R + L = J v 50

[Jory Cassel]

Hello, I’m new here, but I’ve been reading for some time now. I came upon the l+r=j theory on my re-read of GoT, especially when Catelyn mentions that Ned only had frightened her once, when she asked about Jon’s mother; so at this point I came across the theory when researching about jon snow’s mother.

Although I don’t have to add much to the theory, I think that the importance of the scene I mentioned is underestimated; whereas it is often pointed out that Ned refers to Jon as his blood, the rest is imo neglected. (I excuse upfront for redundancy, but I’ll include (more or less) known facts to make my argumentation more coherent.

Firstly, some known facts about Ned, he is a stern, honest and honorable man with a very strict moral code, so It’s extremely unlikely that he’d father a bastard in the first place (although it is common for lords to father bastards during war, it is considered strange for Eddard one or two times, once by Tyrion I think (?) but I’m not sure, going to validate). If this had occurred nonetheless, the reaction to take him home could have been expected from Eddard.

But now comes the odd part: on page 65 of Got Catelyn is in thoughts: “Ned brought his Bastard home with him and called him son for all the north to see”

It is clear that Eddard wouldn’t hide a bastard, but he wouldn’t “brag” about him either. So does he declare his son so openly while at the same time being extremely secretive about his mother? When Catelyn asks him about her, it is “the only time (…) that Ned had ever frightened her. “Never ask me about Jon” he said, cold as ice. “He is my blood, and that is all you need to know”.

In my opinion, the rather obvious reaction of someone with such strict moral rules who had forsaken his marital vows would be apologizing and sincere regret. Now it’s rather unlikely that Wylla is Jon’s mother, if it was true, there wouldn’t be any reason I can think of why he wouldn’t tell Catelyn that it was her, she’d probably take it easily, as she would not be jealous of some lowborn wench/wetnurse (compared to Ashara and the rumours of her beauty). Eventually, it would’ve been a convenient lie, and it would’ve shut off most speculation as a consequence, too.

The conclusion that can be drawn is: Ned despises lying and avoids it whenever possible, and therefore (although not with certainty) Wylla probably is not Jon’s mother.

Now to the interesting part: Why is Eddard so eager to shut up the rumor about Ashara being Jon’s mother? I can only think of two reasons for that (correct me please, if there are more):

1. Ashara is not Jon’s mother and Eddard hates to see lies spreading, possibly also in the context of Eddard not being Jon’s father but posing as him and therefore being dishonored (also he thinks that Catelyn might feel diminished when comparing herself to Ashara, who Eddard apparently chose over her).

2. Ashara is Jon’s mother, but for some reason (grief? regret?) he wants the rumours to stop to not be reminded of her. Unlikely, as he scarcely violates his moral code and if he does, he admits it and stands by his mistakes.

I think possibility 1 is very likely, but there might be another reason why he cares to end the rumors although they seem convenient (as protection if L+R=J is the case). This did not seem to fit into any of the theories, until I remembered the description of the tourney at Harrenhal. Ned danced with Ashara after his brother Brandon talked to her. As it is said earlier, Ned is silent and shy, not to open, that suggests that he had romantic interest in Ashara but he did not dare to approach her, so Brandon asked her for him. Very inconclusive that this Ned would be the one to dishonor Ashara at that same tourney, this would suggest that there was a completely different, savage side of Ned that no one knows of (not impossible, but inconclusive). Especially when one considers how Ned is described smaller, less comely and far more calm/shy/silent than his older brother. Furthermore, it is said that Ned took no joy in his bedding but marched to it like a soldier out of duty (I can’t remember the exact quote) – implausible that a character like that has a passionate affair with a dornishwoman.

At this point, it is plausible that it was Brandon who dishonored Ashara, maybe even pointed to her by Ned and therefore earning Ned’s scorn (at one point Ned thinks: “everything was always for Brandon” and I thought there was an angry tone to it).

