R + L = J v 50

[MtnLion]

Fixed that for you. :P

Well, it does explain a lot of things if you think about the possibilities, but I understand why you are resisting. The Borg say, "Resistance is futile".

[Alia of the knife]

Well first of all I'm not even entirely convinced that Ashara is septa Lemore to begin with so I think it's a bit of a stretch to put so many assumptions on why Ashara would have "faked he own suicide" when it hasn't even been confirmed yet by GRRM that she's even still alive to begin with. Also again I said that it's certainly possible that Ashara has a child out there but if the child is indeed a Targ then it's Aerys not Rhaegar's. Sorry I'm not gonna say that a theory that involves Rhaegar getting three different noble women women pregnant within a three year time span is a credible theory. GRRM is not creating 68 degrees of Rhaegar Targaryen, I mean think about it, so Rhaegar first marrys Elia has two kids with her, then he decides that Elia's old news and her friend Ashara is much hotter so he starts gettin it on with her and impregnates her, only to realize that Lyanna is his one true love so he runs away with her and gets her pregnant? I mean are serious? It's a bad joke really and goes against pretty much everything we know about Rhaegar's character he was not some man whore that was impregnated noble ladies in Westeros left and right. Also Rhaegar says, "The dragon has three heads" not four.

Also has anyone ever considered that Ashara might have indeed meant to commit suicide but survived anyway? So she didn't return home out of her own shame and that's when she found Varys and found out about the young Griff/Aegon scheme and perhaps decided to devote her life to that? Once again Ashara might indeed have a child out there but if she does the father is most likely Aerys or Brandon, there's a very slim chance it's Ned yet still there's a chance, but there is absolutely no chance whatsoever that the father is Rhaegar sorry. Also due to the strong hints/references/foreshadowing GRRM put in ADWD about the Blackfyres, I'd say there's a much stronger/more likely chance that Young Griff/Faegon is actually a Blackfyre, considering all the strong Blackfyre references happened to appear in the same book that Young Griff/Faegon did........

Now THAT is a good point about Ashara trying to commit suicide, but survives.

I agree with you on the Ashara/Septa Lemore thing, and am not sold because it seems like it's pounding a square peg into a round hole to try and make the woman that Tyrion describes into Ashara.

If he noted "Aegons" identity even under his disguise, I find it remarkable he wouldn't have noted Asharas eye color, especially as they would be the same as Aegons.

Even if he noted a varying shade of purple between the two, I would think he'd say something.

Also, if everyone else is in disguise, why wouldn't Lemore be, and her hair is not actually dark, but dyed like everyone elses?

If Lemore is a Blackfyre and has silver hair herself, then the natural change would be to go dark.

And while Ashara might be "Dornish," she is still a highborn Lady from an ancient and proud House, so I think it's still a bit of a leap to picture her just stripping down in front of a bunch of men, particularly a stranger like Tyrion.

And refresh my memory, but do they know Tyrions identity at this point, because if they do, she seems pretty indifferent to him whereas if it was Ashara. I'd think she would recoil from him as a Lannister rather than react teasingly.

Her behavior is more like one from an environment where stripping down in front of men like that was just a matter of business as usual- say someone from a Lysene pleasure House.

Wiki Difinition of Serra: "Serra was the second wife of Illyrio Mopatis. She had blue eyes and golden hair streaked with silver"

And Serra would definitely fit more as being over forty whereas Ashara would be between thirty-two to thirty-five if she were between sixteen and twenty when she died.

[Queen Nymeria Martell]

Hello, I am new on this forum, and English is not my first language, so sorry for any mistake.

I am at this time a bit fascinated by R+L=J because of many theories that come to my mind. I try not to focus so much on Jon because of what might have happened to him, even though I think he will be very much alive in book 6. What makes me think all the time was the story behind R+L=J. I only began to think about Rhaegar and Lyanna when I read AGoT for the second time. It made no sense to me that a man like Rhaegar would kidnap and "rape" a girl like Lyanna. I do not have the time, right now, to search all the threads in search for this, but is there any theory explaining R+L other than kidnapping and eloping together? Because Lyanna does not seem to be a girl who would run away with a married man either. Do you think there might be something else concerning these two? I mean, maybe Lyanna was in danger and Rhaegar rescued her? Maybe all this was a trap for the Targaryens? After all so many people saw Rhaegar giving Lyanna the winter rose crown at the Tourney at Harrenhal...

Ned tells Arya that his sister and older brother had the "wolf blood" like Arya, and this fact had brought them an early death (or something similar). What could Lyanna have done to bring her an early death? Maybe being stubborn and never listening to her brother? I tend to look at Lyanna as a mix of Arya and Jon, Arya being so courageous and Jon being compassionate. It is a pity we do not know more about these characters (Rhaegar and Lyanna) as well as others that were involved, like Brandon Stark and Ashara Dayne.

Another question: do you think that maybe the "Come out and die" maybe was not related to Lyanna but was supposed to be after all the facts were known? How much time passed since the "kidnapping" story and the time Brandon goes to KL to apparently ask Rhaegar to fight him?

[Lord of Beyond the Wall]

Well I agree with you on her not being Jon's mother and her not having Rhaegar's child. So you think the child that was lost was Ned's?

