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MissLalwen

Connection between Children of the Forest and Others

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Sooo… I have tons of things going through my mind regarding the Others and Children of the Forest, I will try to make sense of it.

You’ve got the Children of the Forest, you’ve got the First Men, you’ve got the Andals. You’ve got information that COTF believed in the Gods of nature of some sort, and they are the ones who put the faces on the trees. The other thing we’ve got are the ravens. The ravens definitely have a connection to the COTF, it’s the Three Eyed Crow that leads Bran to the COTF. But at the same time the ravens have a strong connection to the Others. They are something like the Others’ spies. They are calling the Others/White Walkers to the spots where they can find ‘prey’, human beings. So we have this fact, that ravens are used by both the COTF AND the Others. They have that in common.

Then there’s the question, what exactly are the Others doing with all those babies they get from Craster? Why do they insist on taking only sons? Is that simply because Craster wanted to keep the girls for himself, that crazy perv, and no competition with a son… or is there more behind it, do they Others only want boys? So far it seems like there are no female Others. So, what are they doing with the babies? Just eat them? That seems so unlikely. Do they raise them to become Others? How do they do that? How do they raise a human child to become an Other, who is basically a totally different species? Obviously with the help of some magic. But then why do it that way? Does that mean that Others cannot reproduce by themselves? If it’s just for the lack of female Others, they could easily raise female human babies to become Others, and then reproduce with them. But they take only boys… But then, I remember in one of the books (I can’t remember which one) there was a story of a Lord Commander who supposedly took a female Other as his wife. Only a story or is there truth in it like with so many other stories? Did he not become an Other himself in that story? Dammit I wish I could remember where I read it, so I could reread…

Let's go back to the COTF. While reading Bran’s chapters in ADWD, I somehow never trusted them. I know “they seemed so creepy to me” is no valid reason, but they really creeped me out, their appearance, the way they talk, the fact they’re living in the ground, GRRM created a very creepy atmosphere around them. Meera definitely feels it, too. The COTF are very intend on keeping Bran where he is. They’re saying he can help his family better from where he is, but I don’t see how that can work out. He can see things now through the trees, but he doesn’t always see things that are useful, does he? Like seeing Lyanna and Brandon swordfighting in Winterfell before the tree. And even if he saw something significant, he has no way in letting, for example, Jon know about it. He cannot warn them, cannot communicate with them. To me it felt a lot like the COTF are trapping Bran beneath the earth so he can not play an important role in the war to come. Whatever their motive for that is, I’m not saying they’re doing it out of evilness, but it definitely felt like they were trapping him there on purpose to me.

From all we know of what happened to the COTF, they have no reason at all to love men. I remember that little woman who seemed to be a COTF, or at least a descendant from them, in one of Arya’s chapters, telling Arya she smelled of death. Not only in her attitude towards Arya, but also to the other men, she was very hostile, her hatred for them obvious. Not saying she doesn’t have reason to hate them, but she did hate them all the same. I think the same could apply to the other COTF. Really, why should they have any compassion for men after all they had to suffer? Why should they help them men in defeating the Others? Because they are good creatures? We don’t know that for sure.

GRRM took a lot of inspiration from Tolkien. The COTF remind me a lot of Elves, even though they look very different, their characteristics are pretty much the same. Very bound to nature, relation to magic, living on the continent long before there were men, ultimately good ‘people’. But Tolkien’s Elves are not all so good when you look closely. Even these good creatures are capable of murder, even murder their own kin, fight against each other but also against men, and in an early draft that Tolkien later changed, an elven man even raped an elven woman. So even within these good creatures, there is evil, just like in men, and under the right (or wrong) circumstance, that evil seed plays out. I think that could be just the same with the COTF. Like I said before, they have every reason to hate men. And then there’s still the connection of them to the Others. The Others, if we wanna keep comparing to Tolkien, are the Orcs. And if you look at it like that, then there’s already your connection between COTF and Others. The Orcs are created from Elves, using dark magic and torture to turn out the worst/evilness to the surface in Elves. The COTF are initially good, so their first instinct would be to help destroy the Others. But maybe because of all the things that Men have done to them, and due to the fact that they are soon going to die anyway, why not unleash this evil upon Men and take revenge?

Now there’s no proof for it, but there’s also none against it. What do you guys say? Can the Children of the Forest be trusted? In what relation do they stand to the Others?

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One of my pet theories is that the Others were the losers of an early civil war between two rival Cotf strains....and they are a corrupted form of the Singers.

1.The Female Other in the story of the Nights King,Most of Nan's stories have come true so,I see no reason to not believe this one so,Female Others do exist.

