Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Maia

Surprising Lannister ancestor?

Recommended Posts

What if Tywin's father was a Blackfyre? We know one of the Lords who swore fealty to the Black Dragon when Daemon Blackfyre rebelled against the Iron Throne was Robb Reyne. If Tytos' wife was a Reyne, and since he wasn't the sharpest knife in the kitchen, it wouldn't be strange that she cheated on him with a Blackfyre. It would explain plenty of things, such as Cersei's obsession with wildfire, Tygett and Jaime's fighting skills (although Lannisters are regarded as cunning, there isn't any other great Lannister warrior that we know about... and Daemon Blackfyre fought "like the Warrior himself"), Tywin's arguments with Aerys, Tywin's ambition, even Tywin's role as hand (another Blackfyre, Bloodraven, was Hand of the King, and a competent one even though he was loathed, just like Tywin after the Sack of King's Landing)...

If Aerys knew about it, it would also explain why he didn't want Rhaegar to marry Cersei, because she regarded her as an "unsuitable match". And we know Rhaegar treated Jaime well, probably because he knew too, and was far more concerned with prophecies than his father was, and he saw Blackfyres as the same as the Targaryens, fire, or call it what you want.

What do you think?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So do we think this will have any relevance to plot or just be some kind of tit-bit that adds to backstory?

And on a tangent, any nominations for Dunk descendents other than Brienne? I was thinking Pod is a possible: inarticulate, stubborn, loyal and wants to fight.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As lojzelote says, "surprising ancestor" does not mean "secret ancestor". The book is written from the perspective of an Oldtown maester. It will report "the public knowledge", not the "secret truth".

Some of those suggestions do not hold water. Blackfyre is impossible. Reynes or Tarbecks are very unlikely. For Starks or Greyjoys there are long odds. There are countless possibilities that would not require big stretches: House Arryn, House Martell, House Tarly, House Tarth, ...

And on a tangent, any nominations for Dunk descendents other than Brienne?

Why would you look for others?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the other Great Houses are very unlikely in recent history. Targaryen or Baratheon would have been bought up in regards to Joffrey and Tommen's claim to the throne, Stark or Tully in regards to the WOTFK, Tyrell on account of the weddings to Margaery and Martell because of the recent feud between Dorne and the Lannisters. Likewise I think Reyne/Tarbeck should have been mentioned when talking about the fall of House Reyne. Tywin being related to a commoner to any degree of closeness would be remarked upon a lot.

Of the Great Houses that leaves Greyjoy or Arryn as an option. Given Greyjoy relations with the other houses I'd say Arryn is more likely as Tywin's mother or grand parents. It's something which feasibly wouldn't have been mentioned and would be a good match for a Lannister.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If the recent generation was closely related to House Arryn, this would have been a major issue by now. In fact, considering that Jon Arryn and his two siblings are even older than Tywin, the Arryn marrying Lord Tytos could very well have been their aunt. And then Lord Tywin would do anything in his power to secure the Eyrie and the Vale for himself and his children despite the fact that Harry the Heir would technically come before him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If the recent generation was closely related to House Arryn, this would have been a major issue by now. In fact, considering that Jon Arryn and his two siblings are even older than Tywin, the Arryn marrying Lord Tytos could very well have been their aunt. And then Lord Tywin would do anything in his power to secure the Eyrie and the Vale for himself and his children despite the fact that Harry the Heir would technically come before him.

I don't really see why Tywin would be so desperate to secure the Vale for his own children. In peace time that would just be starting unnecessary trouble and during the WOTFK it would be possibly aggravating a powerful neutral party into siding with the Starks (Though all that likely would have been mentioned.). And it wouldn't have been such an issue if it was one of Tytos' parents who was an Arryn. Tywin is nothing but pragmatic - he'd be stupid to try and claim the Vale for himself (potentially causing civil war) just because a grandparent was a lesser member of House Arryn. So I can see Tywin's grandmother potentially being an Arryn, without it being mentioned or having any political impact in the books.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Whatever happens, I am sure many of us will exclaim "oh, the irony" (in the light of present story). GrrM loves him some irony. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can see it being a Baratheon, since we saw that Jon Arryn and Ned saw that whenever stags married lions, the offspring came black of hair :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I thought the reference just referred to one of the Lannister Kings of old (My money is on Tommen II) who was super awesome in a very unTywinesque way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can see it being a Baratheon, since we saw that Jon Arryn and Ned saw that whenever stags married lions, the offspring came black of hair :D

Not if it's a recent ancestor to any degree. That would surely have come up in regards to Joff's legitimacy.

i.e Even if he's not a Baratheon he still has Baratheon blood through his great grandfather etc. etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But Tywin would not try to get the Vale back into the Realm through Littlefinger and Lysa, he would rather try to use his own kinship to House Arryn to get Lysa to do what he wants. And upon Jon Arryn's death he would have tried to seize the Regency of the Vale. He never tried to do such a thing, in fact, everything indicates that Jon Arryn and Tywin Lannister were not related. Jon was the one who convinced Robert to marry Cersei. If Tywin was part Arryn Jon himself would have had close enough ties to House Lannister to get Tywin to join the Rebellion and/or a marriage between Cersei and Robert would not have been necessary after the war to secure the allegiance of House Lannister.

