R + L = J v 50

[finger]

Aerys thought once the wildfire he ordered the pyros to set in place incinerated KL, that he would not die in the flames like everyone else but would rise as a literal dragon to destroy all his enemies, there's one other Targ I recall that seemed to have that same sort of mindset aka Arieon Brightflame.....Ya I'd say Aerys was full on looney tunes mad lol.

Well, he might be a tad insane, but not f**king mad, lol.

You've just given another detail. Would he try Aegon with fire? I'm not sure dragonspawns are fire inmune since they hatch, har.

[finger]

Recap. No baby swap in KL. I think there's another storyline that trumps it.

Aerys wouldn't allow Elia to leave KL, but he would willingly allow Aegon to be taken to Starfall by Ashara.

When Gregor Clegane arrived, there was no clue of Aegon, so he put another baby's corpse in his stead.

Everybody, specially Ned or Robert for what we care, thought the corpses had been Elis, Rhaenys and Aegon. (Tywin might know the truth; who cares?)

[finger]

Still more. I've read hear about Darkstar. I propose an easy exercise.

1. Take a map of Westeros.

2. Locate Starfall

3. Locate the Tower of Joy

3. Trace an imaginary road linking ToJ to Starfall

4. Follow this road setting out from SF

What's the first we find? Bingo! High Hermitage!

So you said Drakstar kept secrets with him. Why should he try to kill a Baratheon-Lannister, or whatever?

I wonder.

[Alia of the knife]

I'm not fond of baby swaping, but a plausible theory deserves to be explored. I guess if Alia can stand some resusciting deads, I can stand some little babies parallels.

We have a story in full. Val and Jon take care of Dalla's son when the camp is assaulted. Mance' son is in danger for having "king's" blood. Stannis could have him dead. Gilly leaves her son with Val and flees with Mance's to Braavos, and further. Val grows ever more maternal to "monster"

We can imagine another story. Ashara had a daughter (by whom?). When Elia wasn't allowed to leave KL, A was allowed to visit her. Varys provided her with a baby, that she swept with Aegon, and then took Aegon to Starfall. When they knew from Ned that Aegon was in danger, because Robert could have him dead, Ashara left her daughter to his brother, who accepted her as his own daughter, and she fled with Aegon to the Free Cities and further. She must be hiding Aegon as Ned hid Jon, and we expect her to show up and tell us the rest of the story.

I don't think she's Quaith, or they're with Howland eating frogs, but I wouldn't swear it.

I'm looking forward to your violent rejections :lol:

:(

[JanAgro]

So you said Drakstar kept secrets with him. Why should he try to kill a Baratheon-Lannister, or whatever?

I wonder.

Darkstar is pissed about the fact that his idol Arthur Dayne was killed , plus his nominal lord Edric Dayne is missing in the riverlands (Maybe Edrics parents died in RR too ,ED doesnt mention them) He wants revenge on the rest of the kingdom.Thats why he is helping Arianne in the first place Crownng Mycalla will start a war when that plan fails he attaacks her

[MtnLion]

Recap. No baby swap in KL. I think there's another storyline that trumps it.

Aerys wouldn't allow Elia to leave KL, but he would willingly allow Aegon to be taken to Starfall by Ashara.

When Gregor Clegane arrived, there was no clue of Aegon, so he put another baby's corpse in his stead.

Everybody, specially Ned or Robert for what we care, thought the corpses had been Elis, Rhaenys and Aegon. (Tywin might know the truth; who cares?)

This is all imaginary, and not supported at all in the books. Aerys was mad, and would he care about Aegon? No, he cares about his son, Viserys, and sends him to Dragonstone, and if Aegon dies his son inherits. The one that he raised since he was captured at Duskendale and began his madness. Aerys does believe that if he sets King's Landing afire that he will rise up as a dragon to burn his enemies, so he isn't concerned with who will inherit, as he thinks he will retain the crown, himself. He had no special link to Ashara that we know of. Gregor is not really bright enough to plan, or even think to cover up that Aegon was unfound. Gregor went to the nursery and found Aegon, smashed his head on the wall, and then took Elia and raped her.

[MtnLion]

Hey, it wasn't my notion. I don't remember where the clause is presented, but as you tell it, it's far too disguised. Some people cheering a cloth drangon on poles is much sthe same as the same people cheering a banner with a dragon depicted on it.

