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Maia

Surprising Lannister ancestor?

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I think that it makes sense that however the ancestor is, he or she, is not a recent ancestor. If a Stark or Tully or Martell or Targaryen or Blackfyre or Greyjoy had recently married a Lannister it would have been mentioned.

Wasn't Lann the clever the founder of the House a First Man or was he an Andal?

Perhaps the surprising ancestor has something to do with the age of heroes or the Andal invasion.

Lann was believed to be a first man. It's hard to say right now, the Westeros timeline is changing. 12000 year old houses, the long night being 8000 years ago is wrong. Saw it on one of the videos Elio puts up. Westeros is not as old as people think it is,going back about 2000 years things get hazy.

That said the Lannisters are still mostly Andal blood now.

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I've heard theories that Lann the Clever was a woman and that the fact that the Andals took on the name of Lannister when they married the daughters of the the King of the Rock is a testament to this.

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Maybe even a whore?

I don't know about that, but I could imagine Tytos getting one of the small folk pregnant, and deciding to "save her honour" by marrying her, and Tywin and his siblings cringing with embarrassment whenever their mother appeared in public.

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Re the Reyne Tarbeck possibility:

I happened to re-read Genna's description of the dinner when her father betrothed her to a minor Frey because he didn't know how to say no, and noticed for the first time that a Reyne and Tarbeck walked out in anger - I presume they thought that as leading bannermen there was a good chance she'd be married to one of their sons.

So its quite likely that there could have been the reverse arrangement a generation or two previously - someone choosing a bannerman's daughter as a bride.

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Why would you look for others?

Other Dunk descendents besides Brienne - because I read somewhere that in an interview GRRM confirmed that Dunk had been a bit of a lad and probably has several descendents in Westeros and some of them (not 'one of them') could be in the story. And no, I don't know where I read it. May go and look now.

PS it was in the wiki and although the text says 'several' the interviews referencing it don't say several they seem to say one, but the text does also mention correspondence with GRRM (which isn't quoted) so maybe there is something in it:

Progeny

As per correspondence from GRRM, it is widely speculated that Dunk has fathered children throughout his adventures in Westeros and that some of his descendents are present in the series as of A Storm of Swords.[20][21]

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Other Dunk descendents besides Brienne - because I read somewhere that in an interview GRRM confirmed that Dunk had been a bit of a lad and probably has several descendents in Westeros and some of them (not 'one of them') could be in the story. And no, I don't know where I read it. May go and look now.

PS it was in the wiki and although the text says 'several' the interviews referencing it don't say several they seem to say one, but the text does also mention correspondence with GRRM (which isn't quoted) so maybe there is something in it:

Progeny

As per correspondence from GRRM, it is widely speculated that Dunk has fathered children throughout his adventures in Westeros and that some of his descendents are present in the series as of A Storm of Swords.[20][21]

Isn't Hodor speculated to be a descendant of Dunk? In the Weirwood Net Bran sees a young woman (speculated to be Young Nan) kissing a very tall man which might be Dunk.

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I've heard theories that Lann the Clever was a woman and that the fact that the Andals took on the name of Lannister when they married the daughters of the the King of the Rock is a testament to this.

Wow. :eek:

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I've heard theories that Lann the Clever was a woman and that the fact that the Andals took on the name of Lannister when they married the daughters of the the King of the Rock is a testament to this.

Not impossible but since this is supposed, to my understanding, to be public knowledge it would require a major retcon to make Lann commonly known to have been a woman when he is refered to be a man previously.

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It could be that lann the clever was actually a dwarf. Tywin might of known this and this could be why he hated tyrion that he from the line of a dwarf. This would make tyrion lann the ckever re-born

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It could be that lann the clever was actually a dwarf. Tywin might of known this and this could be why he hated tyrion that he from the line of a dwarf. This would make tyrion lann the ckever re-born

I didn't think of that at first, but you're probably right.