The two Great Houses Tywin was somewhat close to were Martell (until Lady Joanna died) and House Tully - Tywin wanted to marry Jaime to Lysa. He had no particular strong connections to the Tyrells, Baratheons, Arryns, Starks, or Greyjoys.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If Tywin was part Arryn Jon himself would have had close enough ties to House Lannister to get Tywin to join the Rebellion

Tywin couldn't join the rebellion because Aerys would have killed Jaime if he did. Being related to Arryns wouldn't have changed that, though, I agree, it should have come up at some point.

Cersei was also the most fitting match for Robert at the time, because no other Great House had a daughter of marriageable age and theoretically it should have tied the Westerlands into the North-Vale-Riverlands-Stormlands block, ensuring stability of the new dynasty for the next generation or 2.

Not if it's a recent ancestor to any degree. That would surely have come up in regards to Joff's legitimacy.

i.e Even if he's not a Baratheon he still has Baratheon blood through his great grandfather etc. etc.

This might still come up? I mean, Jon Arryn didn't go to Robert and only gave cryptic reference in delirium. Maybe it was because being more realistic and politically-minded than Ned he knew that it would be an awful precedent, that could lead to centuries of power-struggles for inheritances throughout the 7 Kingdoms on the pretext of physical appearance.

Or maybe because there was some contradicting evidence. The genealogy/appearance book is quite old and doesn't document several decades that could be crucial. This could also explain why Pycelle didn't consider it as dangerous as it turned out to be and gave it to Ned, instead of switching it for something else.

For Ned and Stannis, Jon Arryn's murder and Lysa's accusations were part of the evidence for incest, but of course, it was all manufactured. And attempt on Bran was unrelated and made to fit into the narrative.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Completely out-of-left-field idea, unlikely and based on nothing other than the fact that it might be interesting, Dayne blood. Jaime has a dream about wielding a sword burning with silver-blue light while standing before his family and discussing "his place" in the world. Darkness, shadows, and light imagery all figure heavily. This might make Jaime a candidate for Sword of the Morning, but Dawn is a greatsword and Jaime only has one hand.

So, interesting to speculate about, but not all that likely or useful.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The problem about most of the houses suggested is.... someone somewhere likely would have mentioned it.

Arryn- definitely would be an issue concerning the fact that the Arryns are almost extinct. LF might/would have mentioned it

Stark- Oh I'm sure this would be mentioned by just about everybody.

Targaryen- Cersei/Rhaegar wouldn't have been a big deal if she was part Targ

Martell- Likely would have come up through Doran, who would probably do something like name Tywin kinslayer.

Reyne/Tarbeck- Tywin would likely be considered kinslayer

Dayne- Jaime would have mentioned being related to Arthur me thinks.

Not trying to shit on everyones theories and or hopes, but now I'm really curious as to what this house is. Many options can likely be eliminated based on the circumstances in the books, which makes me think that its definitely not a Great House.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just to clarify one thing. It wasn't mentioned anywhere that it was a RECENT ancestor.

The quote is:

His co-author Elio M García, meanwhile, of the fan site Westeros, said earlier this month that the compendium "won't be out this year … but that's because it's becoming rather cooler. More pages, more new history and details, more art. Like the story of the fall of the Tarbecks and the Reynes, the surprising person from whom the Lannisters are descended, more history of the Vale and the arrival of the Andals, and a good deal more. We're working quick as we can, but there's also more art to commission and that means it'd be safest to aim for next year."

http://www.guardian....eorge-rr-martin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just to clarify one thing. It wasn't mentioned anywhere that it was a RECENT ancestor.

I think that it makes sense that however the ancestor is, he or she, is not a recent ancestor. If a Stark or Tully or Martell or Targaryen or Blackfyre or Greyjoy had recently married a Lannister it would have been mentioned.

Wasn't Lann the clever the founder of the House a First Man or was he an Andal?

Perhaps the surprising ancestor has something to do with the age of heroes or the Andal invasion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×