2.The CotF become more creepy if you believe the Jojenpaste theory,Which I don't subscribe to but they are in many ways working for their own means,They know they will die out eventually as Leaf says,But I don't believe they mean to go quietly.

3.You think the Ghost of High Heart is a CotF?? Why??

in an early draft that Tolkien later changed, an elven man even raped an elven woman. So even within these good creatures, there is evil,

Can I know which one and where you found this??

As for the resemblances between the CotF and the Eldar is slight,Their histories have almost nothing in common.

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Firstly Welocome to the Forum :cheers:

The story of the NW LC is about the Nights King which, I think, is from ASOS, and most people believe Coldhands to be the Nights King.

Just a little thing but it was Lyanna and Benjen fighting in the Godswood.

I believe the theory that The Others were once COTF but disagreed with The Pact and went to The Lands of Always Winter to learn new magic to push the First Men back put their lands. But I don't think the COTF are evil or anything. They have magic wards outside their cave to keep the The Others and Wights out. Why would they do that if they are working with The Others?

And they don't seem creepy to me by living underground in a cave. Where else would they hide safely from danger, and we know they are few in number and I think they've been living in the cave for a long while because Bran sees other COTF Greenseers in wood thrones like Bloodraven's one. And Bran can make a difference in the cave because we see him trying to communicate with Ned in the past through the Wierwood and there's a theory that Bran

is warging the ravens in the TWOW sample chapter with Theon and trying to get him to the Wierwoods, as they say "tree" and "Theon".

And I like the comparisons of Elves and Orcs and the COTF and The Others.

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Thank your for welcoming me, and thank you for reminding me of the Nights King!

Can someone tell me about the Jojenpaste theory? I've never heard of it.

As for the Ghost of High Heart... I don't know, that was just my impression while reading. Could be totally wrong, too.

Can I know which one and where you found this??

I have only the German copy of the books so I cannot directly quote, but it is the story of Aredhel. I will copy a sample from Wikipedia for you:

After arriving in Middle-earth, Aredhel dwells in Nevrast with Turgon, and goes with him to Gondolin. But after two hundred years she tires of the city and longing for the forests and wide lands overcomes her. Aredhel asks leave to depart. Turgon is unwilling, fearing the exposure of the Hidden Kingdom, but eventually relents.

Riding with companions, they are denied safe passage through Doriath because they seek the sons of Fëanor. And so they travel the East Road along the North March of Doriath.

There Aredhel Ar-Feiniel is separated from her escort in the dangerous region of Nan Dungortheb. She reaches Himlad safely, and waits there to meet Celegorm who is abroad. Ever restless, she wanders off and becomes lost in the forest of Nan Elmoth.

Eöl Mornedhel, the Dark Elf is the lord of those woods. By his enchantments, they meet, and he leads her to his dark home near Gladuial. This was similar to Melian's enchantment of Thingol, but not as innocent on Eöl's part.

There they wed and she stays for many years. Aredhel gives birth to a son, Maeglin. Telling him of her former life and home, and weary of Nan Elmoth, Aredhel Ar-Feiniel desires to see them again. Without Eöl's leave, or knowledge, she departs Nan Elmoth with Maeglin while Eöl is away.

It is already implied here that she did not want Eol, but in the early draft it was more so. He lusted for her beauty and raped her, and he forced her to remain in the forest with him using their son.

I will reply more later, now I need to cook :D

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The Jojen Paste Theory is that the COTF killed Jojen and used his blood in the paste mixture that they gave to Bran to help him Greenseer in the Wierwoods. This is where people say the COTF are evil. I don't believe it because if they want Bran to help them, why would they kill one of his friends, and perhaps his closest.

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But I don't think the COTF are evil or anything. They have magic wards outside their cave to keep the The Others and Wights out. Why would they do that if they are working with The Others?

I never said that the COTF are evil for sure, I'm just saying I do believe that they are capable of evil, just like any other creature. GRRM always says he doesn't like black and white, and everything and everyone in his books are grey. So I don't buy the 'COTF are good' thing. Most of them perhabs, but certainly not all. And there definitely is a connection between the Others and the COTF, whether one belives they are kin or not, just look at how both of them are using ravens.

And they don't seem creepy to me by living underground in a cave. Where else would they hide safely from danger, and we know they are few in number and I think they've been living in the cave for a long while because Bran sees other COTF Greenseers in wood thrones like Bloodraven's one. And Bran can make a difference in the cave because we see him trying to communicate with Ned in the past through the Wierwood and there's a theory that Bran

is warging the ravens in the TWOW sample chapter with Theon and trying to get him to the Wierwoods, as they say "tree" and "Theon".

And I like the comparisons of Elves and Orcs and the COTF and The Others.