What's the difference? People cheering a banner mean supporters, while people cheering a cloth dragon mean a mummer's farce. If any.

Seriously, what other POV uses the words "mummer's dragon"? Why would there be any definition other than Daenerys' definition, if no one else has that term in their POV? Daenerys defines exactly what she means, which is a fake dragon on poles, with people gathered around cheering it. It is not a dragon banner, it is a fake dragon that in a play would be attacked by the heroes of the play.

[The guy from the Vale]

Seriously, what other POV uses the words "mummer's dragon"? Why would there be any definition other than Daenerys' definition, if no one else has that term in their POV? Daenerys defines exactly what she means, which is a fake dragon on poles, with people gathered around cheering it. It is not a dragon banner, it is a fake dragon that in a play would be attacked by the heroes of the play.

Which changes nothing about the fact that by Dany's definition, a mummer's dragon is a fake stand-in for the real thing.

ETA: :bang: Note to self: first comprehend post, then post yourself. Particularly if it's past midnight.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Seriously, what other POV uses the words "mummer's dragon"? Why would there be any definition other than Daenerys' definition, if no one else has that term in their POV? Daenerys defines exactly what she means, which is a fake dragon on poles, with people gathered around cheering it. It is not a dragon banner, it is a fake dragon that in a play would be attacked by the heroes of the play.

Very much like Tanselle's dragon in The Hedge Knight. Thoughts on that?

[the_one_who_was_promised]

Enjoying this thread - really cool to see everyone's thoughts and theories as to Jon Snow's parentage, as well as the other surrounding strands of the story, such as Ashara Dayne's suicide, and Young Griff's questionable legitimacy as a Targeryan heir (which I personally do not buy at present).

I absolutely hold to R+L=J. While posting on another thread earlier on, it struck me that there may be another vital clue as to the legitimacy of this theory. While it has probably already been mentioned here before now, does anyone else think that Ned's thoughts of Jon, while imprisoned in KL in AGOT are significant? Ned seems to long to speak with Jon one more time but in a face to face encounter with Varys, he is warned that all his correspondences will be opened. Hence, we know that Ned does not write to Jon at Castle Black despite the insinuation that he longs to make contact with him when he becomes aware that it is increasingly unlikely that they will ever meet again.

Hence, what can be so important or even threatening that would prevent Ned from writing to Jon to possibly tell him of his parentage at the eleventh hour, if his mother is merely a fisherman's daughter (Wylla) or even Ashara Dayne (a woman who is believed to have committed suicide, and is suspected of being Jon's mother by Cersei Lannister)? Surely, such a letter will not put Jon or any of the other remaining Starks at further risk of harm? I can only conclude in this instance that Jon's parents have to be of great significance - and given the Lannisters' tentative grip on the throne and the danger they pose to the Starks at that point in the story, it would make sense that Ned would forsake the opportunity to lay his mind at rest by revealing Jon's parentage, especially if it could put him and the remainder of his family in further peril.

[Jon Icefyre]

I absolutely hold to R+L=J. While posting on another thread earlier on, it struck me that there may be another vital clue as to the legitimacy of this theory. While it has probably already been mentioned here before now, does anyone else think that Ned's thoughts of Jon, while imprisoned in KL in AGOT are significant? Ned seems to long to speak with Jon one more time but in a face to face encounter with Varys, he is warned that all his correspondences will be opened. Hence, we know that Ned does not write to Jon at Castle Black despite the insinuation that he longs to make contact with him when he becomes aware that it is increasingly unlikely that they will ever meet again.

Hence, what can be so important or even threatening that would prevent Ned from writing to Jon to possibly tell him of his parentage at the eleventh hour, if his mother is merely a fisherman's daughter (Wylla) or even Ashara Dayne (a woman who is believed to have committed suicide, and is suspected of being Jon's mother by Cersei Lannister)? Surely, such a letter will not put Jon or any of the other remaining Starks at further risk of harm? I can only conclude in this instance that Jon's parents have to be of great significance - and given the Lannisters' tentative grip on the throne and the danger they pose to the Starks at that point in the story, it would make sense that Ned would forsake the opportunity to lay his mind at rest by revealing Jon's parentage, especially if it could put him and the remainder of his family in further peril.

