R + L = J v 50

[Ygrain]

Thats getting a bit too semantic even for me . I agree that the gold would be a good reward for the journey and loosing her father though after all ned isnt the type of guy to pay for sex and hes hardly going to know shes pregnant the morning after

Well, don't forget that Lord Godric speaks with the benefit of hindsight. Ned may never have learned that the girl had a bastard.

[JanAgro]

Well, don't forget that Lord Godric speaks with the benefit of hindsight. Ned may never have learned that the girl had a bastard.

Thats what im trying to say Ned never knew about the kid he left behind since Godric never mentions Ned coming back to thank him/his father or anything along those lines

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Well, don't forget that Lord Godric speaks with the benefit of hindsight. Ned may never have learned that the girl had a bastard.

Correct. Lord Godric also makes an assumption (a common theme in ASoIaF) based on that hindsight that Ned was the father. I think GRRM is pretty crafty with the way he words things and the semantics are a big clue to that for me.

[Ygrain]

Thats what im trying to say Ned never knew about the kid he left behind since Godric never mentions Ned coming back to thank him/his father or anything along those lines

Ah, I see. I didn't grasp what you meant, sorry.

[The God of Death]

Well, I posted the other thread when I was brand new here, and didn't know that such a sticky existed!

[Jon Icefyre]

Correct. Lord Godric also makes an assumption (a common theme in ASoIaF) based on that hindsight that Ned was the father. I think GRRM is pretty crafty with the way he words things and the semantics are a big clue to that for me.

I mean if you're trying to figure out who the possible father of a fisherman's daughter's child could be and you examine the men she's interacted with or have been seen with, the guy that's a high lord and warden of the North is probably the one that's gonna stick out above the rest lol. I mean so far all we know is that Godric's opinion is based solely off the fact that Ned shared a boat with this chick and then paid her for her services. Nothing really suspicious there, just because she became pregnant later doesn't mean Ned was the father, I mean I highly doubt anyone did any actual investigating into the matter to see if there were any other possible suspects that could be the father. It seems to me like Godric just knew lord Eddard Stark shared a boat with the fisherman's daughter and therefore assumed he was the father of her child.

[The Fallen]

Well, I posted the other thread when I was brand new here, and didn't know that such a sticky existed!

I just wanted to say that I wasn't offended and didn't take it personal. My post (the last before the thread was locked) was a general comment and wasn't directed at you personally.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I mean if you're trying to figure out who the possible father of a fisherman's daughter's child could be and you examine the men she's interacted with or have been seen with, the guy that's a high lord and warden of the North is probably the one that's gonna stick out above the rest lol. I mean so far all we know is that Godric's opinion is based solely off the fact that Ned shared a boat with this chick and then paid her for her services. Nothing really suspicious there, just because she became pregnant later doesn't mean Ned was the father, I mean I highly doubt anyone did any actual investigating into the matter to see if there were any other possible suspects that could be the father. It seems to me like Godric just knew lord Eddard Stark shared a boat with the fisherman's daughter and therefore assumed he was the father of her child.

That's exactly what I was trying to say! I see no reason to even consider Ned fathering a child in that way, especially given what we know of his character and the funny little way the rumor is worded.

[Jon Icefyre]

I see no reason to even consider Ned fathering a child in that way, especially given what we know of his character and the funny little way the rumor is worded.

:agree:

[corbon]

Oh, I think it's highly possible this is a fishy tale... but in order for the tale to have held for some 16 years she had to at one time have a pregnancy, NOT have a baby, have come up with some gold..

Excuse me? Since when did a nice piece of salaciously juicy gossip need actual facts to keep alive? B)

And thence to pass into local folklore as 'fact' - or urban legend if you like.

That's exactly what I was trying to say! I see no reason to even consider Ned fathering a child in that way, especially given what we know of his character and the funny little way the rumor is worded.

Indeed. "You were never the boy you were".

[Ygrain]

Well, I posted the other thread when I was brand new here, and didn't know that such a sticky existed!

