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R + L = J v 50


Stubby

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Welcome on board :)

Very interesting catch.

It could also relate to our old discussion about Rhaegar's red rubies (= life force) casting their shadows (= blood legacy) on the...Snow.

Thank you! I've been on the boards for some time now, but a welcome is always appreciated. :)

This is very nice! The kind of stuff we ought to spend our time on. The red dragon ties into something I think about a lot, the connection of ASoIaF to Welsh legend. Thanks for pointing it out.

You're welcome. :)

And Happy 50th anniversary to all of you regulars, I guess. :D

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I wouldn't preclude the possibility its entirely based on a 'fixed that for you" version of Roberts official history, not the actual events - which neither Dany nor anyone she's had contact with have much chance of knowing.

I think that's the point. Sometimes it seems like ASoIaF is one long game of telephone or, to mix my metaphors, like one of those 3D pictures where you only "see" if you look from just the right angle with your eyes kind of half shut. This case the contrary nature of Dany's snippets of "knowledge" highlights that, but often you can find the grain of truth if you look from the right direction.

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It's R+L=J Golden Anniversary. Happy anniversary, since no else is going do it, I guess I gotta play a little song for you.

This one goes out to you baby "sniffle."

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=LKfTqOsnOpM&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DLKfTqOsnOpM

Lol.

I was thinking of fireworks, but this works.

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Although R+L= J makes perfect sense still hoping that he is Ned's Jon has too much Stark in him but i have to admit i believe he is Rhaghar's

If he is Lyanna's son then he would still have a lot of Stark in him. That would not change.

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He had nearly 15 years to tell Jon, not to mention Cat. There's absolutely no reason to keep that secret unless the secret is so dangerous that it must be kept. "Some lies are worth telling."

I agree that it's worth thinking about other possibilities but other possibilities must pass, what I consider, the primary litmus test before further consideration should be given - Why would X woman be cause to keep it so secret from everyone?

Yes, it's a constantly renewing population.

I think he didn't tell Cat because if he gave a name to the woman Cat would become so much more jealous. When I read the series for the first time, Jons parentage did not strike me as odd, did it for you, the first time round?

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I think he didn't tell Cat because if he gave a name to the woman Cat would become so much more jealous. When I read the series for the first time, Jons parentage did not strike me as odd, did it for you, the first time round?

I thought that the secrecy about his mother was a bit weird, but it never really occured to me that he was anything but Ned's bastard. I had to read it twice more to figure it out.

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A worthy plan.

There is no reason for them to change their plans at this stage. The old problem of family approval, not to mention Aerys not being trustworthy with Lyanna's safety, remain. And there is no chance the'd heard the news so quickly either

Those at ToJ have no chance of knowing at this stage, so still no reason to go.

Absent being on the raven network (which I think is in universal agreement) it should take longer for them to get the news that the whole Trident-> sack time period.

And they still don't know so have no reason to move.

The most likely scenario is that they learn of all the events, Trident, Viserys fleeing and Sack together. Who is going to inform them earlier?

Yet after the sack, the raven network will be busy proclaiming Robert the new King, the rebellion over and the deaths of the Targaryens. Then anyone who knows their location (someone from Starfall?) and is on the Raven network can send them the news of the changed circumstances.

Given that first news disseminates from KL out, and then a message is sent, by horse at fastest, they are unlikely to hear within 2-3 weeks of the sack, meaning they've probably only got the news a week or two at most before Ned arrives. And around the same time Jon is born.

I wouldn't preclude the possibility its entirely based on a 'fixed that for you" version of Roberts official history, not the actual events - which neither Dany nor anyone she's had contact with have much chance of knowing.

Of course, bad information could make things worse. This is a constant in the series; those people acted on rumours rather than news.

In any event, the behaviour of those at ToJ is logical, on the assumption that R+L=J.

(Otoh, should they'd acted different, they'd ruined the novel)

It's the outstanding reason to be of this scene. Jon's rights aren't that important, IMO.

In the end, a tragic love story, with a sad moral, like love stinks (but some roses can disguise).

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I think he didn't tell Cat because if he gave a name to the woman Cat would become so much more jealous. When I read the series for the first time, Jons parentage did not strike me as odd, did it for you, the first time round?

That's the point. No, regarding me, I didn't. I was so caught up on events, and thought that either there is no mystery or the mystery will be revealed when it's time. Frankly, the books are written in such a way that at this point you have no reason to care really.

When I read the thoughtful, yet simple and well exposed analyses, I had zero doubt in my mind.

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I think he didn't tell Cat because if he gave a name to the woman Cat would become so much more jealous. When I read the series for the first time, Jons parentage did not strike me as odd, did it for you, the first time round?

It did it for me after watching the first episode of the TV show... The long scene in the crypts, with the close-up on Lyanna's statue didn't have any sense from a narrative point of view unless there was more to her story. I guessed Jon's mother, not the father though (at first I thought it was Robert :blushing: ). I'll admit, it was Jon's ancestry intriguing factor that drove me to the books ;)

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Of course, bad information could make things worse. This is a constant in the series; those people acted on rumours rather than news.