Yes

[Alia of the knife]

Hello, I am new on this forum, and English is not my first language, so sorry for any mistake.

I am at this time a bit fascinated by R+L=J because of many theories that come to my mind. I try not to focus so much on Jon because of what might have happened to him, even though I think he will be very much alive in book 6. What makes me think all the time was the story behind R+L=J. I only began to think about Rhaegar and Lyanna when I read AGoT for the second time. It made no sense to me that a man like Rhaegar would kidnap and "rape" a girl like Lyanna. I do not have the time, right now, to search all the threads in search for this, but is there any theory explaining R+L other than kidnapping and eloping together? Because Lyanna does not seem to be a girl who would run away with a married man either. Do you think there might be something else concerning these two? I mean, maybe Lyanna was in danger and Rhaegar rescued her? Maybe all this was a trap for the Targaryens? After all so many people saw Rhaegar giving Lyanna the winter rose crown at the Tourney at Harrenhal...

Ned tells Arya that his sister and older brother had the "wolf blood" like Arya, and this fact had brought them an early death (or something similar). What could Lyanna have done to bring her an early death? Maybe being stubborn and never listening to her brother? I tend to look at Lyanna as a mix of Arya and Jon, Arya being so courageous and Jon being compassionate. It is a pity we do not know more about these characters (Rhaegar and Lyanna) as well as others that were involved, like Brandon Stark and Ashara Dayne.

Another question: do you think that maybe the "Come out and die" maybe was not related to Lyanna but was supposed to be after all the facts were known? How much time passed since the "kidnapping" story and the time Brandon goes to KL to apparently ask Rhaegar to fight him?

Welcome!

And don't worry about the language difference, I think people understand. :)

Also, good analysis of Lyannas personality. If you want really good, objective information and deeper analysis of "the Wolfs Blood," may I point you to another thread, "Ice and Fire Animal Project: Wolves."

It's actually founded on animal behavior, and given Martins use of certain animals as sigils or totems, I think those traits, and the imagry they invoke are significant, as I think the "wolfs blood" motif is a little misunderstood.

It was stated by Selmy that "Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna and thousands died for it." He then went on to compare love as opposed to duty as a sure poison.

I do think the love between them was mutual, but beyond that, I need more information from Martin on everything in between.

Some people think they eloped, though some information not related to the book, but a project associated with Martin stated that Rhaegar enlisted the aid of Dayne and Whent in taking Lyanna.

I believe that while she may have loved him, everything else to do with any relationship, she likely was just as conflicted as Rhaegar, struggling with that sense of honor.

[The God of Death]

I think this is a really good article that should leave anyone who reads it convinced that R+L=J

http://www.angelfire...es/faq/jon.html

RHAEGAR TARGARYEN AND LYANNA STARK

At first glance, this suggestion seems ludicrous. Rhaegar and Lyanna? There’s no direct evidence or personal claims to support this, as opposed to both Ashara Dayne and Wylla. Yet there are subtle, benign clues. Lots of them, in fact. And the more one looks at them, the more one is convinced that this could be the answer. The theory is a complicated one. First, the entire possible story will be given, in order for the reader to gain full understanding of the theory, and then I’ll provide various pieces of evidence for each portion of this hypothosis, complete with quotes and page numbers (and lots of ‘em!). Finally, I’ll ponder on why this could have happened.

1) The Story

Rhaegar Targaryen married Elia Martell, and fathered two children off her, Rhaenys and Aegon. Yet the marriage was political, and at the Harrenhal tourney in the year of the false spring, Rhaegar met his true love--Lyanna Stark. Together, the pair fell in love, and ran off together some time after, to the Tower of Joy in the Red Mountains of Dorne.

There, Rhaegar impregnated Lyanna. However, Rhaegar had to go leave to fight Robert, and three of the Kingsguard were sent to the Tower of Joy to protect Lyanna and her unborn child. Somehow, Eddard and his battle companions discovered Lyanna’s location. They assumed that Lyanna was abducted by Rhaegar, and did not join him by her own free will.

Eddard and the northmen reach the Tower of Joy, and battle ensues with the Kingsguard. At the end, only Eddard and the crannogman Howland Reed are left alive. Eddard enters the tower to find Lyanna. She has given birth to the baby, but, due to complications of childbirth, she is dying. She makes Eddard promise not to reveal the child’s true parentage to anyone, lest Robert’s hatred of Targaryens lead him to kill the child. Then she dies.

Eddard names the child Jon. He, Jon and possibly Howland all ride to Starfall, to return the greatsword Dawn which used to belong to Arthur Dayne until he was killed in the fighting. There, perhaps Eddard and Wylla conspire to pretend Wylla is Jon’s mother, to protect Jon. Also, Ashara kills herself (for the possible reasons, see above).

Eddard then rides north with Jon, claiming the son is his and Wylla’s to protect Jon from Robert’s Targaryen hatred.

2) The Evidence

a) Rhaegar’s Personality--True Love With Lyanna?

At the beginning of the series, the reader comes off with a general disliking of Rhaegar Targaryen. However, most opinions about Rhaegar comes from Robert. While Robert makes Rhaegar out to be an evil man and a rapist, this could be because Rhaegar stole away Lyanna, Robert’s true love. Clearly, no other character has this dislike for Rhaegar, and most other characters seems to repsect and adore him. Just a brief selection:

He {Ned} wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels. Somehow he thought not. --GoT, pg. 381.

