R + L = J v 50

[UVA]

He is definitely a badass, to that I will agree (and it must have been a blow for his ego, not being able to off one little girl), but I think that this - and his character, or rather the lack thereof - is the reason why he is labelled as dangerous. While Oberyn certainly had no scrupules killing someone, I don't think he revelled in killing. Darkstar has the strong vibes of Lynn Corbray (minus the boys), a cold-blooded killer who kills for the sake of killing, ruthless and of twisted mind.

I agree with you about the similarities between Darkstar and Corbray -- there's the sense that their grip on reality may be tenuous at times, that there's a screw is loose. The attempt on Myrcella's life seems to be a situation where Darkstart snapped because to the reader his motive wasn't clear.

Just jumping in on Arienne's thoughts on Darkstar in the 'gift chapter':

Could be but Arianne isn't really shy about sex, most Dornish women are cool with it. She has slept with a few people and manipulating Arys would be a bigger Sin than sleeping with Darkstar wouldn't it? Thanks for the chapter. The lesson she learned occurred right after the Darkstar incident when she was acting like a child but Prince Doran set her right and now she is working with him not against him. But who knows. Arianne getting around does not seem to bother her at all. How bad could the sex have been, did she tie him up and go all Ramsay on him?

Perhaps another component to Arianne's remorse in re. to Darkstar are the doubts that she has about the mission she's been tasked with by Doran: to treat with Aegon and Connington. She wants to prove herself worthy of father's crown and to redeem herself for the Myrcella debacle, but she, by her own admittance, has shown poor judgement when it comes to 'pretty boys', dragonlord-type pretty boys in particular. The girl needs to keep her head together going forward.

[Ygrain]

I agree with you about the similarities between Darkstar and Corbray -- there's the sense that their grip on reality may be tenuous at times, that there's a screw is loose. The attempt on Myrcella's life seems to be a situation where Darkstart snapped because to the reader his motive wasn't clear.

I think he definitely has issues for not being the Dayne and is terribly jealous of Arthur for achieving that, but I'm not so sure about impulsivity. Being a "true viper" sounds more likea vicious schemer than straightforward killer, as well as of total ruthlessness (as shown by not giving a fuck what consequences his action would have for Arianne). "Someone told" Doran, what if the someone was Darkstar himself? The war that would have ensued, had he succeeded, would have been wonderful times for a born killer.

[finger]

Well the good news is it's pretty clear that Ashara still has some part to play in the story so you may at least get some Ned Ashara flashback from Howland. And I think some stuff about Arthur and House Dayne. I myself am obsessed with house Dayne. Don't know why, 10,000 year old house, castle called Starfall, the sword of the morning, Dawn, Darkstar and Edric who seemed like good people, Wylla. Hell what's not to like? I could read a book on that house. Always wanted the Daynes and the Starks to be related somehow. Hope Ashara lives, that is just such a shit way to die. I want some house Dayne in book six. A Darkstar POV, would love to see inside that head.

:agree: I also think she faked her suicide. No one commits suicide in Westeros. The question is: why?

We are taken to think that Ned was about Starfall hidding a Targ by the time of her "suicide".

Did she flee tucking another Targ? If she did, who's child? Her own? Did Jon have a twin? Was she sneaking Aegon from KL?

Many clues to follow.

I said that it was Rhaegar's child, but people was offended for this insult to R. I don't know why: she was young, highborn, hot... they lived together. Ned only doubted that R frequented brothels. He wasn't sure, so R must have been sensible to women's beauty. I have no clues, I just think it very easy to happen. I'd say the easiest way for Ashara to give birth to a Targ. But she might not be the mother.

Anyway, it hasn't to do with R+L=J

[Jon Icefyre]

:agree: I also think she faked her suicide. No one commits suicide in Westeros. The question is: why?

We are taken to think that Ned was about Starfall hidding a Targ by the time of her "suicide".

Did she flee tucking another Targ? If she did, who's child? Her own? Did Jon have a twin? Was she sneaking Aegon from KL?

Many clues to follow.

I said that it was Rhaegar's child, but people was offended for this insult to R. I don't know why: she was young, highborn, hot... they lived together. Ned only doubted that R frequented brothels. He wasn't sure, so R must have been sensible to women's beauty. I have no clues, I just think it very easy to happen. I'd say the easiest way for Ashara to give birth to a Targ. But she might not be the mother.

Anyway, it hasn't to do with R+L=J

Oh god please don't start with that Rhaegar was the baby daddy of every other noble lady in Westeros theory again.....

[Maxpey]

:agree: I also think she faked her suicide. No one commits suicide in Westeros. The question is: why?

We are taken to think that Ned was about Starfall hidding a Targ by the time of her "suicide".

Did she flee tucking another Targ? If she did, who's child? Her own? Did Jon have a twin? Was she sneaking Aegon from KL?

Many clues to follow.

I said that it was Rhaegar's child, but people was offended for this insult to R. I don't know why: she was young, highborn, hot... they lived together. Ned only doubted that R frequented brothels. He wasn't sure, so R must have been sensible to women's beauty. I have no clues, I just think it very easy to happen. I'd say the easiest way for Ashara to give birth to a Targ. But she might not be the mother.