In any event, the behaviour of those at ToJ is logical, on the assumption that R+L=J.

(Otoh, should they'd acted different, they'd ruined the novel)

It's the outstanding reason to be of this scene. Jon's rights aren't that important, IMO.

In the end, a tragic love story, with a sad moral, like love stinks (but some roses can disguise).

:agree: It's Martin's own take on the ol' good theme of eros&thanatos.

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It did it for me after watching the first episode of the TV show... The long scene in the crypts, with the close-up on Lyanna's statue didn't have any sense from a narrative point of view unless there was more to her story. I guessed Jon's mother, not the father though (at first I thought it was Robert :blushing: ). I'll admit, it was Jon's ancestry intriguing factor that drove me to the books ;)

Wow, I have to say it is quite impressive you managed to work that out after one episode of the tv show! It took me the entire book series and many in depth analysis readings to become pretty much certain who Jon's parents were :P

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Wow, I have to say it is quite impressive you managed to work that out after one episode of the tv show! It took me the entire book series and many in depth analysis readings to become pretty much certain who Jon's parents were :P

Blame my irredeemable suspicious mind :lol:

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Thank god! And for new members or regular members who are just new to this specific thread, please read the long post above by Winds of Winter blow cold before you start bombarding us with reasons why you think R+L=J isn't true that have already been argued against a billion times over on these specific R+L=J threads at this point.

Where's the fun in that? ;)

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No basis at all according to the KG "textbook". I simply beleive that this is what they were doing.

Perhaps I should start from another point to make myself clear. For reasons I have explained in the past I don’t believe that Jon is Rhaegar’s child. Based on that, the KG’s presence at the ToJ, imo, isn’t related to Jon or Lyanna, or at least not strictly and solely related to them. Therefore, I’m more willing to accept a theory that places the true Aegon in the Tower, which would explain the fight between the KGs and Eddard and Eddard’s journey to Starfall much better, or a theory that suggests that they simply stayed there to honor the last order from their dead prince and last as a matter of fact, since the dynasty’s rule had come to an end.

One more thing, if the Gold cloaks were enough for the king and the rest loyal family I am sure the army on Dragonstone would be enough for Viserys and Rhaella, plus the sea between them and Robert.

The Goldcloaks were defending the city, the royal family had household knights and men-at-arms and at least one KG.

BTW, if Aegon lived and was at ToJ, you have exactly the same reasoning for the KG presence as in the case of dead Aegon and legit John, so I really don't see your point against it.

The interesting thing about these Dany references is that the last one seems to contradict all of the others, until you look a bit closer. I always found it out of place, since most of the references from Dany's POV are so positive, that there would be this one story which seemed to corroborate Robert's version of events. Upon consideration though, it doesn't necessarily mean Lyanna was taken unwillingly- only that someone was unwilling to let her go. It may not be significant, just my two cents for the moment. I'll give this some more thought though and see if I can dig up any others.

Indeed ;)

I wouldn't exclude the possibility of a well devised act either. Rhaegar taking the full blame to keep Lyanna's honour 'unbersmirched'.

Oh, I think that the parallel Dany draws here is most interesting: a lady in love but duty-bound to marry an unloved man, and her beloved takes the matter into his hand to relieve her of the unwated union while she is not guilty of breaking the betrothal.

And, yes, it totally doesn't mean that Lyanna went unwillingly (especially in the context when Dany would have been more than willing) but that there was opposition.

I think he didn't tell Cat because if he gave a name to the woman Cat would become so much more jealous. When I read the series for the first time, Jons parentage did not strike me as odd, did it for you, the first time round?

Lady of the Winterfell jealous of some commonborn Wylla? Not very plausible.

Yes, it struck me as odd on the very first read, namely Ned's silence on one hand, and the contradicting version from the Targaryen side on the other. So I went on a re-read of the relevant PoVs, and pieced it together.

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Twinslayre wrote on thread 49:

I would think that in the absence of a king, a Great Council could legitimize a bastard and make him king. During the Great Council that put Egg on the throne, there was no king. The Council skipped over rival claimants to pick Egg. In fact, if Jon takes the Iron Throne, I think it is very possible that that is how he'll do it. But during all the jockeying, his rivals will argue that he should not be king because he is a bastard
The problem is that if the council were to convene, and Viserys were dead the crown would go to Robert Baratheon because of his Targaryen ancestry. So, saying that a Targaryen bastard had a shot, is like arguing as Oak did that he agreed with everything, but that it was only such a percentage possible. He wanted GRRM's novel to be written from the omniscient point of view intead of third person, because it is easier to understand plot points in the former. No one is going to "know" that Jon Snow is really a legitimate Targaryen, for quite some time in the story. We can asseess actions of people who knew (the Kingsguard at the tower). We can collect evidence from what others knew of the story and try to piece it all together, but that raises questions about the relevance and veracity. The chance of a Targaryen bastard being appointed by a council is slim and none, and slim left town.

By the way, if the Kingsguard was up for guarding Targaryen bastards, there were a few Targaryen Kings that left plenty in Essos. I don't recall a lot of Kingsguard being left behind to guard them.

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