The knight {Jorah} gave her a curious look. “You are your brother’s sister, in truth.”

“Viserys?” She {Dany} did not understand.

"No,” he answered. “Rhaegar.”--GoT, pg.668

{Dany said,} “There is some good to be said of my father, surely?”

“There is, Your Grace. Of him, and those who came before him. Your grandfather Jaehaerys and his brother, their father Aegon, you mother...and Rhaegar. Him most of all.” --SoS, pg. 815

So it appears that Eddard, Jorah and Barristan all disagree with Robert and think that Rhaegar was a fine, upstanding citizen...hardly the sort of man who would abduct a young girl against her will. Perhaps even Robert realizes this:

Confused, the king shook his head. “Rhaegar...Rhaegar won, damn him. I killed him, Ned, I drove that spike right through his black armor into his black heart and he died at my feet...Yet somehow he still won. He has Lyanna now, and I have her.”--GoT, pg. 430

The quote might possibly be interpreted as Robert admitting that Lyanna went willingly with Rhaegar. For this seems like a likely possibility--Lyanna fell in love with Rhaegar, and went off with him. We know she had no great love for Robert:

“Robert will never keep to one bed,” Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm’s End. “I hear he has gotten a child on some young girl in the Vale.” Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. “Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man’s nature.”--GoT, pg. 379

So clearly Lyanna did not truly love Robert, and Rhaegar was not the evil man who Robert made him out to be. So it seems likely that the pair fell in love, and we have some proof to support this. For example, at the tourney at Harrenhal in the year of the false spring, Rhaegar won the jousting contest. But instead of crowning his own wife Elia the queen of love and beauty, he crowned Lyanna (SoS, pg. 486). Ned reflects on this while hallucinating:

Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty’s laurel in Lyanna’s lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, as blue as frost.

Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals, the thorns lay hidden...

--GoT, pg. 631

This is obviously a significant moment, for Eddard to remember it while locked in a cell. And we have another reference to Lyanna falling for Rhaegar at the Harrenhal tourney, from Meera’s story about the Knight of the Laughing Tree:

“The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle, but when her pup brother teased her for crying she poured wine over his head.”

--SoS, pg. 281

The dragon prince is Rhaegar; the wolf maid is Lyanna. It certainly seems implied that she is falling in love with him. And another hint from Meera:

“And the mystery knight should defeat all challengers and name the wolf maid the queen of love and beauty.”

“She was,” said Meera. “But that’s a sadder story.”

--SoS, pg. 283

And then we have several other references which are ambiguous, almost deliberately so:

Yet sometimes Dany would picture it the way it had been...Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved...

---GoT, pg. 30

And when Dany sees visions in the House of the Undying:

Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman’s name...

---CoK, pg. 706

In both these quotes, GRRM avoids using the word ‘Elia’ and instead uses ‘the woman’ or ‘the woman he loved’ suggesting that it could be someone besides Elia...Lyanna, perhaps?

B) The Kingsguard, the Tower of Joy and Lyanna’s Death.

On page 424 of Game of Thrones, Eddard is dreaming while under the influence of the milk of the poppy for his injured leg. During this time, he has a dream about his fight with the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy. GRRM has stated that this dream is not completely literal (Ned was dreaming, after all) but some basic facts can be gleaned from it.

One is that three men of the Kingsguard, Ser Arthur Dayne, Ser Gerold Hightower, and Ser Oswell Whent, were present at the Tower of Joy. This is curious since, as far as the reader knows, there is no royal blood present at the Tower of Joy--just Lyanna. Then why are they there, instead of with Viserys or Daenerys? (Rhaegar and Aerys are dead by this time.)

The obvious reason is, of course, that Lyanna is carrying Rhaegar’s baby, and the Kingsguard are there to protect that portion of the royal blood. But would Rhaegar trust these men with such a secret? Probably. Barristan told Dany that Rhaegar’s oldest and truest friend was Arthur Dayne (SoS, pg. 90), so he was probably just the man to trust with such a secret.

The Kingsguard evidentally had an effect on Eddard. On GoT, pg. 502, just the sight of three men in white cloaks sends a chill through him.

Then there comes the curious matter of Lyanna’s death. From Eddard’s thoughts on GoT, pg. 43, we learn that she died of a fever, in a room that smelled of ‘blood and roses.’ Since the fighting took place outside the tower,. we can theorize that the blood came from Lyanna’s childbirth. We know the blood came from Lyanna, because on GoT, pg. 424, Eddard remembers ‘Lyanna in her bed of blood.’ Her bed of blood--the blood came from her, and blood is not usually the effect of a fever. And GRRM has been known to liken this term to birthing--on GoT, pg. 674, Mirri Maz Duur says she knows the secrets of the ‘bloody bed,’ meaning birthing.

c) “Promise Me, Ned”

“I was with her when she died,” Ned reminded the king. “She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father.” He could still hear her at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave his word, the fear had gone out of his sister’s eyes.

