Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

brashcandy

From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XX

Recommended Posts

If romantic song and poetry are to be credited, it can be dangerous for a Knight to ride into a forest alone. He might meet La Belle Dame Sans Merci, or die Hexe Lorelei:

Es ist schon spät, es ist schon kalt,

Was reitst du einsam durch den Wald?

Der Wald ist lang, du bist allein,

Du schöne Braut! Ich führ dich heim!"

"Groß ist der Männer Trug und List,

Vor Schmerz mein Herz gebrochen ist,

Wohl irrt das Waldhorn her und hin,

O flieh! Du weißt nicht, wer ich bin."

So reich geschmückt ist Roß und Weib,

So wunderschön der junge Leib,

Jetzt kenn ich dich - Gott steh mir bei!

Du bist die Hexe Lorelei.

"Du kennst mich wohl - von hohem Stein

Schaut still mein Schloß tief in den Rhein.

Es ist schon spät, es ist schon kalt,

Kommst nimmermehr aus diesem Wald."

Josef Karl Benedikt von Eichendorff (1788-1857) , "Waldgespräch", from Romanzen.

It is late, it is cold,

Why ride you lonely through the wood?

The woods are long, you are alone,

Lovely bride! I will lead you home!—

Great are mens deceit and guile,

Sorrow has broken my heart;

The horn sounds here, sounds there,

Oh flee! You know not who I am.—

So richly decked are steed and lady,

So young and fair of figure is she.

Now—God preserve—I know you!

You are the Sorceress Lorelei!

You know me indeed—from lofty rock 

My castle gazes silent into the Rhine.

It is late, it is cold,

Nevermore shall you leave this wood.

This poem is the text for a well-known song by Robert Schumann, part of his Liederkreis (song cycle) on poems of Eichendorff; I could only find the one performance by Ian Bostridge for La Belle Dame Sans Merci, but there are a lot of entries on You Tube for this. Might as well start with the usual suspects.

Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7MwZ3PMnajA

Elly Ameling:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zjHKYTv0jWM

Gerald Finley:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=68zKloS4zXI

Now for some younger singers:

Jessica Nicolet:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tEnxpidKbBc

A little bit of acting besides voice acting, but subtle enough not to be obtrusive. A nice sly smile for Lorelei.

Megan Gillespie, soprano:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=q1PlI0YZvtU

Now this soprano is anything but subtle, especially when it comes to Lorelei. It seems to me she would prefer there were no difference between stage and recital. Still she sings this with energy and I think it interesting to see the contrast in performance style.

Eva Budde :

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ei_opFP7Tl4

So back to something more subtle. We last encountered Ms. Budde via a fine performance of Der Zwerg, she is just as good here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it's interesting that Stannis takes to calling Sansa 'Lady Lannister'.

GRRM is really strong with names, and he's shown a number of characters growing into names that start out as a joke or a slur. Lord Snow is the most obvious example--mocking at first, currently his actual name. And Aurochs, another Night's Watchman, gets the same treatment.

I've worried what it means that Lady is dead, and I've always thought the most obvious implication is that she would be subsumed into another family, and that she would shift her identity and allegiance away from the Starks.

So I'm worried that Sansa will grow into a true 'Lady Lannister', before/during/after/because of Tyrion's return.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it's interesting that Stannis takes to calling Sansa 'Lady Lannister'.

GRRM is really strong with names, and he's shown a number of characters growing into names that start out as a joke or a slur. Lord Snow is the most obvious example--mocking at first, currently his actual name. And Aurochs, another Night's Watchman, gets the same treatment.

I've worried what it means that Lady is dead, and I've always thought the most obvious implication is that she would be subsumed into another family, and that she would shift her identity and allegiance away from the Starks.

So I'm worried that Sansa will grow into a true 'Lady Lannister', before/during/after/because of Tyrion's return.