This is a very good point indeed, well said! :thumbsup:

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Enjoying this thread - really cool to see everyone's thoughts and theories as to Jon Snow's parentage, as well as the other surrounding strands of the story, such as Ashara Dayne's suicide, and Young Griff's questionable legitimacy as a Targeryan heir (which I personally do not buy at present).

I absolutely hold to R+L=J. While posting on another thread earlier on, it struck me that there may be another vital clue as to the legitimacy of this theory. While it has probably already been mentioned here before now, does anyone else think that Ned's thoughts of Jon, while imprisoned in KL in AGOT are significant? Ned seems to long to speak with Jon one more time but in a face to face encounter with Varys, he is warned that all his correspondences will be opened. Hence, we know that Ned does not write to Jon at Castle Black despite the insinuation that he longs to make contact with him when he becomes aware that it is increasingly unlikely that they will ever meet again.

Hence, what can be so important or even threatening that would prevent Ned from writing to Jon to possibly tell him of his parentage at the eleventh hour, if his mother is merely a fisherman's daughter (Wylla) or even Ashara Dayne (a woman who is believed to have committed suicide, and is suspected of being Jon's mother by Cersei Lannister)? Surely, such a letter will not put Jon or any of the other remaining Starks at further risk of harm? I can only conclude in this instance that Jon's parents have to be of great significance - and given the Lannisters' tentative grip on the throne and the danger they pose to the Starks at that point in the story, it would make sense that Ned would forsake the opportunity to lay his mind at rest by revealing Jon's parentage, especially if it could put him and the remainder of his family in further peril.

An excellent point! Clearly the secret is so important that it was worth taking it to his grave rather than risking the "wrong" people finding out.

[KingAlanI]

http://www.cracked.com/photoplasty_592_25-mind-blowing-fan-theories-about-movies-tv-shows/

R+L=J mentioned in a Cracked article.

The item mentions Rhaegar as Lyanna's rapist.

The comments section points out that characterization was Robert's biased opinon, and otherwise discusses the theory. No new information for us, really, but good to see the theory getting popular press.

[Alia of the knife]

Still more. I've read hear about Darkstar. I propose an easy exercise.

1. Take a map of Westeros.

2. Locate Starfall

3. Locate the Tower of Joy

3. Trace an imaginary road linking ToJ to Starfall

4. Follow this road setting out from SF

What's the first we find? Bingo! High Hermitage!

So you said Drakstar kept secrets with him. Why should he try to kill a Baratheon-Lannister, or whatever?

I wonder.

Darkstar would have been around the same age as Viserys at the time of the Rebellion, so his memory is better than that of a small child, and he also said specifically he wanted justice for Elia.

He may have said that to appeal directly to the Martells and to get in good enough with them to marry Arianne, or there is another reason he mentions justice for Elia, as opposed to say justice for Ser Arthur, his own kinsman.

There is a reason too that Oberyn hated him and thought him a poison.

Arianne also stated that Darkstar was highborn enough to marry her, though her Father would have thought her mad. While the Daynes are a good and ancient family, I didn't realize they were highborn enough for a Princess of Dorne to marry.

On the matter of Aerys, I am beginning to rethink him as well, but in the sense that while he may have been paranoid, and mad, he wasn't necessarily wrong, though I don't think it was wrong either to want to remove him.

[Alia of the knife]

http://www.cracked.c...ovies-tv-shows/

R+L=J mentioned in a Cracked article.

The item mentions Rhaegar as Lyanna's rapist.

The comments section points out that characterization was Robert's biased opinon, and otherwise discusses the theory. No new information for us, really, but good to see the theory getting popular press.

I always knew that Gilligan was Satan. :laugh:

Cracked.com is my Husbands guilty pleasure.

[Jon Icefyre]

Arianne also stated that Darkstar was highborn enough to marry her, though her Father would have thought her mad. While the Daynes are a good and ancient family, I didn't realize they were highborn enough for a Princess of Dorne to marry.