Oh, rest assured, it took me a couple of months to realize what R+L at the top of the page meant :D

[finger]

:agree: Seriously, like we get that ppl really want some alt theories to work and Ashara might very well have a child out there somewhere, but Ned is most likely not the father of that child and Rhaegar is most definitely not the father! Brandon Stark is the most likely candidate for who the father would be IMO, followed by Aerys and then Ned with a slim chance, but Rhaegar is no where even close to a possibility........

I wouldn't start again, because I have no clue of what happened. Let's recap.

I don't believe she committed suicide, so she must have faked it. Why should she? To flee.

I don't see any reason to flee, unless she were taking a Targ with her. Why else?

This Targ could be Aegon, if we believe Varis. She might have been with Elia when she wasn't allowed to leave KL and be sent to SF. Aerys had no reason to prevent it and she could tuck away the baby. This would be the Gilly connection.

Or Jon could have a twin who took after R, and Ned didn't find it wise to take him to WF, so he left him with Ashara. This would be total surprise.

Or it was her own child, with two possible fathers; Aerys and R. If Aerys, he should have been extremely prolific, letting impregnated every woman he raped :eek: R is the other possibility. They lived together while Elia was sick. Why not?

But I think I'm being clear: there are some possibilities to explore, and any of them could work. You can choose the one you like best.

And , as Maxpey says, you can't deny it's funny.

[Jon Icefyre]

I wouldn't start again, because I have no clue of what happened. Let's recap.

I don't believe she committed suicide, so she must have faked it. Why should she? To flee.

I don't see any reason to flee, unless she were taking a Targ with her. Why else?

This Targ could be Aegon, if we believe Varis. She might have been with Elia when she wasn't allowed to leave KL and be sent to SF. Aerys had no reason to prevent it and she could tuck away the baby. This would be the Gilly connection.

Or Jon could have a twin who took to R, and Ned didn't find it wise to take him to WF, so he left him with Ashara. This would be total surprise.

Or it was her own child, with two possible fathers; Aerys and R. If Aerys, he should have been extremely prolific, letting impregnated every woman he raped :eek: R is the other possibility. They lived together while Elia was sick. Why not?

But I think I'm being clear: there are some possibilities to explore, and any of them could work. You can choose the one you like best.

And , as Maxpey says, you can't deny it's funny.

I find it far more annoying than I do funny. And no I wouldn't say all of the possibilities that you just mentioned could 'work', just because your own imagination seems to think they do work, doesn't make it so. There is nothing in the text or interviews with GRRM whatsoever that would support or suggest even in the slightest bit that Rhaegar and Ashara had any sort of affair of any kind. You're basing this theory strictly off 100% of your own speculation, and thus it will never be taken seriously..... :P

[Barbossa]

Hello people, first time poster here. :)

Im only on my third book but watched all the show episodes so far.Due to some twats on the internet spoiling this for me i have some question on the matter:

-L has a arranged marriage with Robert.He loves her,she does not love him back.

-She loves Rhaegar.

-At some tourney she runs away with Rhaegar ..to where exactly?Or do they stay in Kings Landing?

-Robert gets pissed off and starts a rebellion just cause a girl left him?

[Ygrain]

Hello people, first time poster here. :)

Im only on my third book but watched all the show episodes so far.Due to some twats on the internet spoiling this for me i have some question on the matter:

-L has a arranged marriage with Robert.He loves her,she does not love him back.

-She loves Rhaegar.

-At some tourney she runs away with Rhaegar ..to where exactly?Or do they stay in Kings Landing?

-Robert gets pissed off and starts a rebellion just cause a girl left him?

Welcome to the forums :-)

It's bit more complex than that.

The first one is a stated fact, the second can be inferred from various hints. The tourney actually takes place about a year before the two disappear, the official version is abduction. They cannot be found, and only after the war Lyanna is found at an old watchtower in the pass on the borders of Dorne, called by Rhaegar "tower of joy". It is not clear whether they spent the whole time there but they were definitely never in KL.