The problem with this is tihat she already had that shift of allegience. But, at the end, she remains Stark, very certain about her identity and loyalty. I think that she has been on track of returning to inner Stark for the past several books. From her lines to Joffrey, to the wedding to Tyrion, snow castle scene. She is Stark, and her identity as Stark is so powerful that after all those tortures and `making Lannister of her` didn`t change who she really is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The problem with this is tihat she already had that shift of allegience. But, at the end, she remains Stark, very certain about her identity and loyalty. I think that she has been on track of returning to inner Stark for the past several books. From her lines to Joffrey, to the wedding to Tyrion, snow castle scene. She is Stark, and her identity as Stark is so powerful that after all those tortures and `making Lannister of her` didn`t change who she really is.

I don't see a shift in allegiance I think in the beginning, Sansa schemes for personal advancement and doesn't think of herself--or others--in a particularly clannish way. She only starts to really understand that there's an 'us' versus 'them' dynamic going on when her father dies.

At that point, she's isolated & terrified. She schemes to go home, but not because she thinks of herself as a player, or someone who can really champion a cause or a faction. Just because she wants to be safe.

The snow-castle scene grounds her in her Winterfell identity, but I'm not sure that's where she'll end up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't see a shift in allegiance I think in the beginning, Sansa schemes for personal advancement and doesn't think of herself--or others--in a particularly clannish way. She only starts to really understand that there's an 'us' versus 'them' dynamic going on when her father dies.

At that point, she's isolated & terrified. She schemes to go home, but not because she thinks of herself as a player, or someone who can really champion a cause or a faction. Just because she wants to be safe.

The snow-castle scene grounds her in her Winterfell identity, but I'm not sure that's where she'll end up.

But you argue that Stannis`s `Lady Lannister` is some sort of foreshadowing. We are not talking here about perception of Sansa as a player, we talk about her identity as Stark. She already had that moment in which the world collapsed around her because of her doings. Now she is on her way back home. Her story doesn`t have to end at Winterfell, but before the end, she`ll be there. Like Jon said, different roads sometimes leads to same place. And that`s in the core of Stark kids` journeys.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey! I'm kinda new here, been lurking these forums for a while but I've been too shy to come out and post. I absolutely love Sansa and I just now found this thread, hopefully I can contribute something to the discussion :s

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Now she is on her way back home. Her story doesn`t have to end at Winterfell, but before the end, she`ll be there. Like Jon said, different roads sometimes leads to same place. And that`s in the core of Stark kids` journeys.

It looks like Sansa will go to Winterfell, yes. But we don't know if there's a unified core to the Stark kids' journeys. I used to think that the Stark children would scatter, only to unite again stronger than before. I don't anymore. Now I'm really afraid that the big 'Stark' arc is just the fall of the house--and that the only children who survive will be the ones who abandon the family name.

Anyhow, I'm not in favor of Sansa as a Lannister supporter. More afraid that Stannis' name for her will foreshadow her further evolution.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey! I'm kinda new here, been lurking these forums for a while but I've been too shy to come out and post. I absolutely love Sansa and I just now found this thread, hopefully I can contribute something to the discussion :s

Welcome to the forum, and to the thread. We are always glad by the income of new fans. And be free to post your opinion...

It looks like Sansa will go to Winterfell, yes. But we don't know if there's a unified core to the Stark kids' journeys. I used to think that the Stark children would scatter, only to unite again stronger than before. I don't anymore. Now I'm really afraid that the big 'Stark' arc is just the fall of the house--and that the only children who survive will be the ones who abandon the family name.

Anyhow, I'm not in favor of Sansa as a Lannister supporter. More afraid that Stannis' name for her will foreshadow her further evolution.

Well, I disagree. I believe that at least 4 of them - Jon, Arya, Sansa and Rickon will unite in Winterfell, and that Bran will guide them to it. I think that hiding Needle, building snow castle, survival at cannibalistic island is clear foreshadow where GRRM is leading Starks. When I did my Animal project, I compared Starks to Druid wolf pack from Yellowstone, and I think their story mirrors Starks perfectly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it's interesting that Stannis takes to calling Sansa 'Lady Lannister'.

GRRM is really strong with names, and he's shown a number of characters growing into names that start out as a joke or a slur. Lord Snow is the most obvious example--mocking at first, currently his actual name. And Aurochs, another Night's Watchman, gets the same treatment.