Anyway, it hasn't to do with R+L=J

I have said the same thing. I made a post about it in one of the Crazy Theories threads (I can't remember which volume).

If Rhaegar married Lyanna, why is it impossible to think that he would have also married Ashara?

[Maxpey]

Oh god please don't start with that Rhaegar was the baby daddy of every other noble lady in Westeros theory again.....

But it's so fun! :ack:

[Ygrain]

:agree: I also think she faked her suicide. No one commits suicide in Westeros. The question is: why?

We are taken to think that Ned was about Starfall hidding a Targ by the time of her "suicide".

Did she flee tucking another Targ? If she did, who's child? Her own? Did Jon have a twin? Was she sneaking Aegon from KL?

Many clues to follow.

I said that it was Rhaegar's child, but people was offended for this insult to R. I don't know why: she was young, highborn, hot... they lived together. Ned only doubted that R frequented brothels. He wasn't sure, so R must have been sensible to women's beauty. I have no clues, I just think it very easy to happen. I'd say the easiest way for Ashara to give birth to a Targ. But she might not be the mother.

Anyway, it hasn't to do with R+L=J

That's not what Ned thought. From what he knew of Rhaegar, he arrived at the conclusion that unlike Robert, Rhaegar was NOT the type who frequented brothels.

Plus, living with a hot chick under one roof doesn't mean that one must have fathered her child.

[Jon Icefyre]

That's not what Ned thought. From what he knew of Rhaegar, he arrived at the conclusion that unlike Robert, Rhaegar was NOT the type who frequented brothels.

Plus, living with a hot chick under one roof doesn't mean that one must have fathered her child.

:agree: Seriously, like we get that ppl really want some alt theories to work and Ashara might very well have a child out there somewhere, but Ned is most likely not the father of that child and Rhaegar is most definitely not the father! Brandon Stark is the most likely candidate for who the father would be IMO, followed by Aerys and then Ned with a slim chance, but Rhaegar is no where even close to a possibility........

[Snark_Tamer]

On the R+L theory: I thought I was BRILLIANT coming up with this clever theory near the end of my first read of the five: imagine how shocked I was on the second read spotting all the only-too-clear clues and then coming here and finding it is widely accepted.

Is there a thread discussing which characters have possibly sussed out R+L=J? Ned is Mr. Honor, so fathering a bastard must have made for some juicy gossip fodder...some smart Westerosi (that wouldn't automatically go kill Jon) could have figured it out, no?

Also, what is Ned's actual story about Jon's conception? He seems to put an abrupt end to any conversation about J's mama. He's never had to explain to anyone? In his lie (I believe R+L=J), when does he impregnate Wylla? Where?

Ned had left, probably purposefully, enough fodder for BOTH theories and doubts. I am rereading DwD and just passed the story Davos got in the Sisters about Ned Stark coming there at the beginning of Robert's Rebellion. Ned nearly wrecked his boat trying to get to White Harbor. "He left her with a bag of gold and a bastard in her belly"

Now is this Wylla? Sent for as a wetnurse in Dayne? Because I'd always had the impression Wylla was FROM Dayne? This would work though, if Ned met a woman in need of a story and an escape because she was pregnant (a wetnurse has to have a pregnancy after all, and we KNOW Wylla was a wetnurse)" perhaps he promised to claim the child and send for her" but to arrange this this early, he had to know he'd have the need in the form of Lyanna later. it's a complicated story. She SEEMS like she must be a second possible girl. Or MAYBE she was a girl hiding Lyanna?

I don't have any answers. I just hadn't seen this Sisters: girl mentioned and she seems relevant to the logistics and rumors. It looks to me like we may have THREE possible mothers if this were Ned's bastard (Ashara, Wylla, and the Sister's girl) plus the more likely R+L. Ned keeping up warring rumors perhaps ensured than none was proved true or false, thereby sending people after a different truth.

You know given his age he may have some insight into Jon and the Tower. Ned would of had to pass by High Hermatige on his way to Starfall. On the map it looks like it's similar to the Moon Gates, it's right on the Road to Starfall. Also would of gone past house Manwoody. Pretty sure someone notices Ned has a baby with him. Often wonder what House Martell and the rest of Dorne made of the events at the Tower considering it took place in Dorne. Wouldn't it be messed up if Darkstar passes by where the Tower of Joy used to be or hid in he ruins for a night. It would be a good way to get back to the Tower and get a Dornish perspective on the events.

Oh, great point! Passing through WITH a baby...

My thoughts on Arianne and Darkstar: no shape in the sex, per se, but shame that she allowed the sex to bring her guard down: make her trust him enough to include him in a plan like this.

[MtnLion]

Oh god please don't start with that Rhaegar was the baby daddy of every other noble lady in Westeros theory again.....

Yeah, we don't need that one.

[MtnLion]

Snark_Tamer, you don't find any improbabilities the tale related of the fisherman's daughter? Like how long before she knew she was pregnant? Ned is on his way to raise his banners, I would say a significant amount of time before his wedding to Catelyn, like maybe a month or more. That tale had pink salmon written all over it.

