R + L = J v 50

[Ser Creighton]

Twinslayre wrote on thread 49:

The problem is that if the council were to convene, and Viserys were dead the crown would go to Robert Baratheon because of his Targaryen ancestry. So, saying that a Targaryen bastard had a shot, is like arguing as Oak did that he agreed with everything, but that it was only such a percentage possible. He wanted GRRM's novel to be written from the omniscient point of view intead of third person, because it is easier to understand plot points in the former. No one is going to "know" that Jon Snow is really a legitimate Targaryen, for quite some time in the story. We can asseess actions of people who knew (the Kingsguard at the tower). We can collect evidence from what others knew of the story and try to piece it all together, but that raises questions about the relevance and veracity. The chance of a Targaryen bastard being appointed by a council is slim and none, and slim left town.

By the way, if the Kingsguard was up for guarding Targaryen bastards, there were a few Targaryen Kings that left plenty in Essos. I don't recall a lot of Kingsguard being left behind to guard them.

They would also have to be making multiple giant assumptions about the council, like they are alive.

[FittleLinger]

Well the good news is it's pretty clear that Ashara still has some part to play in the story so you may at least get some Ned Ashara flashback from Howland. And I think some stuff about Arthur and House Dayne. I myself am obsessed with house Dayne. Don't know why, 10,000 year old house, castle called Starfall, the sword of the morning, Dawn, Darkstar and Edric who seemed like good people, Wylla. Hell what's not to like? I could read a book on that house. Always wanted the Daynes and the Starks to be related somehow. Hope Ashara lives, that is just such a shit way to die. I want some house Dayne in book six. A Darkstar POV, would love to see inside that head.

With Balon hunting for him, we might get a Darkstar prologue...

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

With Balon hunting for him, we might get a Darkstar prologue...

:o

[Ser Creighton]

With Balon hunting for him, we might get a Darkstar prologue...

You know given his age he may have some insight into Jon and the Tower. Ned would of had to pass by High Hermatige on his way to Starfall. On the map it looks like it's similar to the Moon Gates, it's right on the Road to Starfall. Also would of gone past house Manwoody. Pretty sure someone notices Ned has a baby with him. Often wonder what House Martell and the rest of Dorne made of the events at the Tower considering it took place in Dorne. Wouldn't it be messed up if Darkstar passes by where the Tower of Joy used to be or hid in he ruins for a night. It would be a good way to get back to the Tower and get a Dornish perspective on the events.

[Ser Creighton]

:o

I hope he is the biggest cheese ball ego maniac alive and we get it. "My name is Darkstar, damn I am good looking. I am such a bad ass, that little princess thought she stood a chance but I showed her. I'm Darkstar and I approve this message."

[Jon Icefyre]

Well the good news is it's pretty clear that Ashara still has some part to play in the story so you may at least get some Ned Ashara flashback from Howland. And I think some stuff about Arthur and House Dayne. I myself am obsessed with house Dayne. Don't know why, 10,000 year old house, castle called Starfall, the sword of the morning, Dawn, Darkstar and Edric who seemed like good people, Wylla. Hell what's not to like? I could read a book on that house. Always wanted the Daynes and the Starks to be related somehow. Hope Ashara lives, that is just such a shit way to die. I want some house Dayne in book six. A Darkstar POV, would love to see inside that head.

With Balon hunting for him, we might get a Darkstar prologue...

You know given his age he may have some insight into Jon and the Tower. Ned would of had to pass by High Hermatige on his way to Starfall. On the map it looks like it's similar to the Moon Gates, it's right on the Road to Starfall. Also would of gone past house Manwoody. Pretty sure someone notices Ned has a baby with him. Often wonder what House Martell and the rest of Dorne made of the events at the Tower considering it took place in Dorne. Wouldn't it be messed up if Darkstar passes by where the Tower of Joy used to be or hid in he ruins for a night. It would be a good way to get back to the Tower and get a Dornish perspective on the events.

:agree: I for one love house Dayne and would love to get so more info/back story on them in the next book!

[Ygrain]

With Balon hunting for him, we might get a Darkstar prologue...

One more thing to look forward to :-)

[corbon]

You know given his age he may have some insight into Jon and the Tower.

We know anything at all about his age?

Given he appears to be a comtemporary of Arianne, who is around... 26?, he'd have been a child during the events of Roberts Rebellion, no?