---GoT, pg. 43

From the quote above, Eddard implies that his promise to Lyanna was to bury her at Winterfell. However, he recalls the quote throughout the book at the strangest times and places, suggesting that the promise meant something more. From above, the simple phrase ‘the fear had gone out of his sister’s eyes’ suggests that the promise is something deeper--why should she be so scared about where she is buried? It has been suggested that what Eddard was really promising was to keep Jon’s identity a secret, and this can be supported by the manner in which he recalls Lyanna’s words.

“You avenged Lyanna at the Trident,” Ned said, halting beside the king. Promise me, Ned, she had whispered.

--GoT, pg. 116

This quote could be explained away by the fact that Eddard referred to Lyanna. But Robert killing Rhaegar doesn’t have much to do with anything if Ned promised to bury Lyanna at Winterfell. The quote fits better if Ned’s promise was concerning Jon, because it would fit with Robert’s hatred of Targaryens.

He remembered Rhaegar’s infant son, the red ruin of his skull, and the way the king had turned away, as he had turned away in Darry’s audience hall not so long ago. He could still hear Sansa pleading, as Lyanna had pleaded once.

---GoT, pg. 199

Now this is interesting. Why in the world would Eddard compare Sansa pleading for Lady’s life to Lyanna pleading to be buried in Winterfell--especially in the context of Robert’s hatred of Targaryens? This references makes absolutely no sense unless one accepts that Lyanna was pleading to keep Jon’s identity secret from Robert.

“I will,” Ned promised her. That was his curse. Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he made to Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he’d paid to keep them.

--GoT, pg. 380

Again, this doesn’t make much sense in the context of Ned promising Lyanna to bury her at Winterfell. What price would he had to have paid to do this? If the promise concerned Jon, on the other hand, the quote makes sense. Ned has certainly paid a price by claiming Jon is his own son, especially with Catelyn.

The next quote comes from Eddard’s dream:

“Promise me, Ned,” Lyanna’s statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood.

--GoT, pg. 501

Eddard seems to have a lot of violent and troubled dreams concerning his promise to Lyanna. Why? It seems unnatural for him to place that much importance on simply burying her at Winterfell.

“Eat the bastard. Don’t care if you choke on him. Promise me, Ned.” {said Robert.}

“I promise.” “Promise me, Ned,” Lyanna’s voice echoed.

--GoT, pg. 505

This quote can simply be attributed to Eddard likening his promises to Robert on his deathbed to his promises to Lyanna on hers.

So with so many references to these promises, if seems like they were very important in Eddard’s mind; certainly more important than ensuring Lyanna was buried at Winterfell. They could very well be about Jon; if not, then of something of equal importance.

d) Blue Winter Roses

Along with ‘Promise me, Ned,’ Eddard also remembers blue roses at the strangest times. This can also be attribuited to Lyanna. She loved the smell of blue winter roses. (GoT, pg. 631) And the crown for the queen of love and beauty that Rhaegar tossed her was made of the flower. (GoT, pg. 631). Of course, Ned’s references to blue roses could just be due to his grief over how Lyanna died, but they could mean something more...

Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned...Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black...”I bring her flowers when I can,”{Ned} said. “Lyanna was...fond of flowers.”

--GoT, pg. 43

The room in which Lyanna died smelled of roses, and she held some in her hand. Interesting. If Rhaegar knew that they were her favorite flower, he could have been trying to make her happy.

As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. “Eddard!” she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

--GoT, pg. 425

Her {Cersei’s} eyes burned, green fire in the dusk, like the lioness that was her sigil. “The night of our wedding feast, the first time we shared a bed, he called me by your sister’s name. He was on top of me, in me, stinking of wine, and he whispered Lyanna.”

Ned thought of pale blue roses, and for a moment he wanted to weep.

--GoT, pg. 480

“Promise me, Ned,” Lyanna’s statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood.

--GoT, pg. 501

The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna.

--CoK, pg. 809

The real clincher comes with a vision Dany has in the House of the Undying.

A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness.

--CoK, pg. 707

This quote strongly implies that Lyanna’s blue roses have something to do with the Wall (the ‘wall of ice’) This makes perfect sense because Jon, the product of Lyanna and her blue roses, is on the Wall.

One more final clue comes on CoK, pg. 746. Ygritte tells Jon a story about Bael the Bard. Bael picked a blue winter rose from Winterfell’s greenhouse unasked; a year later, he returned the son he fathered off Lord Stark’s daughter in payment for that rose. Since Rhaegar is known to be a great fan of music and songs, it is likely that he heard this story, and was fulfilling his romantic outlook on life by imitating Bael in the blue roses.

e) Lies, Broken Promises and Troubled Dreams

Since Eddard is described as an honorable man, one would think that he would feel guilty over the fact that he is lying to the world about Jon’s parentage. Well, he certainly feels guilty over something. Throughout the book, there are numerous references to the fact that he feels guilty for telling lies. These lies most likely have to do with Jon or something as equally serious.

Troubled sleep was no stranger to him {Ned}. He had lived lies for fourteen years, yet they still haunted him at night.

--GoT, pg. 115

Since Jon is fourteen years old at this time, this strongly implies that Eddard’s fourteen years of lies are about Jon. The fact that they still haunt him at night fits in with Eddard’s dreams about blue roses and the Tower of Joy.

“She whined and looked at me and a felt so ‘shamed, but it was right, wasn’t it? The queen would have killed her.”

“It was right,” her father said. “And even the lie was...not without honor.”