I've worried what it means that Lady is dead, and I've always thought the most obvious implication is that she would be subsumed into another family, and that she would shift her identity and allegiance away from the Starks.

So I'm worried that Sansa will grow into a true 'Lady Lannister', before/during/after/because of Tyrion's return.

I think Stannis's insistence on calling Sansa "Lady Lannister" is more a reflection of Stannis's rigidity than any foreshadowing of Sansa "becoming" a Lannister should Tyrion return to Westeros. Stannis is probably the most "by-the-book" character, at least in terms of following established laws, protocols, norms, etc. One only needs to look at how other characters think of him: "iron" (Donal Noye); "famously without mercy" (Catelyn); "just but harsh" (Ned); "a truly just (and terrifying) man" (Varys). Though Stannis might very well be aware that Sansa had little say in the matter, since the marriage contract adhered to the established rules, then Sansa can never be anything but a Lannister in his eyes. (Stannis calling Sansa a Lannister -- just like his always referring to Robb as a rebel and usurper -- also creates a source of lingering friction between himself and Jon Snow).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think Stannis's insistence on calling Sansa "Lady Lannister" is more a reflection of Stannis's rigidity than any foreshadowing of Sansa "becoming" a Lannister should Tyrion return to Westeros.

Yes, clearly Stannis is calling her Lady Lannister as a pejorative. He's being himself and calling someone he doesn't know a nasty name out of ignorance.

That's why I brought up the 'Lord Snow' thing--another pejorative that gained resonance when Jon became Lord Commander. Arya's constant name-changing evolved into joining an order of assassins that's teaching her, bit by bit, to truly erase her own identity and don a thousand faces.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think Stannis's insistence on calling Sansa "Lady Lannister" is more a reflection of Stannis's rigidity than any foreshadowing of Sansa "becoming" a Lannister should Tyrion return to Westeros. Stannis is probably the most "by-the-book" character, at least in terms of following established laws, protocols, norms, etc. One only needs to look at how other characters think of him: "iron" (Donal Noye); "famously without mercy" (Catelyn); "just but harsh" (Ned); "a truly just (and terrifying) man" (Varys). Though Stannis might very well be aware that Sansa had little say in the matter, since the marriage contract adhered to the established rules, then Sansa can never be anything but a Lannister in his eyes. (Stannis calling Sansa a Lannister -- just like his always referring to Robb as a rebel and usurper -- also creates a source of lingering friction between himself and Jon Snow).

I agree that Stannis is more set againt having Tyrion on Ned's old seat of power then against Sansa simply for being married to him, however, Stannis is king. He goes by the book but is fully aware of his powers as such. Jon Snow is a bastard, yet Stannis only needs to say a word to undo it if it suits him. If Sansa comes to Stannis and tells him she had little say in it and wishes it was annuled, it is in his best interest to undo that as well. IIRC, only the high septon can annul a marriage, but Stannis cares little of the faith of the Seven, and Sansa was married in a cermony of a religion that is not hers. I don't think Stannis would have a problem with annuling the wedding with a word.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This came up earlier in the thread, but I would like to touch upon the idea of Sansa as a "Queen of Winter."

An interesting semantic note that has been noted by posters in other threads involves the royal titles assigned to the Starks: Kings in the North and Kings of Winter. Using in instead of of when referring to the North notes that the Stark's royal authority doesn't extend below the Neck -- a natural thing, since the southern lands were divided into six other jurisdictions -- but it also hints at there being negative consequences for those Starks who do venture south. This idea is brilliantly captured in two key events in Westerosi history: Torrhen Stark bending his knee to Aegon the Conqueror in the Riverlands, and Robb Stark's assassination at the Twins (also in the Riverlands).

To be king of something, however, indicates a mastery of said object or concept, one that is not limited by geography. We are of course all aware of the Stark words, and their unique standing in the Seven Kingdoms as the only ones that don't boast "of honor and glory," promise "loyalty and truth," or swear "faith and courage" (AGoT, Catelyn I). But we are also given several reminders throughout the text of the perils of winter and how the Starks -- and the Northerners in general -- are the only ones who truly understand its consequences.

