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Surprising Lannister ancestor?


Maia

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I think the ancestor is a Stark, I have a legitimate reason other than irony.

Remember in ADwD when Theon and Lady Dustin are in the crypts of Winterfell, and Theon remembers Maester Luwin telling him this-

Right, so we have common cause between Starks and Lannisters. The Starks, as far as we know have had no Western Fleet since Brandon the Shipwright and the Lannisters were building a fleet to repel the Ironborn from Fair Isle. So, maybe in exchange for the use of the Lannister fleet against the Ironborn in the North, Lord Beron sent his daughter to marry the lord of Casterly Rock.

I also think its a Stark.

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I understand that Tywin can't be a bastard, even a legitimized one. But would it be crazy/unlikely/"outside of the laws of Westeros" for Tytos to have married a smallfolk woman? Even, perhaps as a second wife or something (after his first, noble wife dies without issue)?

It's definitely very unlikely. The amount of thought Tyrion has thought about the whole Tysha situation in his POV's he clearly would have brought up his lowborn grandmother. Also the fact that Tytos didn't marry his lowborn mistress strongly implies that he realised he can't marry a lowborn.

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I think the ancestor is a Stark, I have a legitimate reason other than irony.

As soon as Cat discovers that Bran and Rickon were killed, she urges Robb to name a heir and she mentions the distant Stark relative in the Vale.

She does seem to be familiar enough with the Stark family history and I don't think that she would have missed the detail that Lannisters are related to the Starks.

And there is also Tywin and Tyrion. In SOS, Sansa becomes from a captive to an official family member. Tywin wants Winterfell but he gives the impression that Sansa is their only bond with the North. If they were even distantly related, then Tyrion could also have a claim to Winterfell. In that case Sansa would only strengthen Tyrion's claim, by marrying him.

Then again, there are certain facts about Stark family history that Cat and her children ignore but I doubt that Ned doesn't know about family history.

Ned spends a lot of time with the Lannisters in GOT but he doesn't mention a common ancestor.

If Beron Stark or one of his children married a Lannister then for some reason the writer chose to keep it a secret.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Has Daeron the Drunkard's feeble-witted daughter been brought up, or ruled out?

According the wiki, Maekar was born in 174, and Aerion Brightflame in 192. That means Daeron was probably born in 190-1. It would be extremely unlikely for Daeron's daughter to be born before 203, at the very earliest. Realistically though, you can add anywhere from 3-12 or more years to that date; so, 206-215

Tywin's birth year is uncertain. The wiki says 244+/-. There is no birth year for his father, though the wiki says he died in 267. For the sake of a rough estimate, if we assume Tytos Lannister was about 20 when Tywin was born, that puts his birth year around 224. We can't do exactly the same thing for his father since Tytos is a "thirdborn son." Let's call him 25, plus or minus a few years. That would put his birth around 200, which would make him about the right age to marry Daeron the Drunkard's feeble-witted daughter. And that's all great and everything, but there is so much leeway wrt to the dates, that she could have also married Tytos. So yeah.

Regardless of which, if any, Lannister married her – Tytos or his father – it would explain all of the other Targaryen-Lannister stuff people often take as evidence of secret Targs. If it was Tywin's grandfather that married the girl, he and Joanna would be 1st cousins descended from someone with Targaryen blood. It could even provide the explanation for Aerys' behavior towards Joanna; he had the hots for her because they were related, though just barely by Valyrian standards. ;)

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She has not been ruled out, and theoretically it's entirely possible, but I doubt it.

First, my guess is that Daeron's daughter never live to adulthood, and if she did, she may have joined the Faith to spare her family the trouble of finding a husband for her. It would have been Egg who took care of her after his Maekar's and Daeron's death.

I'm also inclined to believe that this daughter was not yet all that old when Maekar died. Aerion's son was born late in his life, and my guess is that it was also quite difficult for Maekar to find a bride for Daeron.

But more importantly - and as I had said it earlier - I do see Tywin or Cersei/Jaime making a grab for the Iron Throne himself/themselves if he/they had a Targaryen/Blackfyre as grandmother or mother.