This would make for a perfect explanation; Ned wants to shut up the rumors since he can’t bear being blamed for something that didn’t happen yet he wishes it might have. (there is of course also the possibility that he was rejected/she chose his brother).

Counting in that Ashara is now dead, this explanation seems perfectly plausible to me (although the part about Brandon and Ashara is yet a bit vague).

In this scene, there is another clue, although vague yet not to be overlooked. When Luwin tells Ned that Jon wants to take the Black, he is opposed at first, but after thinking it over, he agrees. Only because of the lack of alternatives? Hardly. As he says, even a Bastard can raise high in the Night’s Watch. It is an obvious choice for a Bastard and no one, neither Robert Baratheon nor anyone else would suspect a Targaryen and potential heir to the Iron Throne to join the Night’s Watch. When Ned thinks about it, he considers it safest for Jon, although he can’t watch him anymore (maybe part of the promise to Lyanna to raise him as his own child– this might be a long shot, but this could be the reason why he says “If he (…) was a man grown, (…) but a boy of fourteen..) ).Ned also gives Catelyn an “anguished look” when she tells him that Jon cannot stay – in this moment he is not sympathetic as often but angry, because Catelyn resents Jon because of false jealousy and he again can’t tell the truth to clear things up (because of the promise to Lyanna).

Additionally, Catelyn’s observation on page 66 might be astute (“Whoever Jon’s Mother might have been, Ned must have loved her fiercely “) – she knows her husband well, and if Lyanna is Jon’s mother, this is entirely true, although not even remotely in the sense she suspects.

oh, it seems my text became quite a bit longer than I expected^^

[Ygrain]

Hello, I’m new here, but I’ve been reading for some time now. I came upon the l+r=j theory on my re-read of GoT, especially when Catelyn mentions that Ned only had frightened her once, when she asked about Jon’s mother; so at this point I came across the theory when researching about jon snow’s mother.

Although I don’t have to add much to the theory, I think that the importance of the scene I mentioned is underestimated; whereas it is often pointed out that Ned refers to Jon as his blood, the rest is imo neglected. (I excuse upfront for redundancy, but I’ll include (more or less) known facts to make my argumentation more coherent.

Firstly, some known facts about Ned, he is a stern, honest and honorable man with a very strict moral code, so It’s extremely unlikely that he’d father a bastard in the first place (although it is common for lords to father bastards during war, it is considered strange for Eddard one or two times, once by Tyrion I think (?) but I’m not sure, going to validate). If this had occurred nonetheless, the reaction to take him home could have been expected from Eddard.

But now comes the odd part: on page 65 of Got Catelyn is in thoughts: “Ned brought his Bastard home with him and called him son for all the north to see”

It is clear that Eddard wouldn’t hide a bastard, but he wouldn’t “brag” about him either. So does he declare his son so openly while at the same time being extremely secretive about his mother? When Catelyn asks him about her, it is “the only time (…) that Ned had ever frightened her. “Never ask me about Jon” he said, cold as ice. “He is my blood, and that is all you need to know”.

In my opinion, the rather obvious reaction of someone with such strict moral rules who had forsaken his marital vows would be apologizing and sincere regret. Now it’s rather unlikely that Wylla is Jon’s mother, if it was true, there wouldn’t be any reason I can think of why he wouldn’t tell Catelyn that it was her, she’d probably take it easily, as she would not be jealous of some lowborn wench/wetnurse (compared to Ashara and the rumours of her beauty). Eventually, it would’ve been a convenient lie, and it would’ve shut off most speculation as a consequence, too.

The conclusion that can be drawn is: Ned despises lying and avoids it whenever possible, and therefore (although not with certainty) Wylla probably is not Jon’s mother.

Now to the interesting part: Why is Eddard so eager to shut up the rumor about Ashara being Jon’s mother? I can only think of two reasons for that (correct me please, if there are more):

1. Ashara is not Jon’s mother and Eddard hates to see lies spreading, possibly also in the context of Eddard not being Jon’s father but posing as him and therefore being dishonored (also he thinks that Catelyn might feel diminished when comparing herself to Ashara, who Eddard apparently chose over her).

2. Ashara is Jon’s mother, but for some reason (grief? regret?) he wants the rumours to stop to not be reminded of her. Unlikely, as he scarcely violates his moral code and if he does, he admits it and stands by his mistakes.

I think possibility 1 is very likely, but there might be another reason why he cares to end the rumors although they seem convenient (as protection if L+R=J is the case). This did not seem to fit into any of the theories, until I remembered the description of the tourney at Harrenhal. Ned danced with Ashara after his brother Brandon talked to her. As it is said earlier, Ned is silent and shy, not to open, that suggests that he had romantic interest in Ashara but he did not dare to approach her, so Brandon asked her for him. Very inconclusive that this Ned would be the one to dishonor Ashara at that same tourney, this would suggest that there was a completely different, savage side of Ned that no one knows of (not impossible, but inconclusive). Especially when one considers how Ned is described smaller, less comely and far more calm/shy/silent than his older brother. Furthermore, it is said that Ned took no joy in his bedding but marched to it like a soldier out of duty (I can’t remember the exact quote) – implausible that a character like that has a passionate affair with a dornishwoman.

At this point, it is plausible that it was Brandon who dishonored Ashara, maybe even pointed to her by Ned and therefore earning Ned’s scorn (at one point Ned thinks: “everything was always for Brandon” and I thought there was an angry tone to it).

This would make for a perfect explanation; Ned wants to shut up the rumors since he can’t bear being blamed for something that didn’t happen yet he wishes it might have. (there is of course also the possibility that he was rejected/she chose his brother).

Counting in that Ashara is now dead, this explanation seems perfectly plausible to me (although the part about Brandon and Ashara is yet a bit vague).

In this scene, there is another clue, although vague yet not to be overlooked. When Luwin tells Ned that Jon wants to take the Black, he is opposed at first, but after thinking it over, he agrees. Only because of the lack of alternatives? Hardly. As he says, even a Bastard can raise high in the Night’s Watch. It is an obvious choice for a Bastard and no one, neither Robert Baratheon nor anyone else would suspect a Targaryen and potential heir to the Iron Throne to join the Night’s Watch. When Ned thinks about it, he considers it safest for Jon, although he can’t watch him anymore (maybe part of the promise to Lyanna to raise him as his own child– this might be a long shot, but this could be the reason why he says “If he (…) was a man grown, (…) but a boy of fourteen..) ).Ned also gives Catelyn an “anguished look” when she tells him that Jon cannot stay – in this moment he is not sympathetic as often but angry, because Catelyn resents Jon because of false jealousy and he again can’t tell the truth to clear things up (because of the promise to Lyanna).

Additionally, Catelyn’s observation on page 66 might be astute (“Whoever Jon’s Mother might have been, Ned must have loved her fiercely “) – she knows her husband well, and if Lyanna is Jon’s mother, this is entirely true, although not even remotely in the sense she suspects.

oh, it seems my text became quite a bit longer than I expected^^

Long but full of spot-ons :-)

And I absolutely agree with your analysis of Ned's behaviour, as it was basically one of the clues that set me on the track of R+L: not only would it be totally out of character for Ned to besmirch his honour so, but the way he goes about it is out of character, as well. I was puzzled by the inconsistency, until I realized that it is the behaviour of an honourable man who doesn't want to lie but cannot tell the truth. Why does Ned name Wylla to Robert but no-one else? Because Robert is the only one outranking him and thus being able to demand an answer; Ned is not obliged to answer to anyone else, therefore he keeps silent, not to lie unnecessarily. But why does Ned lie in the first place? When do we ever see him lie? Only to protect his family but never himself. So who is Ned protecting by lying about Jon's mother? And why "my blood" and not "my son"? .... Dong-dong.

It never ceases to amaze me how many readers ignore not only the factual clues but this masterful writing of Ned's character which provides all the necessary information by itself.

[KingAlanI]

Furthermore, it is said that Ned took no joy in his bedding but marched to it like a soldier out of duty (I can’t remember the exact quote)

Good post overall, but I think that line was talking about Stannis and Selyse.

[Jory Cassel]

Good post overall, but I think that line was talking about Stannis and Selyse.

You're right, my mistake, this fit the description of the "quiet wolf" well so I did not double-check.

@Ygrain: I fully agree, and untli now I didn't even realize why Ned answered to Robert yet to no one else ( My guess was out of

friendship or not to attract attention, but the fact that Robert outranks him makes much more sense)

[the_one_who_was_promised]

Hello, I’m new here, but I’ve been reading for some time now. I came upon the l+r=j theory on my re-read of GoT, especially when Catelyn mentions that Ned only had frightened her once, when she asked about Jon’s mother; so at this point I came across the theory when researching about jon snow’s mother.

Although I don’t have to add much to the theory, I think that the importance of the scene I mentioned is underestimated; whereas it is often pointed out that Ned refers to Jon as his blood, the rest is imo neglected. (I excuse upfront for redundancy, but I’ll include (more or less) known facts to make my argumentation more coherent.

Firstly, some known facts about Ned, he is a stern, honest and honorable man with a very strict moral code, so It’s extremely unlikely that he’d father a bastard in the first place (although it is common for lords to father bastards during war, it is considered strange for Eddard one or two times, once by Tyrion I think (?) but I’m not sure, going to validate). If this had occurred nonetheless, the reaction to take him home could have been expected from Eddard.

But now comes the odd part: on page 65 of Got Catelyn is in thoughts: “Ned brought his Bastard home with him and called him son for all the north to see”

It is clear that Eddard wouldn’t hide a bastard, but he wouldn’t “brag” about him either. So does he declare his son so openly while at the same time being extremely secretive about his mother? When Catelyn asks him about her, it is “the only time (…) that Ned had ever frightened her. “Never ask me about Jon” he said, cold as ice. “He is my blood, and that is all you need to know”.

In my opinion, the rather obvious reaction of someone with such strict moral rules who had forsaken his marital vows would be apologizing and sincere regret. Now it’s rather unlikely that Wylla is Jon’s mother, if it was true, there wouldn’t be any reason I can think of why he wouldn’t tell Catelyn that it was her, she’d probably take it easily, as she would not be jealous of some lowborn wench/wetnurse (compared to Ashara and the rumours of her beauty). Eventually, it would’ve been a convenient lie, and it would’ve shut off most speculation as a consequence, too.

The conclusion that can be drawn is: Ned despises lying and avoids it whenever possible, and therefore (although not with certainty) Wylla probably is not Jon’s mother.

Now to the interesting part: Why is Eddard so eager to shut up the rumor about Ashara being Jon’s mother? I can only think of two reasons for that (correct me please, if there are more):

1. Ashara is not Jon’s mother and Eddard hates to see lies spreading, possibly also in the context of Eddard not being Jon’s father but posing as him and therefore being dishonored (also he thinks that Catelyn might feel diminished when comparing herself to Ashara, who Eddard apparently chose over her).

2. Ashara is Jon’s mother, but for some reason (grief? regret?) he wants the rumours to stop to not be reminded of her. Unlikely, as he scarcely violates his moral code and if he does, he admits it and stands by his mistakes.

I think possibility 1 is very likely, but there might be another reason why he cares to end the rumors although they seem convenient (as protection if L+R=J is the case). This did not seem to fit into any of the theories, until I remembered the description of the tourney at Harrenhal. Ned danced with Ashara after his brother Brandon talked to her. As it is said earlier, Ned is silent and shy, not to open, that suggests that he had romantic interest in Ashara but he did not dare to approach her, so Brandon asked her for him. Very inconclusive that this Ned would be the one to dishonor Ashara at that same tourney, this would suggest that there was a completely different, savage side of Ned that no one knows of (not impossible, but inconclusive). Especially when one considers how Ned is described smaller, less comely and far more calm/shy/silent than his older brother. Furthermore, it is said that Ned took no joy in his bedding but marched to it like a soldier out of duty (I can’t remember the exact quote) – implausible that a character like that has a passionate affair with a dornishwoman.

At this point, it is plausible that it was Brandon who dishonored Ashara, maybe even pointed to her by Ned and therefore earning Ned’s scorn (at one point Ned thinks: “everything was always for Brandon” and I thought there was an angry tone to it).

This would make for a perfect explanation; Ned wants to shut up the rumors since he can’t bear being blamed for something that didn’t happen yet he wishes it might have. (there is of course also the possibility that he was rejected/she chose his brother).

Counting in that Ashara is now dead, this explanation seems perfectly plausible to me (although the part about Brandon and Ashara is yet a bit vague).

In this scene, there is another clue, although vague yet not to be overlooked. When Luwin tells Ned that Jon wants to take the Black, he is opposed at first, but after thinking it over, he agrees. Only because of the lack of alternatives? Hardly. As he says, even a Bastard can raise high in the Night’s Watch. It is an obvious choice for a Bastard and no one, neither Robert Baratheon nor anyone else would suspect a Targaryen and potential heir to the Iron Throne to join the Night’s Watch. When Ned thinks about it, he considers it safest for Jon, although he can’t watch him anymore (maybe part of the promise to Lyanna to raise him as his own child– this might be a long shot, but this could be the reason why he says “If he (…) was a man grown, (…) but a boy of fourteen..) ).Ned also gives Catelyn an “anguished look” when she tells him that Jon cannot stay – in this moment he is not sympathetic as often but angry, because Catelyn resents Jon because of false jealousy and he again can’t tell the truth to clear things up (because of the promise to Lyanna).

Additionally, Catelyn’s observation on page 66 might be astute (“Whoever Jon’s Mother might have been, Ned must have loved her fiercely “) – she knows her husband well, and if Lyanna is Jon’s mother, this is entirely true, although not even remotely in the sense she suspects.

oh, it seems my text became quite a bit longer than I expected^^

What I find interesting is that Ned allows Robert to believe that Wylla is Jon's mother, and yet in an albeit indirect way, he also allows Catelyn to believe that Ashara is Jon's mother because although he never confirms it when Catelyn asks, he does not deny it either. Ie. he doesn't say that it's actually someone else (presumably because that might prompt her to start asking more questions), he retorts with "Never ask me about Jon. He is my blood and that is all you need to know".

Ned's angry and abrupt response implies to me that the subject of Jon's parentage is a source of anguish and stress, but whichever way you look at it, he is indirectly allowing Robert to believe one thing while allowing Catelyn and even Cersei to believe something else.

I heard of a very interesting theory in psychology literature some time ago, which implied that whenever someone wants to avert suspicion or blame, that person will attempt to divert that suspicion or blame elsewhere without ever localising it. To me, this is EXACTLY what Ned is doing. While it cannot be said that he is actively going out of his way to divert suspicion, he is not pinpointing Jon's mother to either woman, he is simply allowing different people to believe different things, hence he is NOT localising the identity of Jon's mother.

[Alia of the knife]

Something that strikes me as very interesting is that when Arianne introduces Ser Gerold to Myrcella in Feast, it is with this flourish

(italics mine)

Is she just trying to make him seem more impressive or is there perhaps less of a difference between the branches than we have been led to believe?

Perhaps.

And the reason for the second question is that a friend pointed out that her interpretation was that High Hermitage was not exactly like a "House" in the way I interpreted it.