--GoT, pg. 222

Eddard could easily be comparing Arya’s honorable lies to his own.

Some secrets are safer kept hidden. So secrets are too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust. {Ned thought}

--GoT, pg. 357

This seems to imply that Ned has secrets of his own.

The rain had driven everyone under their roofs. It beat down on Ned’s head, warm and relentless as old guilts.

--GoT, pg. 379

The deceit made him {Ned} feel soiled. The lies we tell for love, he thought. May the gods forgive me.

--GoT, pg. 504

All these above quotes seen to suggest that Eddard has been lying about something for fourteen years. If not Jon, then what? There are probably other options, but Jon seems the most likely at this point.

f) Thoughts Concerning Jon

Most of the above quotes had to do with pointing evidence at Lyanna or Rhaegar. However, a sizeable number of quotes do suggest that Jon is mroe than just a normal bastard boy. For one, Eddard never seems to refer to Jon as his son, which is interesting.

“Never ask me about Jon,” he said, cold as ice. “He is my blood, and that is all you need to know.”

--GoT, pg. 65

Note that Eddard calls Jon ‘my blood,’ not ‘my son.’ This could be a hint that Eddard is still trying to tell as much truth as possible, because Jon is still his nephew if he is Lyanna’s son. And then, on GoT, pg. 486:

Ned thought, If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do? Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon’s life, against the children of her body. He did not know. He prayed he never would.

Eddard lists off all his children in his mind, but conviently does not include Jon on the list. Interesting.

Eddard then has some more thoughts about Jon while locked in a cell underneath the Red Keep, waiting to die.

The thought of Jon filled Ned with a sense of shame, a sorrow too deep for words. If only he could see the boy again, sit and talk with him...

--GoT, pg. 635

Why, out of all his children, does Eddard want to talk with Jon before he dies? Could he finally want to reveal to him the secret of his parentage? Of course, Ned could be wanting to do this even if Jon’s mother was someone else, so this quote does not just apply to the Lyanna-Rhaegar scenario. Two pages earlier, Eddard asks Varys if he would deliver a letter. Perhaps Eddard wanted to put the secret of Jon’s mother in that letter for Varys to deliver.

Bran has an interesting dream which may add to the evidence.

“I dreamed about the crow last night. The one with three eyes. He flew into my bedchamber and told me to come with him, so I did. We went down to the crypts. Father was there, and we talked. He was sad.”

“And why was that?” Luwin peered through his tube.

“It was something to do about Jon, I think.” The dream had been deeply disturbing, more so that any of the other crow dreams.

--GoT, pg. 730

In the series thus far, most characters’ dreams have hinted at being prophetic or somewhat magical. The fact that Eddard was trying to tell Bran that there was something about Jon in the crypts may suggest that a secret about Jon is down there--near Lyanna’s statue, maybe?

Jon has a similar dream:

“I’m walking down this long empty hall...opening doors, shouting names...the castle is always empty...the stables are full of bones. That always scares me. I start to run, then, throwing open doors, climbing the tower three steps at a time, screaming for someone, for anyone. And then I find myself in front of the door to the crypts. It’s black inside, and I can see the steps spiraling down. Somehow I know I have to go down there, but I don’t want to. I’m afraid of what might be waiting for me...I scream that I’m not a Stark, that this isn’t my place, but it’s no good, I have to go down anyway, so I start down, feeling the walls as I descend, with no torch to light the way. It gets darker and darker, until I want to scream...that’s when I always wake.”

--GoT, pg. 267

This also seems to hint that Jon also has some sort of destiny in the crypts--again, perhaps his heritage? One more thing seems to hint at Jon’s parents:

“King,” croaked the raven. The bird flapped across the air to land on Mormont’s shoulder. “King,” it said again, strutting back and forth.

“He likes that word,” Jon said, smiling.

“An easy word to say. An easy word to like.”

“King,” the bird said again.

“I think he means for you to have a crown, my lord.”

“The realm has three kings already, and that’s two too many for my liking.” Mormont striked the raven under the beak with his finger, but all the while his eyes never left Jon Snow.

--CoK, pg. 105

This could be the random spoutings of a raven. Or it could be a subtle clue that Jon, as the only surviving son of Rhaegar, would be the king of Westeros if the Targaryens still reigned.

Yet another possible clue comes in the physical appearances of the characters. It has been stated numerous times throughout the series that Jon and Arya are similar in physical appearance. Arya is also often compared to Lyanna, such as Eddard's statement on GoT, pg. 221. Through logical sequence, Lyanna is indirectly being compared to Jon. (Lyanna looks like Arya and Arya looks like Jon.)

As one last tidbit of evidence, it can be said that if Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, it fits with the series name ‘A Song of Ice and Fire.’ Jon seems to be shaping as the main character, and it woudl fit the series title if his parents were Rhaegar (fire) and Lyanna (ice).

[Jon Icefyre]

I think this is a really good article that should leave anyone who reads it convinced that R+L=J

http://www.angelfire...es/faq/jon.html

Snip.....

Ya I've read this specific article numerous times and I think it's by far one of the most elegant and descriptive explanations of why R+L=J. :bowdown:

[Ygrain]

You just need to connect the dots

Connect them, then - Barristan is remarkably respectful of the guy who deflowered the noble maiden whom Barristan had a crush on, don't you think so? Especially given the fact that she may have committed suicide because of the relationship.