Jaime and Cersei even discuss the thing about making their twincest official as the Targaryens did. Surely the fact that they were themselves closely related to the royal house would have come up in that discussion, just as it would have been in the back of Cersei's dreams of power all through AFfC. All she deals in her mind is with how she is a female version of Tywin, whereas her Targaryen heritage would have also featured in this whole thing, especially in connection to her fantasies about Rhaegar.

Aerys refusing to marry Rhaegar to Cersei would also have been seen as even more a slight if Tywin and his children were closely related to the Targaryens.

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She has not been ruled out, and theoretically it's entirely possible, but I doubt it.

First, my guess is that Daeron's daughter never live to adulthood, and if she did, she may have joined the Faith to spare her family the trouble of finding a husband for her. It would have been Egg who took care of her after his Maekar's and Daeron's death.

I'm also inclined to believe that this daughter was not yet all that old when Maekar died. Aerion's son was born late in his life, and my guess is that it was also quite difficult for Maekar to find a bride for Daeron.

But more importantly - and as I had said it earlier - I do see Tywin or Cersei/Jaime making a grab for the Iron Throne himself/themselves if he/they had a Targaryen/Blackfyre as grandmother or mother.

Jaime and Cersei even discuss the thing about making their twincest official as the Targaryens did. Surely the fact that they were themselves closely related to the royal house would have come up in that discussion, just as it would have been in the back of Cersei's dreams of power all through AFfC. All she deals in her mind is with how she is a female version of Tywin, whereas her Targaryen heritage would have also featured in this whole thing, especially in connection to her fantasies about Rhaegar.

Aerys refusing to marry Rhaegar to Cersei would also have been seen as even more a slight if Tywin and his children were closely related to the Targaryens.

Are we sure she isn't a bastard?

Also, it occurs to me that Daeron and Tyrion share some similar traits; both are drunkards and whore mongers.

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The Reyne/Tarbeck - I'm guessing it was a Reyne - could very easily have been Tywin's mother since she would have been dead when her family rebelled. It seems that Tytos' wife died rather early, maybe in childbirth, and Tytos may have very well already have had his mistress when the rebellion took place.

Considering that Tytos was a third son it's entirely likely that his Reyne wife was no daughter of the ruling Lord Reyne, but a daughter from a cadet branch (i.e. a cousin or niece of Lord Reyne). If that was the case, the Reynes who rebelled and who were extinguished don't have to be close kin to Tywin.

We should also keep in mind that we still don't have any clue what exactly happened to the members of House Reyne. We know that Tywin smiled when Lady Tarbeck died beneath the crumbling/burning (?) walls of Tarbeck Hall, but we don't know how the Reynes found there end. 'The Rains of Castamere' seems to paint the whole thing as sort of a tragedy.

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I am not sure if related but Rhaenys Targaryen was rumored to have male lovers and I wouldn't be surprised if Aegon took on some female lovers on the side. Crackpot speculation but what if one of the houses of Westeros are the real descendants of Aegon and Rhaenys descendants with unknown man are Targaryens? It would be easiest to hide with the Lannisters.

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At first I thought it would be a Reyne, but now I don't think so. I believe it's going to be a Targaryen, but the question is whether it will be a Brightfire or a Blackfyre.

I think Daeron the Drunkard's feeble-witted daughter is a promising candidate. Daeron, as a whore mongering drunk, matches up quite nicely with Tyrion, too.

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I think Daeron the Drunkard's feeble-witted daughter is a promising candidate. Daeron, as a whore mongering drunk, matches up quite nicely with Tyrion, too.

Possible, but I think she is too old for Tywin's mother. She could be his grandmother though. However, the prophecy has hinted that we will see a Blackfyre probably Aegon/Varys and a Brightflame. Who is going to be the the bright dragon?

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Possible, but I think she is too old for Tywin's mother. She could be his grandmother though. However, the prophecy has hinted that we will see a Blackfyre probably Aegon/Varys and a Brightflame. Who is going to be the the bright dragon?

There are too many unknowns wrt to the DOBs, etc. to be sure if she would have been Tywin's mother or grandmother. But I do agree that she likely matches up better with Tywin's grandfather, age-wise.

It seems to like we should be looking for a girl, so that she could marry into the Lannister House and name. Aerion Brightflame is said to have had an infant son when he died of drinking wildfire in 232. Tywin was born in about 244, so I don't see how we can work Aerion's lineage into this equation.