[Eurybia]

Regarding Darkstar- Ser C and Jon, I agree with you. We are told how "dangerous" he is repeatedly and I think GRRM does that for a reason. What if the true "danger" is his knowledge? I recently posted in another thread how curious it's always seemed to me that High Hermitage is right on the most reasonable route from ToJ to Starfall and here we have this mysterious, dangerous character who would have been a young child during the Rebellion. Who better to hide behind a rock and get an eye- or earful than an 8-10 year old? To add to that though, if they needed supplies or servants at the Tower and didn't want to go all the way to Starfall (or maybe wanted to avoid awkward questions there) where better to go than Ser Arthur's cousins at HH? Perhaps, when the need for a maester became pressing they may have "borrowed" HH's?

The only way we'll ever get this possible knowledge is if DS spills his guts to someone (Arianne?) which I find slightly less likely than a prologue/epilogue scenario. Actually hoping for the latter :devil:

A child who gets a eyeful of dangerous information while being somewhere he shouldn't... Sounds a bit like Bran. Though without being thrown from a tower of course.

Darkstar having some sort of important information, as well as being a ruthless killer, seems to me a more likely reason Doran would label him "the most dangerous man in Dorne". It could also point to Doran knowing Darkstar has the ability to mess up any of his plans, in ways possibly beyond maiming princesses- what if Darkstar does know something that could shake Doran's longstanding agreement with the "last" Targaryens?

[Ygrain]

Darkstar having some sort of important information, as well as being a ruthless killer, seems to me a more likely reason Doran would label him "the most dangerous man in Dorne". It could also point to Doran knowing Darkstar has the ability to mess up any of his plans, in ways possibly beyond maiming princesses- what if Darkstar does know something that could shake Doran's longstanding agreement with the "last" Targaryens?

I think there would be a less complicated explanation: Doran knows his daughter, and out of the many possible bad choices, Darkstar is the worst because he would take advantage of Arianne's naivity, to disastrous ends - oh, wait, he already did.

[Snark_Tamer]

Snark_Tamer, you don't find any improbabilities the tale related of the fisherman's daughter? Like how long before she knew she was pregnant? Ned is on his way to raise his banners, I would say a significant amount of time before his wedding to Catelyn, like maybe a month or more. That tale had pink salmon written all over it.

Oh, I think it's highly possible this is a fishy tale... but in order for the tale to have held for some 16 years she had to at one time have a pregnancy, NOT have a baby, have come up with some gold... I'm just saying it is in all probability, a puzzle piece. And a rumor Ned may have encouraged to throw more confusion on the Jon situation... In fact if I were a betting woman, maybe the gold was to encourage the rumor...

A child who gets a eyeful of dangerous information while being somewhere he shouldn't... Sounds a bit like Bran. Though without being thrown from a tower of course.

Darkstar having some sort of important information, as well as being a ruthless killer, seems to me a more likely reason Doran would label him "the most dangerous man in Dorne". It could also point to Doran knowing Darkstar has the ability to mess up any of his plans, in ways possibly beyond maiming princesses- what if Darkstar does know something that could shake Doran's longstanding agreement with the "last" Targaryens?

Oh, I love this parallel. (first paragraph, I mean)

[UVA]

Darkstar having some sort of important information, as well as being a ruthless killer, seems to me a more likely reason Doran would label him "the most dangerous man in Dorne". It could also point to Doran knowing Darkstar has the ability to mess up any of his plans, in ways possibly beyond maiming princesses- what if Darkstar does know something that could shake Doran's longstanding agreement with the "last" Targaryens?

I can't find the reference in the text but was it Darkstar or Doran who said that Darkstar possesses important info?

[JanAgro]

Lord Borrel never said that the fishermans daughters son was Jon Snow only that she named him Jon maybe there is a Jon Stone on the sisters who is Neds bastard ,after all GRRM has said that Ned named Jon Snow

[Ygrain]

Lord Borrel never said that the fishermans daughters son was Jon Snow only that she named him Jon maybe there is a Jon Stone on the sisters wo is Neds bastard after all GRRM has said that Ned named Jon Snow

You mean, there are two Jons around?

[JanAgro]

Maybe Lord Borrel never says anything about Ned coming back to the sisters to pick up this baby only that he left her pregnant. IRL John is a pretty common name

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Maybe Lord Borrel never says anything about Ned coming back to the sisters to pick up this baby only that he left her pregnant. IRL John is a pretty common name

That is true, and IMO significant, but he also never said that Ned was the father either- only that he "left her" with a bastard in her belly, which could have been there before she ever met Ned Stark.

As for the gold- only natural to pay well for a dangerous passage in which her father was killed, no?

[JanAgro]

he also never said that Ned was the father either- only that he "left her" with a bastard in her belly, which could have been there before she ever met Ned Stark.

As for the gold- only natural to pay well for a dangerous passage in which her father was killed, no?

Thats getting a bit too semantic even for me . I agree that the gold would be a good reward for the journey and loosing her father though after all ned isnt the type of guy to pay for sex and hes hardly going to know shes pregnant the morning after