannins with high quality. Tannins provide backbone, though in excess they can be unpleasant. Generally wine meant to be drunk young will be less tannic and that meant to be aged will have more tannins.Actually we don't get much of a description of any wine. Sandor's favored "sour red" is the closest. Maybe that has some significance (sour red=no BS). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harlaw's Book Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 Not sure what to make of the Dornish wines-- justice or vengeance perhaps? That would fit with Tyrion's meal with Slynt and Oberyn's use of Dornish wine while talking to Tyrion. Haven't done an exhaustive search though.I've been pondering what to make of the Arbor-Dornish contrast as well because, as mentioned, Manderly tells to wash his pies with Arbor gold. But in Old Nan's story of The Rat Cook, the pies were served with Dornish wine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady m Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 Summerwine seems to coincide with naiveté, childhood, innocence. Not sure what to make of the Dornish wines-- justice or vengeance perhaps? That would fit with Tyrion's meal with Slynt and Oberyn's use of Dornish wine while talking to Tyrion. Haven't done an exhaustive search though.Having begun a search about Dornish wines while DP was doing Arbor ones, I'd say at first glance, yes, you can. I'm working on a post about them currently, but I'm sure you'd realize there are far more references to thing and people who are Dornish outside of wine than mentions of the Arbor. It's actually culling through 'harbor' references that takes time in that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Leftwich Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 Examples of Dornish red from AFfC:“They ate a simple supper of beets and bread and bloody beef with a flagon of Dornish red to wash it all down. Ser Kevan said little and scarce touched his wine cup. He broods too much, she decided. He needs to be put to work to get beyond his grief.” AFfC p. 112(Kevan is trying to tell Cersei truths of her situation, but she will not listen.)“Evenfall found him sitting alone in the common room of White Sword Tower, with a cup of Dornish red and the White Book. He was turning pages with the stump of his sword hand when the Knight of Flowers entered, removed his cloak and swordbelt and hung them on a wall peg next to Jaime’s.” AFfC p. 235(Jaime reads, thinks about, and discusses harsh truths with Loras.)““We do, Your Grace.” Orton Merryweather was not a comely man, with his big lumpish nose and shock of unruly reddish-orange hair, but he was never less than courteous. “We have Dornish red and Arbor gold, and a fine sweet hippocras from Highgarden.” “The gold, I think. I find Dornish wines as sour as the Dornish.” As Merryweather filled her cup, Cersei said, “I suppose we had as well begin with them.”” AFfc p. 241(Cersei chooses ‘lies’ over the ‘truth,’ and even explains why!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Leftwich Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 Hippocras, anyone? :cheers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lykos Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 Light a wight tonight, you´re right tannins provide backbone and personaly I prefer astringent red wines, but that´s a very modern concept in medieval times sweet and pleasant wines would be considered top class. White wines generaly have less tannins due to the clearing processes (especially if red grapes are used). I like your sour red = no BS.I also agree with Ragnorak on Summerwine = immaturity and Dornish red = retaliation.Ser Leftwich, I´ve asked about Hippocras too. I think it is certainly connected to heavy self deception as it´s sweetened and spiced red wine. That raises aquestions about mulled wine.In RL red wine is usually called blood in many cultures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Martin Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 Oh this is a fun thread... sort of like a perversion of "in vino veritas" or "in wine, truth!" Or perhaps "fools gold."Thank you to those who took the time to look at the text references. This will be an issue to look for on the next re-read.Do you all tend to think the use of Arbor Gold is more of a heuristic than a rule? I.e. not every mention means a deception is going on for certain, but rather, its a very subtle hint to the well attuned reader to be looking for a potential deception? Then again, i suppose one could argue that there is ALWAYS a deception going on to some extent. But even then, deception and wine are common in the Game of Thrones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonin Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 This is a very interesting observation.... I see some truth in this observation. one that I will use in rereads, and the future books to see if a connection exists to what wine is being used.Kudos to the originators... an interesting topic for discussion and future reading guidelines.However, small science rant:The OP has in effect stated a hypothesis: "Arbor Gold = Sign of Duplicity/Lies " in support of this hypothesis the 18 out of 20 example is used...We all realize that to disprove a hypothesis you need only one example. But this is not science, just a discussion about Arbor Gold.end small rant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady m Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 These are the Dornish wine references from ADWD, others to come. There are five that I can find, these don't include references to wine in the Dorne chapters. They work better, I think, if you do believe Aegon is fake and that Varys and Illyrio's schemes have to do with righting wrongs as they perceive them. ..Tyrion marked time by the comings and goings of the cabin boy who brought meals he did not eat. The boy always brought a brush and a bucket too, to clean up. "Is this Dornish wine?" Tyrion asked him once, as he pulled the stopper from the skin. "It reminds me of a certain snake I knew..."Jellied eels and Dornish reds filled their afternoons. Come evening there were sliced hams, boiled eggs and roasted larks stuffed with garlic and onions. (This is on the road to meet the Shy Maid)"...the good folk of Meereen will welcome what I sell""Wine? Dornish wine?" The captain was bit convinced."If you say so. I deal in wine, not wars. Ghiscari wine is poor stuff, all agree. The Meereeneese will pay a good price for my fine Dornish vintages."The wine was Dornish strongwine, dark as blood and sweet as vengeance. (At the feast where Gregor's head is presented.)I'll have the rest of the references later this evening, unless someone else decides to do them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted May 21, 2013 Author Share Posted May 21, 2013 I'm mostly a lurker here, but I just wanted to thank Apple Martini and her highly literate posse for coming up with this! I was highly suspicious of the use of Arbor Gold in Vary's story about the baby switching (who sells a SON for a bottle of wine, and he just happened to have Targ features?), but alas, I din't have the time to do extensive research to formulate a theory. Job well done! I buy it 100%. :bowdown:Thanks, means a lot! No one owns the Harpy posse though. We're equal-opportunity renegades. B) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted May 21, 2013 Author Share Posted May 21, 2013 <snip> I'm gonna say it: The Meereenese welcoming Dornish wine is interesting to ponder, given what's going on there and the insurgency against Dany. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pie Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 Lovely stuff guys. I always wonder does George put as much effort in as we give him credit for or is some merely coincidence? If he does, which I think he does, no wonder it takes so long!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
History of Westeros Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 Well, looks like we have Arbor wine mentioned in the first book. It's unknown if this wine was white or red.First mention is with Ned and Robert, while Ned was recovering from Jaime's attack.“No matter,” the king said gruffly. “Some wine? From the Arbor. A good vintage.”Ned accepts, then tells Robert that Catelyn took Tyrion on his command. We know this is a lie.ninja'dNot only this, Ned says the lie *immediately after taking a swallow*.Robert frowned. “I take it you know what Catelyn has done?”“I do.” Ned took a small swallow of wine. “My lady wife is blameless, Your Grace. All she did she did at my command.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
History of Westeros Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 Looking for the word "arbor" in the e-books sure does get you a lot of "harbor". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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