Well yes and no, if we're talking exclusively about the Daynes of Starfall then yes those Daynes are certainly highborn enough for a Dornish princess to take as her consort, when you consider the fact that there were three different Targ kings that chose brides from house Velaryon for their princes one of which became the second wife of king Aegon lll and I don't think house Velaryon is considered to be any more highborn than house Dayne of Starfall. But then again OTOH, Ser Gerold is not a Dayne of Starfall he's a Dayne of High Hermitage which is a cadet branch of house Dayne of Starfall(main house) and cadet branches in most cases are not seen as highborn as the main house, but being a Dayne in general certainly counts for something, especially in Dorne.

[KingAlanI]

I always knew that Gilligan was Satan. :laugh:

Cracked.com is my Husbands guilty pleasure.

Cracked is one of my favorite Internet timewasters as well. :P

When I see Cracked articles relevant to discussions/interests elsewhere, I love to mention the link.

[Alia of the knife]

Well yes and no, if we're talking exclusively about the Daynes of Starfall then yes those Daynes are certainly highborn enough for a Dornish princess to take as her consort, when you consider the fact that there were three different Targ kings that chose brides from house Velaryon for their princes one of which became the second wife of king Aegon lll and I don't think house Velaryon is considered to be any more highborn than house Dayne of Starfall. But then again OTOH, Ser Gerold is not a Dayne of Starfall he's a Dayne of High Hermitage which is a cadet branch of house Dayne of Starfall(main house) and cadet branches in most cases are not seen as highborn as the main house, but being a Dayne in general certainly counts for something, especially in Dorne.

Kind of like a Karstark then?

And I've heard two different versions of High Hermitage:

1. It is the name of the Cadet Branch of Starfall, or Dayne family of Starfall as you mentioned and which I assumed when I first read it.

2. It is literally a hermitage, or an "organization " of Knights, almost like a Fraternity or Barracks, and not really a House.

And yes, I would have thought that a Dayne of Starfall would definitely outrank a Dayne of High Hermitage.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Kind of like a Karstark then?

And I've heard two different versions of High Hermitage:

1. It is the name of the Cadet Branch of Starfall, or Dayne family of Starfall as you mentioned and which I assumed when I first read it.

2. It is literally a hermitage, or an "organization " of Knights, almost like a Fraternity or Barracks, and not really a House.

And yes, I would have thought that a Dayne of Starfall would definitely outrank a Dayne of High Hermitage.

Something that strikes me as very interesting is that when Arianne introduces Ser Gerold to Myrcella in Feast, it is with this flourish

Last, but first in valor, I give you Ser Gerold Dayne, a knight of Starfall

(italics mine)

Is she just trying to make him seem more impressive or is there perhaps less of a difference between the branches than we have been led to believe?

[Barbossa]

Enjoying this thread - really cool to see everyone's thoughts and theories as to Jon Snow's parentage, as well as the other surrounding strands of the story, such as Ashara Dayne's suicide, and Young Griff's questionable legitimacy as a Targeryan heir (which I personally do not buy at present).

I absolutely hold to R+L=J. While posting on another thread earlier on, it struck me that there may be another vital clue as to the legitimacy of this theory. While it has probably already been mentioned here before now, does anyone else think that Ned's thoughts of Jon, while imprisoned in KL in AGOT are significant? Ned seems to long to speak with Jon one more time but in a face to face encounter with Varys, he is warned that all his correspondences will be opened. Hence, we know that Ned does not write to Jon at Castle Black despite the insinuation that he longs to make contact with him when he becomes aware that it is increasingly unlikely that they will ever meet again.

Hence, what can be so important or even threatening that would prevent Ned from writing to Jon to possibly tell him of his parentage at the eleventh hour, if his mother is merely a fisherman's daughter (Wylla) or even Ashara Dayne (a woman who is believed to have committed suicide, and is suspected of being Jon's mother by Cersei Lannister)? Surely, such a letter will not put Jon or any of the other remaining Starks at further risk of harm? I can only conclude in this instance that Jon's parents have to be of great significance - and given the Lannisters' tentative grip on the throne and the danger they pose to the Starks at that point in the story, it would make sense that Ned would forsake the opportunity to lay his mind at rest by revealing Jon's parentage, especially if it could put him and the remainder of his family in further peril.

How did i never think of this, brilliant find.For me now its 100 % sure that r+l=J.There has been no indication whatsoever that his birthmother is another high born lady.