[Jon Icefyre]

One more thing to look forward to :-)

The interesting thing about the "hunt for Darkstar" is that in Arianne's sample pov chapter from WoW she actually says Areo Hotah is hunting him too and that no man can stand before Hotah, and yet Daemon Sand doesn't seem convinced that Darkstar will meet his demise goin so far as to say even Oberyn Martell acknowledged the danger of Darkstar and that Ser Gerold is more of a viper than Oberyn ever was. What is it about Darkstar that seems to have everyone in Dorne so spooked? With ppl like Oberyn labeling him as 'dangerous,' and Arianne identifying him as her most grievous sin(meaning they probably had sex), while prince Doran is calling him the "most dangerous man in Dorne".

I truly think this guy is much more of a badass than most readers assume, and that he definitely has secrete intel of some sort that if revealed, could possibly have very 'dangerous' ramifications.....

[Ser Creighton]

We know anything at all about his age?

Given he appears to be a comtemporary of Arianne, who is around... 26?, he'd have been a child during the events of Roberts Rebellion, no?

Yep, he would of been a kid, but kids remember better than most, plus it may be a subject he grew up knowing, being a Dayne and living in Dorne. He might know some of the things his family think about it. He may remember a knight long ago when The Lord of Winterfell his self passed by High Hermitage. It would of been a big deal. Also more insight into house Dayne and what they think of the Tower of Joy "then and now." See what I did there? Plus being on the run he needs a place to hide and could pass by the old ruin in the pass might be intresting to see what he sees.

I don't know if it will happen, but Martin is funny when it comes to the Daynes. Everytime he is asked question about them he plays dumb like they mean nothing but boy are they tied to the Starks and the mystery of the Tower of Joy.

Arthur Dayne at the Tower of Joy with Rhaegar for most of the R+L=J History Also was at Harrenhal, Eddard has a man crush on him.

Ashara at Harrenhal had some sort of relationship with Eddard, waited for Eddard to return Dawn to her family, killed herself. Supposedly loved Eddard.

Edric Dayne, meets Arya, wanted to talk to Eddard, relates the story of Wylla and Ashara to Arya.

Allyria Dayne told Edric about Ashara being in love with Ned.

Wylla Jons wet nurse at Starfall also his supposed mother

Bran Stark recalls Arthur Dayne someone his dad actually talked about after the events at least once. Bran remembers the story of Dawn and imagins a Sword filled with Starfire.

Darkstar Ser Gerold Dayne, comes out of left field, kind of takes a dig at Arthur, even though Oakheart corrects him. Again an Oakheart standing up for a Dayne to a Dayne. I am convinced that Arthur Dayne crapped diamonds.

I know you know this stuff. Yet you ask Martin about them and he gets all "Dayne? Dayne? Their from the west right? Near Lannisport? A sigil of pink and blue?

[Ser Creighton]

The interesting thing about the "hunt for Darkstar" is that in Arianne's sample pov chapter from WoW she actually says Areo Hotah is hunting him too and that no man can stand before Hotah, and yet Daemon Sand doesn't seem convinced that Darkstar will meet his demise goin so far as to say even Oberyn Martell acknowledged the danger of Darkstar and that Ser Gerold is more of a viper than Oberyn ever was. What is it about Darkstar that seems to have everyone in Dorne so spooked? With ppl like Oberyn labeling him as 'dangerous,' and Arianne identifying him as her most grievous sin(meaning they probably had sex), while prince Doran is calling him the "most dangerous man in Dorne".

I truly think this guy is much more of a badass than most readers assume, and that he definitely has secrete intel of some sort that if revealed, could possibly have very 'dangerous' ramifications.....

Sample chapter???? Arianne never sept with him, he is her biggest mistake because of what he did to Myrcella. She thought about it, saying he was high highborn enough to be her consort, but thought better of it. Well Doran might be saying that because he knows the truth about Myrcella not that anyone would believe him. But Myrcella also knows the truth so that doesn't make sense. Wonder what he knows? Hell why the hell did he do what he did? House Dayne, all the good shit is waiting to come from House Dayne and Howland Reed.

