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R + L = J v 50


Stubby

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Because it was strategically located (the castle), the Areo Hotah comment is irrelevant. She needed "muscle" to carry out her plan and, besides Areo, Dorkstar was the supposedly the deadliest the fighter in Dorne.

She says he good with a sword, but she never once said he was, "The deadliest fighter in Dorne." In fact no one ever says that. Doran said he was the most dangerous man and Oberyn said he was a poison but no one ever acknowledges him as the deadliest warrior in Dorne.....

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IIRC there-s several times (books 3 & 5) where is said that Ned Stark and Ashara Deyne had an affair. First at the tourney of Harrenhal, according to Meera Reed (telling the story of some mysterious knight), second Edric Deyne tell Arya that his aunt Allyrya told him that Ned and Lady Ashara were in love. In the book 5 Barristan Selmy remember that Ashara committed suicide when her daughter was taken born dead or because the man who dishonored in Harrenhal.

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IIRC there-s several times (books 3 & 5) where is said that Ned Stark and Ashara Deyne had an affair. First at the tourney of Harrenhal, according to Meera Reed (telling the story of some mysterious knight), second Edric Deyne tell Arya that his aunt Allyrya told him that Ned and Lady Ashara were in love. In the book 5 Barristan Selmy remember that Ashara committed suicide when her daughter was taken born dead or because the man who dishonored in Harrenhal.

It's never stated that they had an affair though. They danced at Harrenhal, but Ashara danced with many men (including Oberyn and Jon Connington), and her dance with Ned only came at Brandon's request.

The Daynes certainly know something, but the story Ned Dayne tells smells fishy. Why would Ned father a bastard on Wylla if he was in loe with Ashara? Something doesn't add up.

As for Barristan, he never says who dishonored Ashara, only that she turned to 'Stark' (which Stark?) afterwards.

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IIRC there-s several times (books 3 & 5) where is said that Ned Stark and Ashara Deyne had an affair. First at the tourney of Harrenhal, according to Meera Reed (telling the story of some mysterious knight), second Edric Deyne tell Arya that his aunt Allyrya told him that Ned and Lady Ashara were in love. In the book 5 Barristan Selmy remember that Ashara committed suicide when her daughter was taken born dead or because the man who dishonored in Harrenhal.

The Edric Dayne example is completely unreliable. Because in that same quote Edric also tells Arya that Wylla was a hand maiden in service to house Dayne and also the mother of Jon Snow.....So I don't really see how Ned on one hand could be "in love with Ashara Dayne", and yet otoh had impregnated one of Ashara's servants.......

TheguyfromtheVale :ninja:

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Wylla was his nurse, is not impossible that Wylla was also Jon's nurse.

That's possible and indeed likely, but it gives us no proof either way for who Jon's mother was. If anything, it serves as a confirmation of sorts that Jon's mother had died at that point (so hinting at Lyanna, not Ashara, who was still alive when Ned went to Starfall)

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Wylla was his nurse, is not impossible that Wylla was also Jon's nurse.

I actually think she was but the point is Edric Dayne tells Arya that Wylla was also Jon's mother. Which means that Ned would have supposedly been 'in love' with Ashara and yet had impregnated Wylla....Ya something about Edric's story doesn't really add up.....

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IIRC there-s several times (books 3 & 5) where is said that Ned Stark and Ashara Deyne had an affair. First at the tourney of Harrenhal, according to Meera Reed (telling the story of some mysterious knight), second Edric Deyne tell Arya that his aunt Allyrya told him that Ned and Lady Ashara were in love. In the book 5 Barristan Selmy remember that Ashara committed suicide when her daughter was taken born dead or because the man who dishonored in Harrenhal.

Barristan remembers that a man dishonored Ashara (thank goodness it wasn't a woman, eh?)

I find it real odd that he doesn't reveal who he thinks it is, and maybe that is a clue. Look a little earlier on and you see that Aerys decided to attend the tourney and everything went awry from there. 1 + 1 = 2

Barristan is speculating on why Ashara committed suicide, it is apparent that he has no idea, but consider if Elia's child were stillborn and a girl. That would be her failure, not being capable of providing an heir to the prince. If Ashara and Elia had switched babies, and Ashara heard about Gregor from Ned when he visited to return Dawn, wouldn't that be cause for her gloom?

But, the Tourney at Harrenhal was about two years before King's Landing fell, and Aerys died.