Hello, I am new on this forum, and English is not my first language, so sorry for any mistake.

I am at this time a bit fascinated by R+L=J because of many theories that come to my mind. I try not to focus so much on Jon because of what might have happened to him, even though I think he will be very much alive in book 6. What makes me think all the time was the story behind R+L=J. I only began to think about Rhaegar and Lyanna when I read AGoT for the second time. It made no sense to me that a man like Rhaegar would kidnap and "rape" a girl like Lyanna. I do not have the time, right now, to search all the threads in search for this, but is there any theory explaining R+L other than kidnapping and eloping together? Because Lyanna does not seem to be a girl who would run away with a married man either. Do you think there might be something else concerning these two? I mean, maybe Lyanna was in danger and Rhaegar rescued her? Maybe all this was a trap for the Targaryens? After all so many people saw Rhaegar giving Lyanna the winter rose crown at the Tourney at Harrenhal...

Ned tells Arya that his sister and older brother had the "wolf blood" like Arya, and this fact had brought them an early death (or something similar). What could Lyanna have done to bring her an early death? Maybe being stubborn and never listening to her brother? I tend to look at Lyanna as a mix of Arya and Jon, Arya being so courageous and Jon being compassionate. It is a pity we do not know more about these characters (Rhaegar and Lyanna) as well as others that were involved, like Brandon Stark and Ashara Dayne.

Another question: do you think that maybe the "Come out and die" maybe was not related to Lyanna but was supposed to be after all the facts were known? How much time passed since the "kidnapping" story and the time Brandon goes to KL to apparently ask Rhaegar to fight him?

Hello and welcome to the forums :-)

I think (though Alia will disagree with me :-) ) that the "wolf blood which led her to an early grave) is a reference to a rash action on Lyanna's part, such as running away with Rhaegar. I believe that the supposed moral issue with that would have been solved by polygamous marriage between the two, most probably performed before a weirwood. Just recently, it was discussed that Dany musing how Rhaegar took his northern girl at swordpoint and wishing that Daario did the same with her prior her wedding to Hizdahr might be a parallel for Rhaegar preventing Lyanna's unwanted marriage to Robert.

Come out and die is almost certainly related to Lyanna, but I've always found it curious how eager Brandon is to kill Rhaegar but doesn't seem to give a shit about the supposedly kidnapped and raped sister. Some of us think that it means that he knew bloody well that they eloped, and went after Rhaegar in righteous wrath to avenge the smirch on the family honour.

[FrozenFire3]

Two new additions to our little list of cast interviews regardig Jon's ancestry (http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/85106-rlj-v47/page__st__20#entry4325654):

Joe Dempsie (http://www.vulture.com/2013/05/game-of-thrones-gendry-joe-dempsie-interview.html)

For me, there's something about Jon Snow and his arc, and I don't know his true parentage, but I have an idea — I really don't want to say who — and there's something about the way it's been set up that makes me think he's destined for something really great. I envision Jon Snow ending up on the Iron Throne.

Kit Harington (http://www.accesshollywood.com/game-of-thrones-qanda-kit-harington-talks-snl-sketches-climbing-the-wall-and-jons-love-for-ygritte_article_79283)

I’d love to know who Jon’s parents are. It’s one of those things that I always get asked and, I’m like, 'I just don’t know, I’m sorry.'

Emphasis on the word parents ;)

[finger]

I actually think she was but the point is Edric Dayne tells Arya that Wylla was also Jon's mother. Which means that Ned would have supposedly been 'in love' with Ashara and yet had impregnated Wylla....Ya something about Edric's story doesn't really add up.....

Lost in the details,as usual. Most things in this series happen for some reason, normally hidden behind a shaggy dog chasing a red herring.

Ned Dayne tlaks to Arya Stark, about former stories concerning their families.

Appearance: Ned Stark had killed Arthur Dayne and had something to do with Ashara's suicide.

Logic: the atmosphere should be ackward, and Ned D should have never been dubbed Ned.

Facts: the conversation was friendly and Edrid was dubbed Ned indeed.

(Hint: add Ned S sadness for having to kill Arthur in a situation when he should be blood thirsty)

Consecuence: the apparent logic is a deceit; there must be hidden facts waiting to be disclosed. But I'm not sure we can do it; it'll take a good deal of speculation and using of imagination.

[finger]

But i don't believe she is Jon mother and neither had Rhaegar's child. She had an affair, lost her child and committed suicide, there's nothing more in that story.

It doesn't work. It'd be such an inmaterial character. Why should she draw that attention.

If it were all her arc, Meera wouldn't have even mentioned her. Clearly, she has more role to play, IMO.

(I'll have to open a thread, definitely)

[finger]

Fixed that for you. :P

Contrary to popular opinion, its not 'resistance to different ideas' thats an issue with this thread, its the abominable arguments that have either facts wrong or gaping chasms of logic that nearly always go along with different ideas. And frequently, the utter obtuseness displayed by people desparately trying to argue those wrong facts and gaping chasms.

Always consider the sources.

Meera's story actually says nothing about a relationship. It says Ned was shy. Not even shy of Ashara, just shy. And it says that Brandon asked her to dance with Ned and she did, along with a lot of other people.