Hotah, ha! "To me Darkstar is that wall, shoved to near to me. Sometimes I think there is naught beyond what we have seen. But tis enough. He tasks me; he heaps me; I see in him outragous strength with an inscrutable malice sinewing it. That inscrutable thing is chiefly what I hate; and be the Darkstar agent, or be the Darkstar principle, I will wreak that hate upon him. Talk not to me of blasphemy, man; I'd strike the sun if it insulted me. For could the sun do that than I the other. Truth hath no confines!"

"It was that accursed Darkstar that razeed the child; made a poor scarfaced lubber of her for ever and a day! And I'll chase him round The Arbor, and round the Bite, and round the Blackwater Bay, and round R'hllor's flame before I give him up."

[Jon Icefyre]

Sample chapter???? Arianne never sept with him, he is her biggest mistake because of what he did to Myrcella. She thought about it, saying he was high highborn enough to be her consort, but thought better of it. Well Doran might be saying that because he knows the truth about Myrcella not that anyone would believe him. But Myrcella also knows the truth so that doesn't make sense. Wonder what he knows? Hell why the hell did he do what he did? House Dayne, all the good shit is waiting to come from House Dayne and Howland Reed.

Hotah, ha! "To me Darkstar is that wall, shoved to near to me. Sometimes I think there is naught beyond what we have seen. But tis enough. He tasks me; he heaps me; I see in him outragous strength with an inscrutable malice sinewing it. That inscrutable thing is chiefly what I hate; and be the Darkstar agent, or be the Darkstar principle, I will wreak that hate upon him. Talk not to me of blasphemy, man; I'd strike the sun if it insulted me. For could the sun do that than I the other. Truth hath no confines!"

"It was that accursed Darkstar that razeed the child; made a poor scarfaced lubber of her for ever and a day! And I'll chase him round The Arbor, and round the Bite, and round the Blackwater Bay, and round R'hllor's flame before I give him up."

Ya this sample chapter: http://www.georgerrm...inds-of-winter/

In this chapter Arianne further reflects on her encounter with Darkstar and the way she say he was her most grievous sin the one she regretted the most, to me suggests they had sex at some point, as fornication is definitely the sin most associated with Arianne. And I think Darkstar's action's in AFFC is obviously why Arianne is ashamed that she slept with him.

"Poison, thought Arianne. Yes. Pretty poison, though. That was how he’d fooled her. Gerold Dayne was hard and cruel, but so fair to look upon that the princess had not believed half the tales she’d heard of him. Pretty boys had ever been her weakness, particularly the ones who were dark and dangerous as well. That was before, when I was just a girl, she told herself. I am a woman now, my father’s daughter. I have learned that lesson."

I think she's definitely hinting to the reader that Darkstar seduced her into bed at some point before Arianne's rebellion plot was ruined. We'll probably get more information on the subject in the other Arianne POV chapters when the sixth book is released.

[Ser Creighton]

Ya this sample chapter: http://www.georgerrm...inds-of-winter/

In this chapter Arianne further reflects on her encounter with Darkstar and the way she say he was her most grievous sin the one she regretted the most, to me suggests they had sex at some point, as fornication is definitely the sin most associated with Arianne. And I think Darkstar's action's in AFFC is obviously why Arianne is ashamed that she slept with him.

"Poison, thought Arianne. Yes. Pretty poison, though. That was how he’d fooled her. Gerold Dayne was hard and cruel, but so fair to look upon that the princess had not believed half the tales she’d heard of him. Pretty boys had ever been her weakness, particularly the ones who were dark and dangerous as well. That was before, when I was just a girl, she told herself. I am a woman now, my father’s daughter. I have learned that lesson."

I think she's definitely hinting to the reader that Darkstar seduced her into bed at some point before Arianne's rebellion plot was ruined. We'll probably get more information on the subject in the other Arianne POV chapters when the sixth book is released.

Could be but Arianne isn't really shy about sex, most Dornish women are cool with it. She has slept with a few people and manipulating Arys would be a bigger Sin than sleeping with Darkstar wouldn't it? Thanks for the chapter. The lesson she learned occurred right after the Darkstar incident when she was acting like a child but Prince Doran set her right and now she is working with him not against him. But who knows. Arianne getting around does not seem to bother her at all. How bad could the sex have been, did she tie him up and go all Ramsay on him?