I've not read the TWOW samples, so I can't say anything about it. But regarding what you said about Bran trying to communicate with Ned... He tries, yes, and he fails. Ned is dead, and what he saw was only a memory. And even if somehow he could communicate with Ned's ghost, he's dead. How will Bran communicating with dead people help the living? I don't know... I don't know if the COTF are really keeping Bran with them for their own purposes, or if they genuinely wanna help him, but I do find it suspicious.

As for their magic keeping the Others out. Well, that they want the Others to take revenge over the Realm does not mean the COTF want to endager themselves. They are safe where they are, and they don't need to be anywhere else in order to help the Others, they don't have to put themselves in danger. It reminds me a bit of the past, when the COTF have given the Nights Watch obsidian to fight Others, but have never engaged in an open fight with the Others themselves. Of course this whole 'take revenge on Men who killed our species' is just a theory... but let's be honest, who wouldn't be pissed about that?

So the real question is, do they rather want to take revenge on Men, or do they want to forgive them for the past and make their deaths (they are dying out, there's no way around it) serve a purpose by saving the Realm?

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The Jojen Paste Theory is that the COTF killed Jojen and used his blood in the paste mixture that they gave to Bran to help him Greenseer in the Wierwoods. This is where people say the COTF are evil. I don't believe it because if they want Bran to help them, why would they kill one of his friends, and perhaps his closest.

Oh ok, never heard that one before! Is their any kind of 'proof' for that? I mean where does the theory come from? Jojen isn't even dead yet, or did I totally forgot about it? :o As far as I remember he was 'only' dying, in deep depression. But not dead yet.

But, assuming that the COTF really would kill/did kill Jojen, and are indeed evil/or at least, well, just want revenge on Men, by letting the Others bring down the Wall, then there is a motif for killing Jojen. Because Jojen didn't want to stay in the woods, beneath the earth. He was talking about going back home. He tried to convince Meera, and she Bran, that it was time to leave and go back South. By killing Jojen Bran would have much less reason to leave the COTF.

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I don't see any reason for the COTF to take revenge on men after The Pact. They helped eachother for thousands of years and lived in peace. The First Men even converted to their gods to show them that they were truthly at peace.

If they were going to use them as a way to save the Realm it will probably be Jon and Bran who are the important to them in defeating The Others.

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Oh ok, never heard that one before! Is their any kind of 'proof' for that? I mean where does the theory come from? Jojen isn't even dead yet, or did I totally forgot about it? :o As far as I remember he was 'only' dying, in deep depression. But not dead yet.

I think the only 'proof' they have is that the Wierwood paste tasted like blood in Bran's mouth and that we don't see Jojen again after they arrive.

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Ever since we saw Bloodraven's cave, I've had the crackpot theory that the Children of the Forest were responsible for the massacre at Hardhome 600 years ago. I also got the impression that they have a taste for meat.

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I don't see any reason for the COTF to take revenge on men after The Pact. They helped eachother for thousands of years and lived in peace. The First Men even converted to their gods to show them that they were truthly at peace.

If they were going to use them as a way to save the Realm it will probably be Jon and Bran who are the important to them in defeating The Others.

That's not quite true. Yes they lived in peace together after the Pact, but then came the Andals and they burned all the Weirwood trees, of which the COTF believed to be their Gods. Their most sacred trees were burned. And by now most of the people living in Westeros are decendants from the Andals or at least a mix of Andals and First Men.

When Bran asks Leaf where the rest of the children are, she replies:

“Gone down into the earth … Into the stones, into the trees. Before the First Men came all this land that you call Westeros was home to us, yet even in those days we were few. The gods gave us long lives but not great numbers, lest we overrun the world as deer will overrun a wood where there are no wolves to hunt them. That was in the dawn of days, when our sun was rising. Now it sinks, and this is our long dwindling. The giants are almost gone as well, they who were our bane and our brothers. The great lions of the western hills have been slain, the unicorns are all but gone, the mammoths down to a few hundered. The direwolves will outlast us all, but their time will come as well. In the world that men have made, there is no room for them, or us.”

To Bran Leaf seemed sad as she told him, and that makes Bran sad as well. It is only later that he reflects and thinks to himself, Men would not be sad. Men would be wroth. Men would hate and swear a bloody vengeance. The singers sings sad songs, where men would fight and kill. This could totally be a hint for us as to the true intentions of the COTF. Bran is a child still, easy to manipulate with a sad song. But his instincts may still be true about the revenge thing.

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I think the only 'proof' they have is that the Wierwood paste tasted like blood in Bran's mouth and that we don't see Jojen again after they arrive.

Oh ok, thanks for letting me know! Well, but Meera is still looking after her brother, isn't she? I'm sure she would know if Jojen was dead, and tell Bran... And the paste could still have Jojens blood in it without killing him. Just remember how Melisandre is leaching Edric Storm or Gendry in the show to get to his blood.