From AGoT, Arya II:

"Let me tell you something about wolves, child. When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives. Summer is the time for squabbles. In winter we must protect one another, keep each other warm, share our strengths. So if you must hate, Arya, hate those who would truly do us harm. Septa Mordane is a good woman, and Sansa...Sansa is your sister. You may be as different as the sun and the moon, but the same blood flows through both of your hearts. You need her, as she needs you...and I need both of you, gods help me."

From ACoK, Catelyn II:

"War will make them old," Catelyn said, "as it did us." She had been a girl when Robert and Ned and Jon Arryn raised their banners against Aerys Targaryen, a woman by the time the fighting was done. "I pity them."

"Why?" Lord Rowan asked her. "Look at them. They're young and strong, full of life and laughter. And lust, aye, more lust than they know what to do with. There will be many a bastard bred this night, I promise you. Why pity?"

"Because it will not last," Catelyn answered, sadly. "Because they are the knights of summer, and winter is coming."

From ASoS, Tyrion III:

Lord Tywin steepled his fingers beneath his chin. "Balon Greyjoy think in terms of plunder, not rule. Let him enjoy an autumn crown and suffer a northern winter. He will give his subjects no cause to love him. Come spring, the northmen will have had a bellyful of krakens."

From AGoT, Bran III:

Now you know, the the crow whispered as he sat on his shoulder. Now you know why you must live.

"Why?" Bran said, not understanding, falling, falling.

Because winter is coming.

The last quote -- which ties directly to redriver's analysis of the Sansa-Bran relationship -- indicates that the survival of the Starks -- and Bran in particular -- is key to overcoming the threat directly tied to the impending winter (the Others). Tywin's musings on Balon's "autumn crown" are indicative that the Ironborn invasion of the North -- in which Theon and Asha played critical roles -- was doomed from the beginning (redriver also correctly pointed out that Asha was aware of this before arguing her case at the Kingsmoot in AFfC).

The quote that might hold the biggest clues/foreshadowing for Sansa as a "Queen of Winter" -- or the Stark siblings in general as rulers of winter -- is Ned's famed speech about the surviving pack. Ned points out to Arya that she and Sansa need each other (a possible foreshadowing of a renewed relationship in the final two books of the series); he also goes to great lengths to extol the virtues of working together. If and when the surviving Stark siblings find their way back to each other, they may well decide that the best way to achieve mastery over winter -- a mastery that need not be limited to the North -- is to rule as a pack. Sansa may well be granted the title of "Queen" as the oldest female Stark, but that does not necessarily mean she has to marry one of her male siblings, simply rule alongside them/aid them in the battles to come.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree that Stannis is more set againt having Tyrion on Ned's old seat of power then against Sansa simply for being married to him, however, Stannis is king. He goes by the book but is fully aware of his powers as such. Jon Snow is a bastard, yet Stannis only needs to say a word to undo it if it suits him. If Sansa comes to Stannis and tells him she had little say in it and wishes it was annuled, it is in his best interest to undo that as well. IIRC, only the high septon can annul a marriage, but Stannis cares little of the faith of the Seven, and Sansa was married in a cermony of a religion that is not hers. I don't think Stannis would have a problem with annuling the wedding with a word.

Actually, Sansa is the one Stark sibling that favors the Seven over the Old Gods; Robb, Arya, Bran, and Rickon observe both, while Jon adheres exclusively to the Old Gods.

From ACoK, Sansa II:

Sansa had favored her mother's gods over her father's. She loved the statues, the pictures in leaded glass, the fragrance of burning incense, the septons with their robes and crystals, the magical play of the rainbows over altars inlaid with mother-of-pearl and onyx and lapis lazuli. Yet she could not deny that the godswood had a certain power too. Especially by night. Help me, she prayed, send me a friend, a true knight to champion me...

Interestingly enough, while she does acknowledge the power of the Old Gods, she prays that they send her a knight, an individual that is heavily associated with the Faith of the Seven. It is only after her escape from King's Landing in ASoS that Sansa begins to gravitate more towards the Old Gods.