[Jon Icefyre]

Could be but Arianne isn't really shy about sex, most Dornish women are cool with it. She has slept with a few people and manipulating Arys would be a bigger Sin than sleeping with Darkstar wouldn't it? Thanks for the chapter. The lesson she learned occurred right after the Darkstar incident when she was acting like a child but Prince Doran set her right and now she is working with him not against him. But who knows. Arianne getting around does not seem to bother her at all. How bad could the sex have been, did she tie him up and go all Ramsay on him?

No problem and I don't think it's the sex itself that bothers her as much as who the person she had sex with turned out to truly be. She doesn't see what she did with Arys as being as big of a sin as Ser Gerold, becuase Arys did not turn out to be the monster that Darkstar is. Again it's more of a shameful feeling than anything because she was seduced and then fooled by the man(Darkstar) who tried to murder an innocent girl. The line about how, "pretty boys had always been her weakness" to me is a big indication that they had sex. From what we know so far about Arianne and her promiscuity she doesn't seem like the type of woman that would allow herself to be manipulated by a man who wasn't using sex as a means of manipulation, so by 'weakness' I think she means being seduced..

[Eurybia]

The interesting thing about these Dany references is that the last one seems to contradict all of the others, until you look a bit closer. I always found it out of place, since most of the references from Dany's POV are so positive, that there would be this one story which seemed to corroborate Robert's version of events. Upon consideration though, it doesn't necessarily mean Lyanna was taken unwillingly- only that someone was unwilling to let her go. It may not be significant, just my two cents for the moment. I'll give this some more thought though and see if I can dig up any others.

Either one or two threads ago in a discussion of the whys and whens of Lyanna's "abduction", someone brought up the idea that Rhaegar may have drawn his sword to forstall any possible skirmish, if they were at a place such as the Inn at the Crossroads. A prince seemingly challenging anyone who objected would have been pretty powerful. A story like that might have circulated, and been misinterpreted by Robert (for obvious reasons) and by Viserys (who had reason to like stories of men simply taking what they wanted, ie: how he was planning on taking back "his" kingdom).

I think he didn't tell Cat because if he gave a name to the woman Cat would become so much more jealous. When I read the series for the first time, Jons parentage did not strike me as odd, did it for you, the first time round?

It did, actually. I texted a friend of mine halfway though and asked when Jon Snow's mom was revealed. She was like, "..... Not yet...." I didn't think either option given in aGoT made much sense.

I think one of the things that makes it so interesting is because of how the clues are layered in misinformation, and come from totally random places, like Dany's visions that seemingly have nothing to do with Jon or Ned or Lyanna.

[Ygrain]

The interesting thing about the "hunt for Darkstar" is that in Arianne's sample pov chapter from WoW she actually says Areo Hotah is hunting him too and that no man can stand before Hotah, and yet Daemon Sand doesn't seem convinced that Darkstar will meet his demise goin so far as to say even Oberyn Martell acknowledged the danger of Darkstar and that Ser Gerold is more of a viper than Oberyn ever was. What is it about Darkstar that seems to have everyone in Dorne so spooked? With ppl like Oberyn labeling him as 'dangerous,' and Arianne identifying him as her most grievous sin(meaning they probably had sex), while prince Doran is calling him the "most dangerous man in Dorne".

I truly think this guy is much more of a badass than most readers assume, and that he definitely has secrete intel of some sort that if revealed, could possibly have very 'dangerous' ramifications.....

He is definitely a badass, to that I will agree (and it must have been a blow for his ego, not being able to off one little girl), but I think that this - and his character, or rather the lack thereof - is the reason why he is labelled as dangerous. While Oberyn certainly had no scrupules killing someone, I don't think he revelled in killing. Darkstar has the strong vibes of Lynn Corbray (minus the boys), a cold-blooded killer who kills for the sake of killing, ruthless and of twisted mind.

Ya this sample chapter: http://www.georgerrm...inds-of-winter/

In this chapter Arianne further reflects on her encounter with Darkstar and the way she say he was her most grievous sin the one she regretted the most, to me suggests they had sex at some point, as fornication is definitely the sin most associated with Arianne. And I think Darkstar's action's in AFFC is obviously why Arianne is ashamed that she slept with him.

"Poison, thought Arianne. Yes. Pretty poison, though. That was how he’d fooled her. Gerold Dayne was hard and cruel, but so fair to look upon that the princess had not believed half the tales she’d heard of him. Pretty boys had ever been her weakness, particularly the ones who were dark and dangerous as well. That was before, when I was just a girl, she told herself. I am a woman now, my father’s daughter. I have learned that lesson."