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There are too many unknowns wrt to the DOBs, etc. to be sure if she would have been Tywin's mother or grandmother. But I do agree that she likely matches up better with Tywin's grandfather, age-wise.

It seems to like we should be looking for a girl, so that she could marry into the Lannister House and name. Aerion Brightflame is said to have had an infant son when he died of drinking wildfire in 232. Tywin was born in about 244, so I don't see how we can work Aerion's lineage into this equation.

However, Aerion was around the free cities for a while. It's possible he may have had a few illegitimate children with a noble family. Tytos being a third son may have chosen a Lady from Essos. I just don't think it is coincidence that Tywin and Joanna are both at court, or that Pycelle (all be it a Lannister supporter) believes that Tywin can actually claim the throne, and mentions him alongside Robert, Aegon and Viserys.

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However, Aerion was around the free cities for a while. It's possible he may have had a few illegitimate children with a noble family. Tytos being a third son may have chosen a Lady from Essos.

Well, if Aerion had any illegitimate daughters, they've yet to be mentioned. Which is curious to me because his infant son was.

I just don't think it is coincidence that Tywin and Joanna are both at court, or that Pycelle (all be it a Lannister supporter) believes that Tywin can actually claim the throne, and mentions him alongside Robert, Aegon and Viserys.

And all of this works just as well if they were descended from Daeron's daughter.

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Well, if Aerion had any illegitimate daughters, they've yet to be mentioned. Which is curious to me because his infant son was.

And all of this works just as well if they were descended from Daeron's daughter.

I agree with all this. It could very well be Daeron's daughter, in fact it probably works better if that is the case.

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We know the Lannisters come from Old Valyria since when it all came apart, they departed in such haste that the family heirloom sword called Brightroar was left behind. The Targaryeans left before the Doom. It is well within the realm of possibilities for the Lannisters and Targs to be related from before the Targs left for Westeros. just think of the Lannisters as poor cousins, fleeing to where they have relatives to sponge off of, and end up resenting.

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The Lannister are not from Valyria. There was a Lannister king who traveled to the ruins of Valyria with Brightroar and never came back. Gerion Lannister - Tywin's younger brother - ended up traveling to Valyria to reclaim this sword. He didn't come back, either.

As to Daeron's daughter: I'd be very surprised indeed if it turned out that she lived long enough to breed.

Rhae and Daella - Maekar's daughters - are still unaccounted for. Since Egg apparently did marry for love, we have every reason to believe that he did not marry one of his sisters. But I have to repeat it: If the Lannisters had a Targaryen princess among their immediate ancestors, they themselves would have a good claim to the Iron Throne. This would have come already, especially since that whole thing might actually make Cersei heir to her children (through her Lannister-Targaryen heritage). This would have been mentioned when Cersei thought about her desire to continue to rule in Tommen's name after he came of age.

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The Lannister are not from Valyria. There was a Lannister king who traveled to the ruins of Valyria with Brightroar and never came back. Gerion Lannister - Tywin's younger brother - ended up traveling to Valyria to reclaim this sword. He didn't come back, either.

As to Daeron's daughter: I'd be very surprised indeed if it turned out that she lived long enough to breed.

Rhae and Daella - Maekar's daughters - are still unaccounted for. Since Egg apparently did marry for love, we have every reason to believe that he did not marry one of his sisters. But I have to repeat it: If the Lannisters had a Targaryen princess among their immediate ancestors, they themselves would have a good claim to the Iron Throne. This would have come already, especially since that whole thing might actually make Cersei heir to her children (through her Lannister-Targaryen heritage). This would have been mentioned when Cersei thought about her desire to continue to rule in Tommen's name after he came of age.

Based on what exactly?

Also, the "surprising ancestor" is quite possibly problematic regardless of whether it's Targaryen, Stark, Reyne, etc. Any one of those seem to fit awkwardly for various reasons. I see up thread your idea is a Reyne or Tarbeck, to which any of us could easily say I would be shocked if Tywin was famously a kinslayer and no one mentioned it.

As I asked up thread, are we sure that Daeron's daughter was legitimate?

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