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R + L = J v 50


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The idea that Tywin couldn't find Aegon so he had the Mountain murder a different child in such a way that the child was unrecognizable actually makes more sense than Varys' switching babies.

We saw Theon do the same thing with the miller's boys (or was one of them his?).

Ya but Varys says he made the switch and I don't really see why he wouldn't just tell JC the truth is Tywin just couldn't find Aegon....

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For me it's really simple, I generally like the Targaryens and I greatly dislike Jon, hence I don't want him to be one of them. Simple as that.

It feels too much like a Cinderall story, it's not surprising, and feels too traditional in an otherwise nontraditional story.

And yeah, it puts too much importance on Jon... and I hate Jon.

Ya but there's a huge difference in what you want to happen, and what GRRM will actually make happen, but I totally understand where you're coming from. You can hate R+L=J but still admit it's by far the most likely outcome in terms of Jon's true parentage.

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Ya but Varys says he made the switch and I don't really see why he wouldn't just tell JC that the truth is Tywin just couldn't find Aegon....

:agree: The baby switch story was wholly unnecessary to Varys' scheme.

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The idea that Tywin couldn't find Aegon so he had the Mountain murder a different child in such a way that the child was unrecognizable actually makes more sense than Varys' switching babies.

We saw Theon do the same thing with the miller's boys (or was one of them his?).

Well said! I haven't noticed. Martin likes to leave this kind of clues.

This reinforces the possibility of the story.

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Well said! I haven't noticed. Martin likes to leave this kind of clues.

This reinforces the possibility of the story.

Yes, except as Jon Icefyre pointed out, Varys decided to go with the "I switched the babies before Aegon could be murdered" story.

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Ya but Varys says he made the switch and I don't really see why he wouldn't just tell JC the truth is Tywin just couldn't find Aegon....

Why should Varys lie? Why does a bear shit in the woods? Har

He's such a good liar, and he puts some truth here and there, so that his story seems plausible.

He knows Aegon wasn't slain, and he tells about a baby swap, even though he hasn't the least idea of where Aegon is. I think he could have helped in finding the child to be put instead of Aegon.

He shares the secret with the Lannisters, and they know he's covering their fail in finding Aegon. Otoh, the Lannisters know Aegon is around, so Varys can raise a fake Aegon and pass him for real.

And he has to lie to JC. He was Rhaegar's friend and he wouldn't help willingly to bring about a fake R's son.

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Yes, except as Jon Icefyre pointed out, Varys decided to go with the "I switched the babies before Aegon could be murdered" story.

I don't remember whom he said that to. If he had an interest in appearing as Aegon's saviour, he'd lie without the lest flinch.

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Why should Varys lie? Why does a bear shit in the woods? Har

He's such a good liar, and he puts some truth here and there, so that his story seems plausible.

He knows Aegon wasn't slain, and he tells about a baby swap, even though he hasn't the least idea of where Aegon is. I think he could have helped in finding the child to be put instead of Aegon.

He shares the secret with the Lannisters, and they know he's covering their fail in finding Aegon. Otoh, the Lannisters know Aegon is around, so Varys can raise a fake Aegon and pass him for real.

And he has to lie to JC. He was Rhaegar's friend and he wouldn't help willingly to bring about a fake R's son.

I doubt any of those scenarios, there's only so many circumstances and secretes GRRM can write into the story. Again it might be the character's actions but it's GRRM writting it, and I highly doubt he's going to make the Aegon/YG's backstory that freakin complex with only two more books left in the series.....

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Thanks for the welcome :)

Some bastards are recognized by their father, like Edirc Storm. I think Ned's was a mere recognition, but he was not bloating. He had to say something about Jon's parents.

Brag was probably the wrong word, just used it in lack of another, more befitting one. What I meant was: Isn't it strange that he openly acknowledges Jon on the one hand, but on the other hand he practices total secrecy concerning jon's mother/origin?

And yes, if Ashara left KL after Brandon was killed, my thoughts about her learning of Brandons death from Ned are completely invalid.

Do you recall if it says so anywhere in the books? I can't remember and in the wiki it only says she left for unknown reasons.

"He [brandon] was born to be a King's Hand and a father to queens. I never asked for this cup to pass to me."

I've always thought this had something to do with Lord Rickard's Southron ambitions. The conversation Ned is having with Cat concerns his reluctance to accept Robert's offer of the Hand-ship and Joffrey and Sansa's betrothal. Ned would rather stay in Winterfell, but Cat is trying to convice him of the honors being offered and the dangers of declining those offers. When he raises Sansa's youth, she responds that she was twelve when she was promised to Brandon, which is what promopts the "bitter" (and out of character) comment. I agree that the "everything" possibly refers to some element of Brandon "taking what he wanted" where women were concerned. But there is also that comment about being Hand and a father to queens. It could certainly be just Ned reflecting on his own situation, but I think there's more to it than that, which makes me wonder if perhaps "everything" is much bigger than competition over girls. If Lord Rickard was somehow plotting to see Aerys deposed, he could well have had his sights on a very high honor for his eldest son. The prospect of wedding Brandon and Catelyn's children to Southron lords, perhaps even to one of the Targaryen princes may have been in the plans as well.