All this is to say that Sansa's religious beliefs cannot be used as grounds for dissolving her marriage to Tyrion (if that were the case, one could argue that Ned's marriage to Cat was invalid, since the ceremony took place in Riverrun's sept, not the godswood). The best bet for a dissolution is proving that the marriage was not consummated.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This came up earlier in the thread, but I would like to touch upon the idea of Sansa as a "Queen of Winter."

An interesting semantic note that has been noted by posters in other threads involves the royal titles assigned to the Starks: Kings in the North and Kings of Winter. Using in instead of of when referring to the North notes that the Stark's royal authority doesn't extend below the Neck -- a natural thing, since the southern lands were divided into six other jurisdictions -- but it also hints at there being negative consequences for those Starks who do venture south. This idea is brilliantly captured in two key events in Westerosi history: Torrhen Stark bending his knee to Aegon the Conqueror in the Riverlands, and Robb Stark's assassination at the Twins (also in the Riverlands).

To be king of something, however, indicates a mastery of said object or concept, one that is not limited by geography. We are of course all aware of the Stark words, and their unique standing in the Seven Kingdoms as the only ones that don't boast "of honor and glory," promise "loyalty and truth," or swear "faith and courage" (AGoT, Catelyn I). But we are also given several reminders throughout the text of the perils of winter and how the Starks -- and the Northerners in general -- are the only ones who truly understand its consequences.

From AGoT, Arya II:

From ACoK, Catelyn II:

From ASoS, Tyrion III:

From AGoT, Bran III:

The last quote -- which ties directly to redriver's analysis of the Sansa-Bran relationship -- indicates that the survival of the Starks -- and Bran in particular -- is key to overcoming the threat directly tied to the impending winter (the Others). Tywin's musings on Balon's "autumn crown" are indicative that the Ironborn invasion of the North -- in which Theon and Asha played critical roles -- was doomed from the beginning (redriver also correctly pointed out that Asha was aware of this before arguing her case at the Kingsmoot in AFfC).

The quote that might hold the biggest clues/foreshadowing for Sansa as a "Queen of Winter" -- or the Stark siblings in general as rulers of winter -- is Ned's famed speech about the surviving pack. Ned points out to Arya that she and Sansa need each other (a possible foreshadowing of a renewed relationship in the final two books of the series); he also goes to great lengths to extol the virtues of working together. If and when the surviving Stark siblings find their way back to each other, they may well decide that the best way to achieve mastery over winter -- a mastery that need not be limited to the North -- is to rule as a pack. Sansa may well be granted the title of "Queen" as the oldest female Stark, but that does not necessarily mean she has to marry one of her male siblings, simply rule alongside them/aid them in the battles to come.

Excellent post Redviper.We usually take Sansa's snow chapter as foreshadowing this Queen of Winterfell idea-"Winterfell.I feel stronger within the walls of Winterfell."But there's an earlier,and admittedly weaker passage all the way back in AGOT which reinforces the idea.This is after Joffrey has had Sansa beaten for Robb's crimes.

"I will need hot water for my bath, please," she told them,"and perfume,and some powder to hide this bruise."The right side of her face was swollen and beginning to ache,but she knew Joffrey would want her to be beautiful.The hot water made her think of Winterfell,and she took strength from that.

Much is made of Sansa being the Stark without a direwolf,but she's also a Stark without a heart tree.I'm open to correction here,but I don't think she ever gets access to a weirwood tree after she leaves Winterfell?Which is why I'm hoping there's one at The Gates of the Moon.

When you theorize about what may be happening in the overall story,you have to give some thought to where validation might come from.I think the only way validation of the Winter Fell theory or the Queen of Winter idea can come from is through Bran.He has access to the original Pact,as witnessed on the Isle of Faces,though he may have to take a crash course in Old Tongue to understand it.But it's likely that's when and where the Starks were granted Kings of Winter status,with attendant responsibilities.