I think she's definitely hinting to the reader that Darkstar seduced her into bed at some point before Arianne's rebellion plot was ruined. We'll probably get more information on the subject in the other Arianne POV chapters when the sixth book is released.

Yes, weakness definitely refers to being seduced, rather than seducing him, but the information is already in ADWD - when she notes that if Darkstar looks at her like that in Arys' presence, it will come to a fight. And yes, having slept with someone who turns out to be a killer of little girls... tough.

Either one or two threads ago in a discussion of the whys and whens of Lyanna's "abduction", someone brought up the idea that Rhaegar may have drawn his sword to forstall any possible skirmish, if they were at a place such as the Inn at the Crossroads. A prince seemingly challenging anyone who objected would have been pretty powerful. A story like that might have circulated, and been misinterpreted by Robert (for obvious reasons) and by Viserys (who had reason to like stories of men simply taking what they wanted, ie: how he was planning on taking back "his" kingdom).

Sounds pretty plausible :-)

[FrozenFire3]

Disclaimer: no harm(ful theory) intended, all in good fun ;)

A little curious factlet...

This are the dragon egg props as showed on tv: http://i.imgur.com/qYzEw.jpg

This is instead what's currently on display at the GoT Exhibition touring worldwide (now in Amsterdam): http://1.bp.blogspot...DRAGON EGGS.JPG

One egg is notably missing. The green one, Rhaegal's.

According to this article: http://winteriscomin...s-in-amsterdam/ the third was given as a wedding present to GRRM... Random coincidence? Personal preference? Insider joke? For some reasons I always thought that should Jon ever ride/warg a dragon that would be the one... Just saying :)

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Either one or two threads ago in a discussion of the whys and whens of Lyanna's "abduction", someone brought up the idea that Rhaegar may have drawn his sword to forstall any possible skirmish, if they were at a place such as the Inn at the Crossroads. A prince seemingly challenging anyone who objected would have been pretty powerful. A story like that might have circulated, and been misinterpreted by Robert (for obvious reasons) and by Viserys (who had reason to like stories of men simply taking what they wanted, ie: how he was planning on taking back "his" kingdom).

ohh.. I think that was me! Guess I forgot to take my fish oil :blushing:

Regarding Darkstar- Ser C and Jon, I agree with you. We are told how "dangerous" he is repeatedly and I think GRRM does that for a reason. What if the true "danger" is his knowledge? I recently posted in another thread how curious it's always seemed to me that High Hermitage is right on the most reasonable route from ToJ to Starfall and here we have this mysterious, dangerous character who would have been a young child during the Rebellion. Who better to hide behind a rock and get an eye- or earful than an 8-10 year old? To add to that though, if they needed supplies or servants at the Tower and didn't want to go all the way to Starfall (or maybe wanted to avoid awkward questions there) where better to go than Ser Arthur's cousins at HH? Perhaps, when the need for a maester became pressing they may have "borrowed" HH's?

The only way we'll ever get this possible knowledge is if DS spills his guts to someone (Arianne?) which I find slightly less likely than a prologue/epilogue scenario. Actually hoping for the latter :devil:

[Ygrain]

ohh.. I think that was me! Guess I forgot to take my fish oil :blushing:

Regarding Darkstar- Ser C and Jon, I agree with you. We are told how "dangerous" he is repeatedly and I think GRRM does that for a reason. What if the true "danger" is his knowledge? I recently posted in another thread how curious it's always seemed to me that High Hermitage is right on the most reasonable route from ToJ to Starfall and here we have this mysterious, dangerous character who would have been a young child during the Rebellion. Who better to hide behind a rock and get an eye- or earful than an 8-10 year old? To add to that though, if they needed supplies or servants at the Tower and didn't want to go all the way to Starfall (or maybe wanted to avoid awkward questions there) where better to go than Ser Arthur's cousins at HH? Perhaps, when the need for a maester became pressing they may have "borrowed" HH's?

The only way we'll ever get this possible knowledge is if DS spills his guts to someone (Arianne?) which I find slightly less likely than a prologue/epilogue scenario. Actually hoping for the latter :devil:

That part with his spillt guts is something I would much like to see :devil:

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

That part with his spillt guts is something I would much like to see :devil:

:rofl: