R + L = J v 50

[Jory Cassel]

A thought occurs to me regarding Ashara, her dishonor, and what Selmy knows, and that is what if he has it backwards, and Ashara was actually the one who did the seducing, especially if it was Brandon as I believe it was.

Brandon might have been known for taking what he wanted, but I think that is to some degree symbolic rather than literal as in taking the woman he wanted even though his brother wanted her too. Like the Red Viper who likely had women offering themselves to him, I imagine it was no different for Brandon, especially as the the heir to Winterfell.

Full consent. As enchanted as Selmy was by her, he'd never suspect her of being responsible for the dishonour.

Therein might also lay the reason for Ashara's suicide; her lover dead and a stillborn child by him, and his brother killed hers.

Also, when Catelyn mentions Brandon (in aGoT), "that brought a bitter twist to Ned's mouth. Brandon. Yes. Brandon would know what to do.

He always did. It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything (...). "

Could be very well that this line refers to Ashara offering herself to Brandon and Ned being left out.

Or are there any other significant duties Ned inherited? I can't think of any.

It's also strange that the thought of Brandon brought a bitter twist to Ned's mouth.

Given the horrible circumstances of Brandon's death, the only way to remember him

should be in mourning, respect and maybe a bit of pity...unless, of course, there is something

we don't know yet.

[Alia of the knife]

I've been particpating in another thread devoted to Darkstar, and have recently read every text reference to him I can find as well as the one and only SSM. To my surprise, it doesn't say that High Hermitage is a cadet branch anywhere but on the wiki. In the text we get only the quote I referenced above and this from the Appendix of Feast:

The SSM says only

http://www.westeros....y/Darkstars_Age

It turns out the information on his age is from the app ("late twenties") as is the designation of Dayne of High Hermitage as a "cadet branch."

I think it's distinctly possible that Darkstar is both younger and much more closely related to Ashara et al than we have been led to believe

:dunno:

I know the App. confirmed he was in his mid to late twenties, and of course he had an affair with Arianne, which I suspected.

You know my crackpot theory, :ph34r: and if that were true, then a "hermitage" where the "Jedi" lived might be a good place to stow him away. The Red Viper thought him a poison- why?

If DS could cause Elia to be posthumously discredited, that might be a reason the Red Viper might hate him, and DS be thought of as the most dangerous man in Dorne, as well as what other secrets, (Jon), he might know.

It might also explain why he is highborn enough for Arianne to have married.

Full consent. As enchanted as Selmy was by her, he'd never suspect her of being responsible for the dishonour.

Therein might also lay the reason for Ashara's suicide; her lover dead and a stillborn child by him, and his brother killed hers.

Also, when Catelyn mentions Brandon (in aGoT), "that brought a bitter twist to Ned's mouth. Brandon. Yes. Brandon would know what to do.

He always did. It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything (...). "

Could be very well that this line refers to Ashara offering herself to Brandon and Ned being left out.

Or are there any other significant duties Ned inherited? I can't think of any.

It's also strange that the thought of Brandon brought a bitter twist to Ned's mouth.

Given the horrible circumstances of Brandon's death, the only way to remember him

should be in mourning, respect and maybe a bit of pity...unless, of course, there is something

we don't know yet.

Yes, Ned essentially inherited Brandons life, and if Brandon made promises to Ashara that he couldn't keep, then that might be a reason she might have turned to "Stark."

She wouldn't have known at Harrenhal she was pregnant, but if Brandon had promised to try and get out of the marriage with Cat, but couldn't, or lied about it, breaking her heart, she might be desperate and turn to the only person that could make Brandon do the right thing.

If Brandon plighted his troth with Ashara, that would indeed interfere with the marriage contract his father made with the Tullys even if he didn't have that right to make those promises.

Another honorable House has been slighted, and I don't think Rickards sense of stringent honor would allow him to overlook the Daynes.

[Ygrain]

Full consent. As enchanted as Selmy was by her, he'd never suspect her of being responsible for the dishonour.

Therein might also lay the reason for Ashara's suicide; her lover dead and a stillborn child by him, and his brother killed hers.

Also, when Catelyn mentions Brandon (in aGoT), "that brought a bitter twist to Ned's mouth. Brandon. Yes. Brandon would know what to do.

He always did. It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything (...). "

Could be very well that this line refers to Ashara offering herself to Brandon and Ned being left out.

Or are there any other significant duties Ned inherited? I can't think of any.

It's also strange that the thought of Brandon brought a bitter twist to Ned's mouth.

Given the horrible circumstances of Brandon's death, the only way to remember him

should be in mourning, respect and maybe a bit of pity...unless, of course, there is something

we don't know yet.

Again absolutely agree, jealousy over his brother's birthright is yet another thing out of character for Ned, whereas rivalry over Ashara would fit perfectly.

[Tim Stark]

I think R+L=J is true, but I don't Like it. I hate the idea of Jon not being Ned's son, especially considering that Jon idolized him and is arguably the most like him out of all of the Stark kids. All this and I really don't see what's so magical about being a Targaryan

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

As you say, perhaps the relation is closer than that of a cadet branch. I've wondered if High Hermitage was just a second seat of House Dayne, just as Summerhall was for the Targaryens...

Could well be a seat given to a younger son or perhaps a title like Prince of Dragonstone or (IRL) Prince of Wales? If Ser Gerold is Edric's (or Edric's father's) first or second cousin he could actually be his heir after all...

[Bold Barry Whitebeard]

I don't like it for several reasons.

1. It places too much importance on Jon. In a series where "there is no main character" it promotes Jon to being the union of fire and ice, a claimant to the seven kingdoms, a possible Azor Ahai candidate, LC of the Night's Watch etc. It's too much literary significance for one character.

2. It relies on everything that is actually said in the books being a lie or misdirection, and assigning hidden meanings to things to make them clues. This to me violates Occam's Razor.

3. Mostly, I dislike the dismissive attitude of some of the R+L=J supporters on this board for any contrary theories.

[DavosSeaworthy]

They don't like the idea of Jon not being Ned's son, but Jon is Ned's son so to speak. Ned raised him, trained him, taught him his moral compass, loved him and helped him become who he is. Being a father is more than donating sperm to a vagina.

[finger]

This is all imaginary, and not supported at all in the books. Aerys was mad, and would he care about Aegon? No, he cares about his son, Viserys, and sends him to Dragonstone, and if Aegon dies his son inherits. The one that he raised since he was captured at Duskendale and began his madness. Aerys does believe that if he sets King's Landing afire that he will rise up as a dragon to burn his enemies, so he isn't concerned with who will inherit, as he thinks he will retain the crown, himself. He had no special link to Ashara that we know of. Gregor is not really bright enough to plan, or even think to cover up that Aegon was unfound. Gregor went to the nursery and found Aegon, smashed his head on the wall, and then took Elia and raped her.

Not many things are really supported in the books, and we have to use our imagination to guess Martin's notion. You're using your imagination as well. For instance, Aerys didn't care about his granson. Where did you take it from? Or Gregor actions. Why should he smash Aegon's head. On top of that, you're getting the information from renouned liars o people interested in lying. So, I'll use again my imagination and I'll try to find a storyline that is not denied by the known facts and explain better some behaviours. Of course, Martin has the last word.

After the Trident, Aerys was worried about war's outcome. So, he allowed Rhaella to flee (Ned said flee) to DS with Viserys.

He didn't allow Elia to escape, but took her as a hostage to make sure that Dorne wasn't joining the rebellion.

Elia begged him to let Aegon be taken at least, and proposed that her lady in waiting Ashara could take him to her holdfast in Starfall. After all, he was Aerys' grandson, and the notion of having his heirs scattered just in case it all went wrong, was good enough under the cirsumstances. Aerys obliged.

When the sack, Clegane went into Elia's rooms and he didn't find Aegon. Until the war was over, they could be good hostages to threaten the Targaryen loyals. They were less valuable dead, but he had to find Aegon. So, he tortured Elia and Rhaenys, without getting any answer but, the boy is not in KL. And here is the pinch of truth in Varys account: they went to Fleebottom, found a baby of size and features such as to pass by Aegon, they smashed his head so that he couldn't be recognized, and they presented Rhaegar's family to their new king Robert.

I see that it must have been Tyrion who masterminded the plot. We wouldn't recognized to have failed in finding Aegon. As for Varys, he probably helped him as much as he could. It was in his own interest.

And now, don't tell me that I've used my imagination. I have. Better tell me the flaws in my story, or where it fits worse with known facts that versions from liars, even though they're PoV,s, because we should think they where lying.

[Jory Cassel]

Again absolutely agree, jealousy over his brother's birthright is yet another thing out of character for Ned, whereas rivalry over Ashara would fit perfectly.

good to know that my line of thought isn't erroneous, I sometimes tend to over-interpret.

spinning this thread further; isn't it possible that no word of Brandon's death came to Starfall by Bird

(due to the turmoil of the war and the relationship of B+A being unofficial), meaning that Eddard didn't only

bring word of Arthur Dayne's death but also of Brandon's to Starfall, leaving Ashara utterly desperate?

edit: punctuation

[finger]

Darkstar would have been around the same age as Viserys at the time of the Rebellion, so his memory is better than that of a small child, and he also said specifically he wanted justice for Elia.

He may have said that to appeal directly to the Martells and to get in good enough with them to marry Arianne, or there is another reason he mentions justice for Elia, as opposed to say justice for Ser Arthur, his own kinsman.

There is a reason too that Oberyn hated him and thought him a poison.

Arianne also stated that Darkstar was highborn enough to marry her, though her Father would have thought her mad. While the Daynes are a good and ancient family, I didn't realize they were highborn enough for a Princess of Dorne to marry.

On the matter of Aerys, I am beginning to rethink him as well, but in the sense that while he may have been paranoid, and mad, he wasn't necessarily wrong, though I don't think it was wrong either to want to remove him.

Yeah, when the rebellion war, Darkstark must have been of an age with Ned Dayne in the five king war. He can have memories, and he can even have had some kind of minor participation.

If there was a plot to remove Aerys, he wasn't being paranoid, but just wary. Should Jon had been more paranoid, and he might have not been stabbed. He was selfish and cruel, as was Viserys as well. Would you say Viserys was mad? This wouldn't be the word I'd use.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Full consent. As enchanted as Selmy was by her, he'd never suspect her of being responsible for the dishonour.

Therein might also lay the reason for Ashara's suicide; her lover dead and a stillborn child by him, and his brother killed hers.

Also, when Catelyn mentions Brandon (in aGoT), "that brought a bitter twist to Ned's mouth. Brandon. Yes. Brandon would know what to do.

He always did. It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything (...). "

Could be very well that this line refers to Ashara offering herself to Brandon and Ned being left out.

Or are there any other significant duties Ned inherited? I can't think of any.

It's also strange that the thought of Brandon brought a bitter twist to Ned's mouth.

Given the horrible circumstances of Brandon's death, the only way to remember him

should be in mourning, respect and maybe a bit of pity...unless, of course, there is something

we don't know yet.

Welcome to the Forum!

I think that what comes after "you, Winterfell, everything" is very revealing...

He [brandon] was born to be a King's Hand and a father to queens. I never asked for this cup to pass to me.

I've always thought this had something to do with Lord Rickard's Southron ambitions. The conversation Ned is having with Cat concerns his reluctance to accept Robert's offer of the Hand-ship and Joffrey and Sansa's betrothal. Ned would rather stay in Winterfell, but Cat is trying to convice him of the honors being offered and the dangers of declining those offers. When he raises Sansa's youth, she responds that she was twelve when she was promised to Brandon, which is what promopts the "bitter" (and out of character) comment. I agree that the "everything" possibly refers to some element of Brandon "taking what he wanted" where women were concerned. But there is also that comment about being Hand and a father to queens. It could certainly be just Ned reflecting on his own situation, but I think there's more to it than that, which makes me wonder if perhaps "everything" is much bigger than competition over girls. If Lord Rickard was somehow plotting to see Aerys deposed, he could well have had his sights on a very high honor for his eldest son. The prospect of wedding Brandon and Catelyn's children to Southron lords, perhaps even to one of the Targaryen princes may have been in the plans as well.

[Isy]

I read all the books back-to-back two years back and like a previous poster, never doubted that Ned was Jon's father, although didn't really have a solid grasp of who I thought Jon's mother would be. When I saw the R+L=J theory I thought, wow nice theory... later I realised that this theory is more widespread than I first thought, and (again as previous poster pointed out) is often considered fact, which is fine, but made me feel bit stupid for having not picked up on the clues myself! I guess also, that a bit of me is bitter because acknowledging R+L=J changed my perceptions of certain characters and the relationships between Ned and Jon, Cat and Ned, Cat and Jon, Ned and Lyanna when I read the books. By accepting R+L=J (and yes, the theory is very sound, and I agree is most likely answer to Jon's parentage at present) it forced me to reconsider Jon, Lyanna and Rhaegar, and also Ned, Cat, Robert, Dany e.t.c.This can be quite difficult to accept because when you get into a set of books you become attached to your own idea of those characters and for that reason I regretted hearing this damnable theory! However, I am currently re-reading AGOT for the first time, and it is such a joy because I feel I can pace myself better to pick up on the clues, and being familiar with the R+L=J (and many other) theories, I can pause when I reach certain segments to better analyse paragraphs full of "clues".

[Maxpey]

Not many things are really supported in the books, and we have to use our imagination to guess Martin's notion. You're using your imagination as well. For instance, Aerys didn't care about his granson. Where did you take it from? Or Gregor actions. Why should he smash Aegon's head. On top of that, you're getting the information from renouned liars o people interested in lying. So, I'll use again my imagination and I'll try to find a storyline that is not denied by the known facts and explain better some behaviours. Of course, Martin has the last word.

After the Trident, Aerys was worried about war's outcome. So, he allowed Rhaella to flee (Ned said flee) to DS with Viserys.

He didn't allow Elia to escape, but took her as a hostage to make sure that Dorne wasn't joining the rebellion.

Elia begged him to let Aegon be taken at least, and proposed that her lady in waiting Ashara could take him to her holdfast in Starfall. After all, he was Aerys' grandson, and the notion of having his heirs scattered just in case it all went wrong, was good enough under the cirsumstances. Aerys obliged.

When the sack, Clegane went into Elia's rooms and he didn't find Aegon. Until the war was over, they could be good hostages to threaten the Targaryen loyals. They were less valuable dead, but he had to find Aegon. So, he tortured Elia and Rhaenys, without getting any answer but, the boy is not in KL. And here is the pinch of truth in Varys account: they went to Fleebottom, found a baby of size and features such as to pass by Aegon, they smashed his head so that he couldn't be recognized, and they presented Rhaegar's family to their new king Robert.

I see that it must have been Tyrion who masterminded the plot. We wouldn't recognized to have failed in finding Aegon. As for Varys, he probably helped him as much as he could. It was in his own interest.

And now, don't tell me that I've used my imagination. I have. Better tell me the flaws in my story, or where it fits worse with known facts that versions from liars, even though they're PoV,s, because we should think they where lying.

The idea that Tywin couldn't find Aegon so he had the Mountain murder a different child in such a way that the child was unrecognizable actually makes more sense than Varys' switching babies.

We saw Theon do the same thing with the miller's boys (or was one of them his?).

[LyrnaSnowBunnyAvenger]

They don't like the idea of Jon not being Ned's son, but Jon is Ned's son so to speak. Ned raised him, trained him, taught him his moral compass, loved him and helped him become who he is. Being a father is more than donating sperm to a vagina.

:agree: This 100%. Not liking R+L=J becase it somehow makes Jon not Ned's son is ridiculous. What does that say to every adopted child or adopting parent out there? Of course Jon is still Ned's son, regardless of who fathered him.

[Ser Greg of House House]

Because they love Ned sooo much, they NEED him to be Jon's daddy.

Well, some hate Targs and want Jon to have nothing to do with them. Well, actually a good reason since all Targs we know are batshit crazy and likely to burn people alive etc. But Rhaegar was not so bad, apparently.

Another good reason is that it erases the one mistake Ned made, something that made his character more real. Now he's plain honor. Maybe betraying Robert is kind of dishonorable, but he did it to save a baby, his sister's baby... so yeah.

I like the theory, though I think people overestimate its importance. Even if Jon and the whole realm find out about it, who would believe it? It's not as if they would bend the knee to Jon or anything. It's not even like Jon will style himself king or whatever.

[Maxpey]

:agree: This 100%. Not liking R+L=J becase it somehow makes Jon not Ned's son is ridiculous. What does that say to every adopted child or adopting parent out there? Of course Jon is still Ned's son, regardless of who fathered him.

I agree that for all intents and purposes Ned will always be Jon's father, but learning that he is not Ned's biological son changed the dynamic of their relationship for me; specifically, it made me question whether Ned viewed Jon as his son or his nephew.

[finger]

But now comes the odd part: on page 65 of Got Catelyn is in thoughts: “Ned brought his Bastard home with him and called him son for all the north to see”

It is clear that Eddard wouldn’t hide a bastard, but he wouldn’t “brag” about him either. So does he declare his son so openly while at the same time being extremely secretive about his mother? When Catelyn asks him about her, it is “the only time (…) that Ned had ever frightened her. “Never ask me about Jon” he said, cold as ice. “He is my blood, and that is all you need to know”.

In my opinion, the rather obvious reaction of someone with such strict moral rules who had forsaken his marital vows would be apologizing and sincere regret. Now it’s rather unlikely that Wylla is Jon’s mother, if it was true, there wouldn’t be any reason I can think of why he wouldn’t tell Catelyn that it was her, she’d probably take it easily, as she would not be jealous of some lowborn wench/wetnurse (compared to Ashara and the rumours of her beauty). Eventually, it would’ve been a convenient lie, and it would’ve shut off most speculation as a consequence, too.

The conclusion that can be drawn is: Ned despises lying and avoids it whenever possible, and therefore (although not with certainty) Wylla probably is not Jon’s mother.

Now to the interesting part: Why is Eddard so eager to shut up the rumor about Ashara being Jon’s mother? I can only think of two reasons for that (correct me please, if there are more):

1. Ashara is not Jon’s mother and Eddard hates to see lies spreading, possibly also in the context of Eddard not being Jon’s father but posing as him and therefore being dishonored (also he thinks that Catelyn might feel diminished when comparing herself to Ashara, who Eddard apparently chose over her).

2. Ashara is Jon’s mother, but for some reason (grief? regret?) he wants the rumours to stop to not be reminded of her. Unlikely, as he scarcely violates his moral code and if he does, he admits it and stands by his mistakes.

I think possibility 1 is very likely, but there might be another reason why he cares to end the rumors although they seem convenient (as protection if L+R=J is the case). This did not seem to fit into any of the theories, until I remembered the description of the tourney at Harrenhal. Ned danced with Ashara after his brother Brandon talked to her. As it is said earlier, Ned is silent and shy, not to open, that suggests that he had romantic interest in Ashara but he did not dare to approach her, so Brandon asked her for him. Very inconclusive that this Ned would be the one to dishonor Ashara at that same tourney, this would suggest that there was a completely different, savage side of Ned that no one knows of (not impossible, but inconclusive). Especially when one considers how Ned is described smaller, less comely and far more calm/shy/silent than his older brother. Furthermore, it is said that Ned took no joy in his bedding but marched to it like a soldier out of duty (I can’t remember the exact quote) – implausible that a character like that has a passionate affair with a dornishwoman.

Wellcome.

I've haven't fount it long but interesting. And I mostly agree. Let's see.

Some bastards are recognized by their father, like Edirc Storm. I think Ned's was a mere recognition, but he was not bloating. He had to say something about Jon's parents.

I've been also surprised by Ned's reaction when he heard about Ashara being Jon's mother. I find it disproportionate. After all, the boy was sure to have a mother, and if he hadn't been wise enough to create his own rumour, it's no wonder that people gossip at will. I'm sure there's a rather long story between Ashara and Ned. I dare not say it was a passionate affair, but I'm convinced that some things happened, and I'm trying to find out.

I've said I must open a thread on it, but I'm not sure how to start it.

[finger]

good to know that my line of thought isn't erroneous, I sometimes tend to over-interpret.

spinning this thread further; isn't it possible that no word of Brandon's death came to Starfall by Bird

(due to the turmoil of the war and the relationship of B+A being unofficial), meaning that Eddard didn't only

bring word of Arthur Dayne's death but also of Brandon's to Starfall, leaving Ashara utterly desperate?

edit: punctuation

Actually, Brandon died before the war started. At the time, even Ashara migh have been in KL, and know it first hand.

[Fire and Blood!]

For me it's really simple, I generally like the Targaryens and I greatly dislike Jon, hence I don't want him to be one of them. Simple as that.

[Sullen]

It feels too much like a Cinderall story, it's not surprising, and feels too traditional in an otherwise nontraditional story.

And yeah, it puts too much importance on Jon... and I hate Jon.