Then Ned Dayne, who wasn't actually born at the time, doesn;t have a clue and tells a garbled story about how Ned loved Ashara, but Wylla is Jon's mother, with Ned. Then consider Allyria. These events happened nearly 20 years ago by now. Allyria Dayne has been betrothed to Lord Beric Dondarrion for 6 years or more already Beric is in mis early-mid twenties, and a Lord, plenty old enough for marriage and with no restrictions at his end. So why such a long engagement and no marriage yet? The usual reason is the youth of the bride. And for Allyria to be old enough to have actually understood what was going on around her, relationships etc, 20 years ago, then she must be at least 28-30 by now, practically an old maid! Chances are Allyria was eitheir an infant or not yet even borne when Ashara supposedly committed suicide, so she doesn;t actually know what she's talking about either.

The you have Cersei, who wasn't at Harrenhal and had nothing to do with Ned or Ashara at that stage, so also doesn't actually know anything. She's just putting together the facts that Ned came away from Starfall with a bastard and Ashara committed suicide and coming up with N+A=J.

Same with the Winterfell rumours that Catelyn hears and Harren(?) tells Arya. Those peopel weren't present, and are connecting the same dots Cersei did.

Even Selmy. He was at Harrenhal and probably has a fairly good idea about what happened there - he was in love with Ashara Dayne and probably paying close attention to her, and clearly knows she was dishonoured and looked to a Stark. But he is highly unlikely to actually know about the still-born child - thats just something he's been told and has no reason not to believe, as he wouldn't have been present at a birth in Starfall, and even to himself he is only speculating at why she might have committed suicide, thinking over possible reasons, not 'reasons he knows she had'.

So what?

Is all that to say that Ned Dayne wasn't well informed?

Have you got anything to add or you only dismiss other people's comments?

[finger]

Connect them, then - Barristan is remarkably respectful of the guy who deflowered the noble maiden whom Barristan had a crush on, don't you think so? Especially given the fact that she may have committed suicide because of the relationship.

Hello and welcome to the forums :-)

I think (though Alia will disagree with me :-) ) that the "wolf blood which led her to an early grave) is a reference to a rash action on Lyanna's part, such as running away with Rhaegar. I believe that the supposed moral issue with that would have been solved by polygamous marriage between the two, most probably performed before a weirwood. Just recently, it was discussed that Dany musing how Rhaegar took his northern girl at swordpoint and wishing that Daario did the same with her prior her wedding to Hizdahr might be a parallel for Rhaegar preventing Lyanna's unwanted marriage to Robert.

Come out and die is almost certainly related to Lyanna, but I've always found it curious how eager Brandon is to kill Rhaegar but doesn't seem to give a shit about the supposedly kidnapped and raped sister. Some of us think that it means that he knew bloody well that they eloped, and went after Rhaegar in righteous wrath to avenge the smirch on the family honour.

Are you hinting Ashara gave birth to a Targ?

Do you have any doubt that L mastered the plot? R just obliged, prepared some minor details, took the blame,... It's always the same, but you women refuse to recognize it.

Never forget Brandon was a gallant fool. I dare say more fool than gallant.

Eta: Dany wished Daario to do whatever. What did Daario? Always. Beforewards, she had taken Drogo by the briddle. Always.

[Ygrain]

Lost in the details,as usual. Most things in this series happen for some reason, normally hidden behind a shaggy dog chasing a red herring.

Ned Dayne tlaks to Arya Stark, about former stories concerning their families.

Appearance: Ned Stark had killed Arthur Dayne and had something to do with Ashara's suicide.

Logic: the atmosphere should be ackward, and Ned D should have never been dubbed Ned.

Facts: the conversation was friendly and Edrid was dubbed Ned indeed.

(Hint: add Ned S sadness for having to kill Arthur in a situation when he should be blood thirsty)

Consecuence: the apparent logic is a deceit; there must be hidden facts waiting to be disclosed. But I'm not sure we can do it; it'll take a good deal of speculation and using of imagination.

If two people's names share a common root (Ed-, in this case), it doesn't mean that they were named after each other, and the common root may lead to the same nick, again without the two people having anything in common. The connection may and may not be there and basing some logical deduction on it is rather unsafe.

It doesn't work. I'd be such an inmaterial character. Why should she drawn that attention.

If it were all her arc, Meera wouldn't have even mentioned her. Clearly, she has more role to play, IMO.

(I'll have to open a thread, definitely)

Oh, if Ned had a crush on her but she was dishonoured by Brandon, and Ned had to give up all hopes later because he had to do his duty and marry Catelyn, she would be a substantial part of his background story, not immaterial.

Are you hinting Ashara gave birth to a Targ?

Do you have any doubt that L mastered the plot? R just obliged, prepared some minor details, took the blame,... It's always the same, but you women refuse to recognize it.

Never forget Brandon was a gallant fool. I dare say more fool than gallant.

Eta: Dany wished Daario to do whatever. What did Daario? Always. Beforewards, she had taken Drogo by the briddle. Always.

Huh? No - I'm implying that I don't see Barristan having so much respect for Ned if Ned was the man who dishonoured her.