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Ever since we saw Bloodraven's cave, I've had the crackpot theory that the Children of the Forest were responsible for the massacre at Hardhome 600 years ago. I also got the impression that they have a taste for meat.

Imao while there truly is no evidence for this whatsoever, I wouldn't completely dismiss this just for the looks of them xD I mean they do look very much like predators. They have those cat-like eyes that allow them to have super good vision in the dark, and instead of hands they have sharp claws.

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They maybe have a hatred towards the Andals, but I can't see it towards the First Men. They have kept their gods and old ways since The Pact.

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Oh ok, thanks for letting me know! Well, but Meera is still looking after her brother, isn't she? I'm sure she would know if Jojen was dead, and tell Bran... And the paste could still have Jojens blood in it without killing him. Just remember how Melisandre is leaching Edric Storm or Gendry in the show to get to his blood.

I don't remember if Bran sees Meera after he takes the Wierwood paste. If he didn't then she's probably with Jojen.

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I don't remember if Bran sees Meera after he takes the Wierwood paste. If he didn't then she's probably with Jojen.

I have reread that part. She comes to talk to Bran about Jojen and tells him that Jojen wants to go home. Then she starts to cry and leaves. Then several days pass without Meera ever showing up again. There is no sign of her, or Jojen, when Brynden tells Bran it's time, and they make him eat that paste. Bran has an uneasy feeling about the paste, the look reminds him of blood and makes him feel ill. Leaf tells him he must eat the paste, leaving him with no choice.

When all is done he retreats to his cave and hopes to find Meera finally back there, so he can tell her about what just happened, but she is not there.

I think it's curious that Meera did not visit Bran for days, maybe a whole week. She spent a lot of time with Jojen, but also with Bran. And suddenly she is gone for so long without a word. As to what that means... We'll find out in the next book, hopefully.

He ate. It had a bitter taste, though not as bitter as acorn paste. The first spoonful was the hardest to get down. He almost retched it right back up. The second tasted better. The third was almost sweet. The rest he spooned up eagerly. Why had he thought that it was bitter? It tasted of honey, of new-fallen snow, of pepper and cinnamon and the last kiss his mother ever gave him. The empty bowl slipped from his fingers and clattered on the cavern floor. "I don't feel any different. What happens next?"

Leaf touched his hand. "The trees will teach you. The trees remember." He raised a hand, and the other singers began to move about the cavern, extinguishing the torches one by one. The darkness thickened and crept toward them."

The COTF are obviously working some magic with the paste, there is no other explanation how something that tastes so bitter and raises all warning bells in Bran suddenly turns out to taste delicious so quickly and makes him wonder how he could ever think it was bitter. The way the bowl slips from his fingers make him appear like he is in a state of trance. Of course, this is no indicator for actual blood in the paste, nor that the COTF are working dark magic, but the whole scene seems queer and the wording of the last sentence about the darkness is really creepy.

Also, in the same chapter, Bran again connects with the Weirwoods and as the memories take him back very far in history he sees how someone is being sacrificed in front of a Weirwood tree, indicating that the Old Religion used blood sacrifices. Coincidence that this information is given in the same chapter where Bran is made to eat a paste that looks and tastes like blood and the Reeds have disappeared? I find this really interesting.

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The Blood Sacrifice in front of the Wierwoods indicates to many that

TWOW Theon sample chapter spoiler...Bran and Bloodraven will use Theon's beheading by Stannis in front of some Wierwoods could help them resurrect Jon and get his soul, from Ghost, back into his human body.

As to Meera and Jojen I think they are most likely being treated somewhere by the COTF and maybe told not to disturb Bran in his training.

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They maybe have a hatred towards the Andals, but I can't see it towards the First Men. They have kept their gods and old ways since The Pact.

Only up to a point. Its one of the mysteries of Westerosi history. The Andals conquered all of Westeros below the Neck and either during that conquest/takeover, burned out the weirwoods and slaughtered the Children when they could catch them. The North however was not conquered and so the Pact ought have been maintained above the Neck, yet instead of finding sanctuary the Children had to flee further, beyond the Wall. When the crisis came the Pact was not honoured by the First Men.

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Only up to a point. Its one of the mysteries of Westerosi history. The Andals conquered all of Westeros below the Neck and either during that conquest/takeover, burned out the weirwoods and slaughtered the Children when they could catch them. The North however was not conquered and so the Pact ought have been maintained above the Neck, yet instead of finding sanctuary the Children had to flee further, beyond the Wall. When the crisis came the Pact was not honoured by the First Men.

Maybe they couldn't help the COTF because they were defending The North at Moat Cailin

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