If we take Jojen's "The wolves will come again" as a truth,then the remaining Starks need to get connected.Sansa,needs a heart tree to get truly connected to Bran.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey! I'm kinda new here, been lurking these forums for a while but I've been too shy to come out and post. I absolutely love Sansa and I just now found this thread, hopefully I can contribute something to the discussion :s

We'd love for you to share your thoughts :) and welcome!

Interestingly enough, while she does acknowledge the power of the Old Gods, she prays that they send her a knight, an individual that is heavily associated with the Faith of the Seven. It is only after her escape from King's Landing in ASoS that Sansa begins to gravitate more towards the Old Gods.

More proof of Sandor being their "chosen one," considering his views on knighthood?

Great post on the Queen/King of Winter possibility btw.

If we take Jojen's "The wolves will come again" as a truth, then the remaining Starks need to get connected. Sansa needs a heart tree to get truly connected to Bran.

Good points. I am still curious about the brief blackout she has before she builds snow Winterfell though. It's a very mystical experience, which may tie into this Queen of Winter theory and the idea that Sansa became enraptured almost. There's also Lady buried in the Lichyard, which might make signalling to her easier :dunno: Questions, questions...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This came up earlier in the thread, but I would like to touch upon the idea of Sansa as a "Queen of Winter."

An interesting semantic note that has been noted by posters in other threads involves the royal titles assigned to the Starks: Kings in the North and Kings of Winter. Using in instead of of when referring to the North notes that the Stark's royal authority doesn't extend below the Neck -- a natural thing, since the southern lands were divided into six other jurisdictions -- but it also hints at there being negative consequences for those Starks who do venture south. This idea is brilliantly captured in two key events in Westerosi history: Torrhen Stark bending his knee to Aegon the Conqueror in the Riverlands, and Robb Stark's assassination at the Twins (also in the Riverlands).

To be king of something, however, indicates a mastery of said object or concept, one that is not limited by geography. We are of course all aware of the Stark words, and their unique standing in the Seven Kingdoms as the only ones that don't boast "of honor and glory," promise "loyalty and truth," or swear "faith and courage" (AGoT, Catelyn I). But we are also given several reminders throughout the text of the perils of winter and how the Starks -- and the Northerners in general -- are the only ones who truly understand its consequences.

From AGoT, Arya II:

From ACoK, Catelyn II:

From ASoS, Tyrion III:

From AGoT, Bran III:

The last quote -- which ties directly to redriver's analysis of the Sansa-Bran relationship -- indicates that the survival of the Starks -- and Bran in particular -- is key to overcoming the threat directly tied to the impending winter (the Others). Tywin's musings on Balon's "autumn crown" are indicative that the Ironborn invasion of the North -- in which Theon and Asha played critical roles -- was doomed from the beginning (redriver also correctly pointed out that Asha was aware of this before arguing her case at the Kingsmoot in AFfC).

The quote that might hold the biggest clues/foreshadowing for Sansa as a "Queen of Winter" -- or the Stark siblings in general as rulers of winter -- is Ned's famed speech about the surviving pack. Ned points out to Arya that she and Sansa need each other (a possible foreshadowing of a renewed relationship in the final two books of the series); he also goes to great lengths to extol the virtues of working together. If and when the surviving Stark siblings find their way back to each other, they may well decide that the best way to achieve mastery over winter -- a mastery that need not be limited to the North -- is to rule as a pack. Sansa may well be granted the title of "Queen" as the oldest female Stark, but that does not necessarily mean she has to marry one of her male siblings, simply rule alongside them/aid them in the battles to come.

:thumbsup: Nice! I like this a lot. I do feel that the Stark kids, if they come back into rule, will do so as a "pack" or unit. That if any one Stark gets the title of King/Queen, it will be a figurehead title more or less and that they will govern as a unit, each having their own say. Sansa may end up with the title (but for some reason, i see her taking the Vale...), but she wont be the central force moving the Northern pieces. They all will. (thats if they all reunite. Lets all hope so.)