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As per correspondence from GRRM, it is widely speculated that Dunk has fathered children throughout his adventures in Westeros and that some of his descendents are present in the series as of A Storm of Swords.[20][21]

As far as I know, I don't think that's an accurate description of what GRRM said. When asked if there were descendants of Duncan by the time of asoiaf, he answered "maybe". Later on, he anounced that we would found one desscendant of Duncan in AFFC, and it turned out to be Brienne. I've never heard GRRM saying that there were more, or that Dunk was specially promiscuous.

I've heard theories that Lann the Clever was a woman and that the fact that the Andals took on the name of Lannister when they married the daughters of the the King of the Rock is a testament to this.

Lann was a man. From AGOT: "In the songs, Lann was the fellow who winkled the Casterlys out of Casterly Rock with no weapon but his wits, and stole gold from the sun to brighten his curly hair."

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Lann was a man, he became king of the Rock. A female decendant of him married an Andal lord who conquered the Rock. This Andal Lord took the name Lannister when he ascended to King of the Rock.

Considering surprise ancestor. Perhaps some Lannister Lord or King at some point married a Stark? Would that be enough surprise ancestor?

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The problem about most of the houses suggested is.... someone somewhere likely would have mentioned it.

Arryn- definitely would be an issue concerning the fact that the Arryns are almost extinct. LF might/would have mentioned it

Stark- Oh I'm sure this would be mentioned by just about everybody.

Targaryen- Cersei/Rhaegar wouldn't have been a big deal if she was part Targ

Martell- Likely would have come up through Doran, who would probably do something like name Tywin kinslayer.

Reyne/Tarbeck- Tywin would likely be considered kinslayer

Dayne- Jaime would have mentioned being related to Arthur me thinks.

Not trying to shit on everyones theories and or hopes, but now I'm really curious as to what this house is. Many options can likely be eliminated based on the circumstances in the books, which makes me think that its definitely not a Great House.

I at first thought it could be a Reyne, but I don't think that would be much of a surprise. The Reyne's seem like a splinter House of a Lannister bastard.

I think there are a shortage of Starks. My guess is either a lowborn commoner or a Blackfyre.

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As far as I know, I don't think that's an accurate description of what GRRM said. When asked if there were descendants of Duncan by the time of asoiaf, he answered "maybe". Later on, he anounced that we would found one desscendant of Duncan in AFFC, and it turned out to be Brienne. I've never heard GRRM saying that there were more, or that Dunk was specially promiscuous.

Thats so disappointing. When I read that in the wiki I thought I had a new hobby - hunting the Dunk dynasty.

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So, to recapitulate:

a Targaryen or Blackfyre of some sort would make sense for the "Tyrion is a dragonrider" theory and all the other secret Targ theories. But it'd would have to be farther back (clearly) than the Baratheon link. I'm not sure how surprising this would be though.

a Stark would make sense from their fight against Dagon Greyjoy and would certainly be surprising, but it wouldn't change much.

a member of another Great House, but again, neither very suprising nor gamechanging, maybe Greyjoy takes a little surprise...

a smaller family of the Westerlands, like Reyne or Tarbecks who they killed off or even Westerling with their ties to the Starks now.

a smaller family from somewhere else in Westeros, just because it'd be strange. Candidates: Tarth, Tarly, Mormont, Whent, Dayne, and pretty much everyone else...

Generally speaking, there's also a question on how far back that ancestor is supposed to be. Maybe the comment refers to the Andal that married Lann the clever's offspring? Or Aegon the Conqueror forced a Valyrian or even Targ wife on the Lannister Lord of the time to keep him in check? So many possibilities, I feel it's futile to guess... ;)

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PRL,

In the other thread, Ran clarified: "I'm talking specifically the Lannisters as of the novels, not ancient Lannisters. So the surprising person is rather a lot more recent than Lann."

Perhaps a hint is that Ran talks about a surprising "person", not a surprising "family". If we were talking about Stark, Targaryen, Tarly or Tarbeck he wouldn't have said "person", I suppose. So we should think of families with a single prominent character.

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In the other thread, Ran clarified: "I'm talking specifically the Lannisters as of the novels, not ancient Lannisters. So the surprising person is rather a lot more recent than Lann."

That actually intrigues me a whole lot more.

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