I deliberately left out that part of the quote since it didn't serve my purposes, you got me:D I never connected this part of the conversation in particular to the southron ambitions of Rickard. However, maybe not the "everything" but this whole comment by Eddard is to be put in the context of the southron ambitions. It's only logical that Eddard considers them to be responsible for Bran's and Rickon's (and maybe even Lyanna's) fate. Therefore the south and any meddling in political affaires holds a danger for Ned and that's why he doesn't want Sansa to get involved. I've always wondered why Ned (as closest friend to Robert and Lieutnant in the war) afterwards returns to Winterfell, taking no part

in politics whatsoever (again, aversion against southron ambitions?).

The aspect "father to queens" is extremely interesting, it seems obvious that most Lords would be honoured at the prospect of their daughter becoming queen, yet Ned

seems to reject it from the moment the proposition is made. Could the reason be that he sees the fate of the Starks trying to expand south looming once again and that's exactly what he wants to evade?

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Full consent. As enchanted as Selmy was by her, he'd never suspect her of being responsible for the dishonour.

Therein might also lay the reason for Ashara's suicide; her lover dead and a stillborn child by him, and his brother killed hers.

Also, when Catelyn mentions Brandon (in aGoT), "that brought a bitter twist to Ned's mouth. Brandon. Yes. Brandon would know what to do.

He always did. It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything (...). "

Could be very well that this line refers to Ashara offering herself to Brandon and Ned being left out.

Or are there any other significant duties Ned inherited? I can't think of any.

It's also strange that the thought of Brandon brought a bitter twist to Ned's mouth.

Given the horrible circumstances of Brandon's death, the only way to remember him

should be in mourning, respect and maybe a bit of pity...unless, of course, there is something

we don't know yet.

Really, it makes sense if you think back to the act that precipitates the war. Brandon riding into King's Landing and committing treason by demanding the Prince's death. That leads to Rickard and Brandon dying in King's Landing, and the demand for Ned'd and Robert's heads, then the rebellion. If there was no reason for Brandon to do the cranial-rectal-inversion-maneuver, because Lyanna was known to have participated, then one can say Brandon was the fulcrum that moved to the rebellion.
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Yes, Ned essentially inherited Brandons life, and if Brandon made promises to Ashara that he couldn't keep, then that might be a reason she might have looked to "Stark."

She wouldn't have known at Harrenhal she was pregnant, but if Brandon had promised to try and get out of the marriage with Cat, but couldn't, or lied about it, breaking her heart, she might be desperate and turn to the only person that could make Brandon do the right thing.

If Brandon plighted his troth with Ashara, that would indeed interfere with the marriage contract his father made with the Tullys even if he didn't have that right to make those promises.

Another honorable House has been slighted, and I don't think Rickards sense of stringent honor would allow him to overlook the Daynes.

Fixed that for you. (It just seems unreasonable to me that people turn that simple word around.) Now, why would Barristn be of equal or better help in that case, as he asserts that he could be. (He has also reaffirmed his oath of chastity.)
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Lol about why so many ppl doesn't like the R+L = J theory...the main complain I hear from other readers it's that "it's too cliche" "Jon can't be Azor Azhai, TPtwP, the song of ice and fire, Aragorn, Arthur, Goku, etc etc"

That got me thinking...lots of readers enjoy ASoIaF because it escapes from the traditional fantasy elements with it's somewhat real political and social settings, without either all good or all bad characters, etc.....woudn't it be a spectacular trolling from GRRM to have all that solved by a cliche character????.....fan troll success :rofl:

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Not many things are really supported in the books, and we have to use our imagination to guess Martin's notion. You're using your imagination as well. For instance, Aerys didn't care about his granson. Where did you take it from? Or Gregor actions. Why should he smash Aegon's head. On top of that, you're getting the information from renouned liars o people interested in lying. So, I'll use again my imagination and I'll try to find a storyline that is not denied by the known facts and explain better some behaviours. Of course, Martin has the last word.

After the Trident, Aerys was worried about war's outcome. So, he allowed Rhaella to flee (Ned said flee) to DS with Viserys.

He didn't allow Elia to escape, but took her as a hostage to make sure that Dorne wasn't joining the rebellion.

Elia begged him to let Aegon be taken at least, and proposed that her lady in waiting Ashara could take him to her holdfast in Starfall.

It is stated int he books that Elia and the children were held by Aerys.
After all, he was Aerys' grandson, and the notion of having his heirs scattered just in case it all went wrong, was good enough under the cirsumstances. Aerys obliged.

When the sack, Clegane went into Elia's rooms and he didn't find Aegon.

The account that we have is that Gregor siezed the baby and smashed its head against the wall before proceeding to rape and kill Elia.
Until the war was over, they could be good hostages to threaten the Targaryen loyals. They were less valuable dead, but he had to find Aegon. So, he tortured Elia and Rhaenys, without getting any answer but, the boy is not in KL. And here is the pinch of truth in Varys account: they went to Fleebottom, found a baby of size and features such as to pass by Aegon, they smashed his head so that he couldn't be recognized, and they presented Rhaegar's family to their new king Robert.

I see that it must have been Tyrion who masterminded the plot. We wouldn't recognized to have failed in finding Aegon. As for Varys, he probably helped him as much as he could. It was in his own interest.

And now, don't tell me that I've used my imagination. I have. Better tell me the flaws in my story, or where it fits worse with known facts that versions from liars, even though they're PoV,s, because we should think they where lying.

Are you really trying to rewrite the story because you dislike R + L = J so much? What is the basis for your hatred?
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Why should Varys lie? Why does a bear shit in the woods? Har

He's such a good liar, and he puts some truth here and there, so that his story seems plausible.

Can you give us a quote where Varys lies? (My view of Varys is that he can mislead, but he never lies.)
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