I thought the name was just a nod to where it was located and it's inability to be breached in an attack. :dunno:

And when I read the Wiki, it still seemed vague on what High Hermitage was. On the one hand, it states Ser Gerold, (and note he is not called Lord Gerold), though his title is "Lord" of High Hermitage. He also doesn't have a wife which is a little unusual for his age unless he was holding out for Arianne.

But, if High Hermitage is something like a Barracks, or non-religious monastery for Knights, then living with a bunch of men would likely not be a place for a wife, and maybe he has to "marry up" to actually have any land though his bloodline is of the highest nobility.

[Alia of the knife]

A thought occurs to me regarding Ashara, her dishonor, and what Selmy knows, and that is what if he has it backwards, and Ashara was actually the one who did the seducing, especially if it was Brandon as I believe it was.

Brandon might have been known for taking what he wanted, but I think that is to some degree symbolic rather than literal as in taking the woman he wanted even though his brother wanted her too. Like the Red Viper who likely had women offering themselves to him, I imagine it was no different for Brandon, especially as the the heir to Winterfell.

One thing Arianne says she does regarding her lovers is "drink her tea."

If Ashara was "dishonored," then likely she too would have drank her tea. The fact that a pregnancy followed the encounter might suggest she wanted the man who was the Father of her child, and was willing to do whatever it took to get him, even if he were already betrothed.

[DreamEater53]

Hello there guys, I'm new to this forum, I've been a visitor since I started the books, but just recently joined. I'm actually working on my first re-read now, and I'm about 100 pages into GoT.

Now my question is, if we consider for a moment, and I know the R+L=J is the most popular and widely recognized theory, but purely out of curiosity or speculation or what have you... If Lyanna is not Jon's mother, what did she make Ned promise?

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Perhaps.

And the reason for the second question is that a friend pointed out that her interpretation was that High Hermitage was not exactly like a "House" in the way I interpreted it.

I thought the name was just a nod to where it was located and it's inability to be breached in an attack. :dunno:

And when I read the Wiki, it still seemed vague on what High Hermitage was. On the one hand, it states Ser Gerold, (and note he is not called Lord Gerold), though his title is "Lord" of High Hermitage. He also doesn't have a wife which is a little unusual for his age unless he was holding out for Arianne.

But, if High Hermitage is something like a Barracks, or non-religious monastery for Knights, then living with a bunch of men would likely not be a place for a wife, and maybe he has to "marry up" to actually have any land though his bloodline is of the highest nobility.

I've been particpating in another thread devoted to Darkstar, and have recently read every text reference to him I can find as well as the one and only SSM. To my surprise, it doesn't say that High Hermitage is a cadet branch anywhere but on the wiki. In the text we get only the quote I referenced above and this from the Appendix of Feast:

SER GEROLD DAYNE, called DARKSTAR, the Knight of High Hermitage, his (Edric Dayne's) cousin and bannerman

The SSM says only

Then he [William Lexner] said that Ran wanted to know how old Darkstar was.

George got that 'i don't fucking know' look on his face, then replied that he had Ran to answer those sorts of questions

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Darkstars_Age

It turns out the information on his age is from the app ("late twenties") as is the designation of Dayne of High Hermitage as a "cadet branch."

I think it's distinctly possible that Darkstar is both younger and much more closely related to Ashara et al than we have been led to believe

:dunno:

[Mladen]

First, welcome to the forum

Second there is a pinned thread you can ask this.

[King of Winters]

Welocome to the Forum :cheers:

Seeing how there's enough evidence to back it up it would highly doubt it's wrong.

But if it wasn't true I'd say she made Ned promise that he'd bury her in Winterfell.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

To bury her at Winterfell? :dunno: R+L=J offers the best explanation for this.

[DaveSnow House Stark]

Burying at Winterfell seems like the only other item, and that seems pretty weak.

[DreamEater53]

Thank you for the welcomes!