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.....And what about Selmy?.....He was in the tourney of Harrenhal. It looks like he was sure it was Ned Stark.

Selmy never said Ashara did anything intimate with Ned at the TOH. All he says is that she was dishonored and that she turned to a Stark. He never specifically says Ned so the Stark she turned to could have just as likely been Brandon Stark, and if she turned to a Stark because of being 'dishonored' meaning she sought out a Stark for help after being dishonored then that Stark could have been Lyanna as well. Or maybe it was Ned and she only sought him out for help after being dishonored and not to actually sleep with him......Ser Barristan's thoughts on the matter were extremely vague.

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.....And what about Selmy?.....He was in the tourney of Harrenhal. It looks like he was sure it was Ned Stark.

I need to make a small correction here, the quote is that Ashara "looked to Stark." That can be as in looking for justice. What if the king is guilty of a crime in this society, what can be done? It seems likely that the major houses can take action. But, Barristan thinks that he could have provided better justice than Stark. There are only seven men in the kingdom that can get close to Aerys with swords.
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I most tell you i read the book in spanish but this is more or less the quote:

If Rhaegar had disassembled and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, would he have noticed me and not in Stark? "You never know, but of all his failures, none haunted him so much as that.

Again ... where does he mention NED Stark?

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To go raise her friend Elia's son, the true (as far as she knows, as Varys tells her) Targaryen Heir in Essos.

Fixed that for you. :P

Let me guess some people are resisting the idea of exploring different areas of the story if they don't match perfectly with the existing theory. I would suggest writing up your own ideas and posting your won thread, that way you will not bother the purists and might find some people more open to a braoder spectrum of discussion.

Contrary to popular opinion, its not 'resistance to different ideas' thats an issue with this thread, its the abominable arguments that have either facts wrong or gaping chasms of logic that nearly always go along with different ideas. And frequently, the utter obtuseness displayed by people desparately trying to argue those wrong facts and gaping chasms.

IIRC there-s several times (books 3 & 5) where is said that Ned Stark and Ashara Deyne had an affair. First at the tourney of Harrenhal, according to Meera Reed (telling the story of some mysterious knight), second Edric Deyne tell Arya that his aunt Allyrya told him that Ned and Lady Ashara were in love. In the book 5 Barristan Selmy remember that Ashara committed suicide when her daughter was taken born dead or because the man who dishonored in Harrenhal.

Always consider the sources.

Meera's story actually says nothing about a relationship. It says Ned was shy. Not even shy of Ashara, just shy. And it says that Brandon asked her to dance with Ned and she did, along with a lot of other people.

Then Ned Dayne, who wasn't actually born at the time, doesn;t have a clue and tells a garbled story about how Ned loved Ashara, but Wylla is Jon's mother, with Ned. Then consider Allyria. These events happened nearly 20 years ago by now. Allyria Dayne has been betrothed to Lord Beric Dondarrion for 6 years or more already Beric is in mis early-mid twenties, and a Lord, plenty old enough for marriage and with no restrictions at his end. So why such a long engagement and no marriage yet? The usual reason is the youth of the bride. And for Allyria to be old enough to have actually understood what was going on around her, relationships etc, 20 years ago, then she must be at least 28-30 by now, practically an old maid! Chances are Allyria was eitheir an infant or not yet even borne when Ashara supposedly committed suicide, so she doesn;t actually know what she's talking about either.

The you have Cersei, who wasn't at Harrenhal and had nothing to do with Ned or Ashara at that stage, so also doesn't actually know anything. She's just putting together the facts that Ned came away from Starfall with a bastard and Ashara committed suicide and coming up with N+A=J.

Same with the Winterfell rumours that Catelyn hears and Harren(?) tells Arya. Those peopel weren't present, and are connecting the same dots Cersei did.

Even Selmy. He was at Harrenhal and probably has a fairly good idea about what happened there - he was in love with Ashara Dayne and probably paying close attention to her, and clearly knows she was dishonoured and looked to a Stark. But he is highly unlikely to actually know about the still-born child - thats just something he's been told and has no reason not to believe, as he wouldn't have been present at a birth in Starfall, and even to himself he is only speculating at why she might have committed suicide, thinking over possible reasons, not 'reasons he knows she had'.

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But i don't believe she is Jon mother and neither had Rhaegar's child. She had an affair, lost her child and committed suicide, there's nothing more in that story.

Well I agree with you on her not being Jon's mother and her not having Rhaegar's child. So you think the child that was lost was Ned's?

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