[finger]

If two people's names share a common root (Ed-, in this case), it doesn't mean that they were named after each other, and the common root may lead to the same nick, again without the two people having anything in common. The connection may and may not be there and basing some logical deduction on it is rather unsafe.

Oh, if Ned had a crush on her but she was dishonoured by Brandon, and Ned had to give up all hopes later because he had to do his duty and marry Catelyn, she would be a substantial part of his background story, not immaterial.

Huh? No - I'm implying that I don't see Barristan having so much respect for Ned if Ned was the man who dishonoured her.

Let me see. A Ned kills Arthur and is responsible for Ashara's suicide (at least he's involved) and then their brother names his son and heir Edric so that they can dub him Ned. And you don't find any reason to be surprised or skeptical. Well, if you don't find it, you don't find it.

Suppose all you say about Ashara actually happened. Is it reason enough to remember her 15 years after a war when thousands people died? I don't think so. She could have been forgotten.

I'm convinced that something is hidden, and we'll know.

[Maxpey]

Two new additions to our little list of cast interviews regardig Jon's ancestry (http://asoiaf.wester...20#entry4325654):

Joe Dempsie (http://www.vulture.c...-interview.html)

For me, there's something about Jon Snow and his arc, and I don't know his true parentage, but I have an idea — I really don't want to say who — and there's something about the way it's been set up that makes me think he's destined for something really great. I envision Jon Snow ending up on the Iron Throne.

Kit Harington (http://www.accesshol...e_article_79283)

I’d love to know who Jon’s parents are. It’s one of those things that I always get asked and, I’m like, 'I just don’t know, I’m sorry.'

Emphasis on the word parents ;)

The people connected to the story, outside of GRRM, are not really doing a good job keeping R + L = J a secret, are they? :)

[Jon Icefyre]

Lost in the details,as usual. Most things in this series happen for some reason, normally hidden behind a shaggy dog chasing a red herring.

Ned Dayne tlaks to Arya Stark, about former stories concerning their families.

Appearance: Ned Stark had killed Arthur Dayne and had something to do with Ashara's suicide.

Logic: the atmosphere should be ackward, and Ned D should have never been dubbed Ned.

Facts: the conversation was friendly and Edrid was dubbed Ned indeed.

(Hint: add Ned S sadness for having to kill Arthur in a situation when he should be blood thirsty)

Consecuence: the apparent logic is a deceit; there must be hidden facts waiting to be disclosed. But I'm not sure we can do it; it'll take a good deal of speculation and using of imagination.

Please, this is about as meaningless as ppl thinking Ned named Jon Snow after Jon Connington.......

[Jon Icefyre]

Suppose all you say about Ashara actually happened. Is it reason enough to remember her 15 years after a war when thousands people died? I don't think so. She could have been forgotten.

I'm convinced that something is hidden, and we'll know.

Funny Ned has no thoughts whatsoever about Ashara in any of his POVs.....

[Jon Icefyre]

Now THAT is a good point about Ashara trying to commit suicide, but survives.

I agree with you on the Ashara/Septa Lemore thing, and am not sold because it seems like it's pounding a square peg into a round hole to try and make the woman that Tyrion describes into Ashara.

If he noted "Aegons" identity even under his disguise, I find it remarkable he wouldn't have noted Asharas eye color, especially as they would be the same as Aegons.

Even if he noted a varying shade of purple between the two, I would think he'd say something.

Also, if everyone else is in disguise, why wouldn't Lemore be, and her hair is not actually dark, but dyed like everyone elses?

If Lemore is a Blackfyre and has silver hair herself, then the natural change would be to go dark.

And while Ashara might be "Dornish," she is still a highborn Lady from an ancient and proud House, so I think it's still a bit of a leap to picture her just stripping down in front of a bunch of men, particularly a stranger like Tyrion.

And refresh my memory, but do they know Tyrions identity at this point, because if they do, she seems pretty indifferent to him whereas if it was Ashara. I'd think she would recoil from him as a Lannister rather than react teasingly.

Her behavior is more like one from an environment where stripping down in front of men like that was just a matter of business as usual- say someone from a Lysene pleasure House.

Wiki Difinition of Serra: "Serra was the second wife of Illyrio Mopatis. She had blue eyes and golden hair streaked with silver"

And Serra would definitely fit more as being over forty whereas Ashara would be between thirty-two to thirty-five if she were between sixteen and twenty when she died.

:agree: You bring up some great points, especially about Serra. I'm way more inclined to think Young Griff/Faegon is a Blackfyre than some secrete Ashara Targ child and certainly not Rhaegar's....The idea that Ashara and Rhaegar had a child is beyond ridiculous and has no merit whatsoever....

[Maxpey]

Funny Ned has no thoughts whatsoever about Ashara in any of his POVs.....

I have always had a little bit of a problem with using a characters "selective memory syndrome" as evidence for or against something.

For example, when Ned hears that Robert is dead, the first thing Ned thinks is that Stannis is the rightful heir.

After hearing that Robert is dead, wouldn't you think Jon would cross Ned's mind, if only for a fleeting moment? Yet he doesn't.

That doesn't mean that R + L = J isn't true; GRRM provides other clues that clearly support the theory.

I think GRRM may have been doing the same thing with the theory that Ned and Ashara were in love; the clues come from places other than Ned's own thoughts.