I'm of that belief too. I was just curious mainly because I've seen some of the crazy well thought out posts from everyone else and thought "oh crap, maybe I missed something" so that was my way of first off, introducing myself, and secondly to make sure I didn't miss anything :D

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

A thought occurs to me regarding Ashara, her dishonor, and what Selmy knows, and that is what if he has it backwards, and Ashara was actually the one who did the seducing, especially if it was Brandon as I believe it was.

Brandon might have been known for taking what he wanted, but I think that is to some degree symbolic rather than literal as in taking the woman he wanted even though his brother wanted her too. Like the Red Viper who likely had women offering themselves to him, I imagine it was no different for Brandon, especially as the the heir to Winterfell.

One thing Arianne says she does regarding her lovers is "drink her tea."

If Ashara was "dishonored," then likely she too would have drank her tea. The fact that a pregnancy followed the encounter might suggest she wanted the man who was the Father of her child, and was willing to do whatever it took to get him, even if he were already betrothed.

I agree with this. The comparison with Arianne is quite a good one since they come from the same culture. There is no reason to think Ashara wouldn't have drunk moon tea if she wanted to avoid pregnancy. Even though we know that not all methods of birth control are foolproof, I think the simplest answer to Ashara's pregnancy would be that it was not unwanted. I've actually suggested in the past that Barristan, as man more than twenty years her senior would have been more comparable to a father figure. As such, he would be expected to take a more traditional and conservative view of things. His assumption that she was "dishonored" fits what we know of his personality and his protective mien towards Ashara. Brandon may have "taken what he wanted" in terms of having a fling with Ashara, knowing full well he couldn't offer her anything more, while she may have thrown caution to the wind in an attempt to ensnare him. It is after all a tale as old as time, and fits nicely with the parallel of Ashara to the Lady of Shallott that I offered on my Arthurian thread.

[A Crow Come Over]

Thank you for the welcomes!

I'm of that belief too. I was just curious mainly because I've seen some of the crazy well thought out posts from everyone else and thought "oh crap, maybe I missed something" so that was my way of first off, introducing myself, and secondly to make sure I didn't miss anything :D

The majority of this forum considers R+L=J as canon, which I think is a mistake and then start basing other theories on "If R+L=J is right" which causes more confusion.

To me its a strong possibility its true but also a strong possibility its a red herring for something else.

[The Wolves]

Sorry if its been discussed already and this thread isn't if R+L=J it's why do some dislike the idea so much. So why do some dislike the theory so much?

[Hukthagz]

They don't like the union of Ice and Fire.

[Zupoleon]

I've been particpating in another thread devoted to Darkstar, and have recently read every text reference to him I can find as well as the one and only SSM. To my surprise, it doesn't say that High Hermitage is a cadet branch anywhere but on the wiki. In the text we get only the quote I referenced above and this from the Appendix of Feast:

The SSM says only

http://www.westeros....y/Darkstars_Age

It turns out the information on his age is from the app ("late twenties") as is the designation of Dayne of High Hermitage as a "cadet branch."

I think it's distinctly possible that Darkstar is both younger and much more closely related to Ashara et al than we have been led to believe

:dunno:

As you say, perhaps the relation is closer than that of a cadet branch. I've wondered if High Hermitage was just a second seat of House Dayne, just as Summerhall was for the Targaryens...

[Maxpey]

Sorry if its been discussed already and this thread isn't if R+L=J it's why do some dislike the idea so much. So why do some dislike the theory so much?

I can tell you from my own experience that I intially fell for the cover story that Ned was Jon's father hook, line and sinker. Through all 5 books, there was no doubt in my mind. In addition, Ned and Jon immediately became my two favorite characters, in part because I saw so much of Ned in Jon. Finally, I found the idea that Ned loved Jon's mother so much that he was willing to foresake his vows to Catelyn to be with her incredibly poignant.

I don't want to say R + L = J ruined the picture I had in my mind of Ned and Jon's special relationship, but it clearly changed it, and not for the better.