Although Lyanna's supposed abduction did set things in motion, the rebellion was started by Jon Arryn when he rejected Aerys' demand for Ned and Roberts' heads.

- But if you have read the first three books, then you already have the majority of clues; the are just scattered all over the PoVs.

[FittleLinger]

I know I'm late and I'm sorry to return to Darkstar. Some of you guys said that he might have knowledge that is dangerous - yes, I totally think this might be it, I've been throwing it around since my day one on those boards. Not only do we see that he tried and failed to kill a little girl, but Doran doesn't strike me as the type of guy to be so impressed with someone over his battle prowess. "The most dangerous man in Dorne" because he is great (let's even assume he is the greatest ever) with a blade would be a bit out of character for Doran to think, IMO.

[Ygrain]

I know I'm late and I'm sorry to return to Darkstar. Some of you guys said that he might have knowledge that is dangerous - yes, I totally think this might be it, I've been throwing it around since my day one on those boards. Not only do we see that he tried and failed to kill a little girl, but Doran doesn't strike me as the type of guy to be so impressed with someone over his battle prowess. "The most dangerous man in Dorne" because he is great (let's even assume he is the greatest ever) with a blade would be a bit out of character for Doran to think, IMO.

Being great with a blade AND having a bad character AND messing with Doran's foolish daughter would have been a sound basis for the label, I believe.

[FittleLinger]

Being great with a blade AND having a bad character AND messing with Doran's foolish daughter would have been a sound basis for the label, I believe.

Of course you might be right but... I don't know, those explanations don't really click to me. I might be reading too much, certainly. But that's a man who's been plotting a revenge for years, whose brother was the Red Viper. Whose daughters are the sand snakes, who think that Doran is a coward and a weakling, just like more than half of Dorne. And amongst those, he thinks that Darkstar is the most dangerous man in Dorne... I don't know, sounds fishy.

I'm not saying that Darkstar knows about R+L specifically. I am only saying that the thing that makes him "the most dangerous" is something that we don't know yet.

[MtnLion]

I wouldn't start again, because I have no clue of what happened. Let's recap.

I don't believe she committed suicide, so she must have faked it. Why should she? To flee.

I don't see any reason to flee, unless she were taking a Targ with her. Why else?

This Targ could be Aegon, if we believe Varis. She might have been with Elia when she wasn't allowed to leave KL and be sent to SF. Aerys had no reason to prevent it and she could tuck away the baby. This would be the Gilly connection.

Or Jon could have a twin who took to R, and Ned didn't find it wise to take him to WF, so he left him with Ashara. This would be total surprise.

Or it was her own child, with two possible fathers; Aerys and R. If Aerys, he should have been extremely prolific, letting impregnated every woman he raped :eek: R is the other possibility. They lived together while Elia was sick. Why not?

But I think I'm being clear: there are some possibilities to explore, and any of them could work. You can choose the one you like best.

And , as Maxpey says, you can't deny it's funny.

As I understand things, Ashara lived with Elia, while Elia was sick. Ashara was Elia's companion, or did you find another book?

[Snark_Tamer]

Of course you might be right but... I don't know, those explanations don't really click to me. I might be reading too much, certainly. But that's a man who's been plotting a revenge for years, whose brother was the Red Viper. Whose daughters are the sand snakes, who think that Doran is a coward and a weakling, just like more than half of Dorne. And amongst those, he thinks that Darkstar is the most dangerous man in Dorne... I don't know, sounds fishy.

I'm not saying that Darkstar knows about R+L specifically. I am only saying that the thing that makes him "the most dangerous" is something that we don't know yet.

I agree that knowing a secret strikes me as a lot sounder reason behind 'most dangerous man in Dorne' but it DOESN'T seem the secret would be R+L or else that would mean Doran knows that secret, too. Doran was close to Aerys (betrothing their children). This runs COUNTER to protecting a secret about Rhaegar having another (living) child--his own kids would be farther from the line, marrying Aerys's younger, when the sons of the oldest would fall earlier in succession.