Sansa has developed a strength in observing her surroundings. While Arya seems more apt to be the "Varys" type figure, Sansa could be more of a "Hand of the King" figure. Once she learns how to carry out political decisions (which im pretty sure shes on that path), she could prove to be a formidable figure in a ruling situation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Much is made of Sansa being the Stark without a direwolf,but she's also a Stark without a heart tree.I'm open to correction here,but I don't think she ever gets access to a weirwood tree after she leaves Winterfell?Which is why I'm hoping there's one at The Gates of the Moon.

When you theorize about what may be happening in the overall story,you have to give some thought to where validation might come from.I think the only way validation of the Winter Fell theory or the Queen of Winter idea can come from is through Bran.He has access to the original Pact,as witnessed on the Isle of Faces,though he may have to take a crash course in Old Tongue to understand it.But it's likely that's when and where the Starks were granted Kings of Winter status,with attendant responsibilities.

If we take Jojen's "The wolves will come again" as a truth,then the remaining Starks need to get connected.Sansa,needs a heart tree to get truly connected to Bran.

Sansa hasn't been around a heart tree that we know about since arriving in King's Landing. She did, however, stop at the Gates of the Moon on her way to the Eyrie. If there is a heart tree there then she should have seen it then... but not for very long (Petyr also might have discouraged her from praying there to keep her identity a secret.) Even so things have changed since then: winter has come and Bran is further advanced in his storyline.

I think you're right in that any validation would probably come from Bran, but another source of information might be the White Walkers (if anyone ever manages to talk to them) or even the Wildlings (if some of the more out there Val=priestess theories have some validity).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Much is made of Sansa being the Stark without a direwolf,but she's also a Stark without a heart tree.I'm open to correction here,but I don't think she ever gets access to a weirwood tree after she leaves Winterfell?Which is why I'm hoping there's one at The Gates of the Moon.

I think there are two other locations where Sansa might find herself in front of a weirwood: Runestone and Harrenhal.

Runestone is Bronze Yohn Royce's seat, and his stifled desire to support Robb and his very open opposition of Littlefinger's continued rule of the Vale makes him a possible ally for Sansa. Though the Royces now appear to adhere to the Seven (all of Bronze Yohn's sons are/were anointed knights, as I recall), they trace their lineage to the First Men, and there are still key vestiges of that descent in the family. The Royces famously use bronze armor, with bronze being a metal that is heavily associated with the First Men and the Kings in the North/Kings of Winter (the First Men introduced bronze to Westeros; the crown of the Kings in the North is made of bronze; the Reeds make a note of mentioning bronze in their oath of fealty). Said bronze armor is also inlaid with runes, which was the writing method used by the First Men. It would not surprise me if Runestone's godswood still featured a weirwood heart tree, or if Sansa somehow found her way there.

Harrenhal is of course Littlefinger's official seat of power. Its weirwood has already played a pivotal role in Arya's arc: it was there that she had the conversation with Jaqen H'ghar that started the chain of events that culminated in weasel soup; and it was there that she heard her father's voice, which gave her the courage to abandon Harrenhal before Roose Bolton handed it over to Vargo Hoat. It is possible that Harrenhal could come into play in Sansa's arc, either through Littlefinger's going there, or as a central marshaling point for forces in the upcoming conflict.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

snip

Excellent as usual :)

The theme of lying to protect is a great catch. I believe this pattern also emphasizes Sansa’s closeness to her parents and her resistance to Alayne and Littlefinger. You did a great job in highlighting all the Sansa references in Alayne’s chapters. They symbolize her Stark identity and I believe that her correcting Littlefinger early in AGOT “I’m Sansa Stark” is a crucial foreshadowing for the upcoming novels.

Now, based on the last part of your essay, I’m curious to see how Littefinger’s demise will happen as there are many possibilities.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lots and lots to read. Just dropping by to say I'm loving this thread. I've come to appreciate..no, I actually enjoy reading Sansa's. I think she gets a lot of unfounded hate but to me she's a very interesting character. What I like the most about her is her adaptability. She may cry and act like the young girl she is but she's got a talent for adaptation and that gives her good odds for survival. As good as Arya's and maybe more. I'm looking forward to see her becoming the pupil that surpasses her master.

ETA: sp.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×