The Jon Snow Reread Project II AGOT-ACOK

[Winterfellian]

Just a quick bit on the nicknames. Their discussion seems to boil down to two main things. The name being subjective based on the addresser rather than the addressee (aurochs meaning "stupid" from Thorne but a "noble beast" from a friendlier source) and the importance of earning the name (maybe defining yourself or being your own man?.) The two also seem to have some interplay as Grenn seems to think Sam's earning the name somewhat precludes it from being used to call him a coward like Thorne called Grenn stupid with "Aurochs." Part of this relates to bravery and Ned's line about only being able to be brave when scared, but there's also some identity stuff there too.

Tyrion generally reacted poorly to being called a giant, but reacted quite positively to Aemon referring to him as one. Then there's the Giant of Lannister comment that he quite enjoyed from Shae until she repeated it at his trial. For Jon, our main focus here, both "bastard" and "Lord Snow" evolve in meaning for him.

I like your interpretation Ragnorak. But I think we also ought to allow for the meaning the addressee gives to the name and the reason for this. Sam gives a negative connotation to the nickname Slayer, whether it comes from Grenn or Bannen, and wishes he could be ‘just Sam Tarly’. But I think this is more than an appealing to just be himself.

I view it as a way of hiding behind another name. After all, Sam Tarly is a coward. Just a few moments before the conversation he thinks how right his father was about him being useless.

So I tend to see Sam’s reaction, not as an appeal to the “self” but as means to protect himself for actually having to acknowledge the name for fear that then he’ll have to live up to the it, failing to acknowledge that in his own awkward way he already is.

As an aside, throughout this chapter I feel Sam reinforces the idea that death is easier. Life is bloody, messy painful, hard, etc. as shown by Gilly’s experience; and as Sam reflects:

When you are dead, fear had no more meaning than pain or love or duty

I think this presents an interesting juxtaposition with Jon’s situation as he described himself as “dead to the world” in his very first chapter. This condition only exacerbated the conflict between love, duty, etc inside of him. By the end of the book Jon has bought his way back to life with pain, sorrow and blood not without making some sacrifices along the way.

[Lummel]

...I view it as a way of hiding behind another name. After all, Sam Tarly is a coward. Just a few moments before the conversation he thinks how right his father was about him being useless.

So I tend to see Sam’s reaction, not as an appeal to the “self” but as means to protect himself for actually having to acknowledge the name for fear that then he’ll have to live up to the it, failing to acknowledge that in his own awkward way he already is...

I had one of those odd moments when I felt a link between two passages in the books. In this case between Sam's ambivolence about the nickname and the moment when Jaime becomes Lord Commander and looks at his page in the White Book.

For Jaime he feels that the future is his to shape his own life and possibly his reputation, while at this stage for Sam he has a fear of being defined by other people and thrust into roles that he isn't comfortable and don't match up with his ("fat pink mast") poor self image. :dunno:

[Ragnorak]

I had one of those odd moments when I felt a link between two passages in the books. In this case between Sam's ambivolence about the nickname and the moment when Jaime becomes Lord Commander and looks at his page in the White Book.

For Jaime he feels that the future is his to shape his own life and possibly his reputation, while at this stage for Sam he has a fear of being defined by other people and thrust into roles that he isn't comfortable and don't match up with his ("fat pink mast") poor self image. :dunno:

That's a very good connection. Much of Jaime's musing about himself deal with nicknames-- Kingslayer, the Young Lion, Goldenhand the Just. There's also the "slaying" connection where Jaime slays the very object his order is supposed to defend and Sam, for the first time in thousands of years, slays the object his order was created to kill. Jaime made conscious choice to break with his vows in favor of personal morality while Sam made a somewhat unconscious choice out of pure desperation. They make for an interesting contrast. There's a lot that can be said about this Sam/Jaime comparison even including the roles their fathers play externally and internally.

Self image in a good angle too. We all have a mental mirror image of ourselves and to some extent need to see it reflected in the outside world. Moments when our own internal notions of who we are turn out to be dramatically different from how the world views us can be catalysts for change. The story of Nobel prizes falls under this category and was inspired by the nickname "merchant of death." Apple Martini had a good thread speculating on the Targaryen match originally intended for Olenna and positing an origin for the Queen of Thorns nickname. As I recall Arya seems to take on a nickname with a good number of her new names and she has a lot of self image vs. the world going on.

The notion of owning, redefining or reforging one's nickname is in some ways the essence of every POV character's struggle. The whole role of nicknames could probably get its own thread but I think we've established cause to look at nicknames more closely as we go forward. Probably a good thing to flag for closer analysis in any reread.

[Bastetcat]

Amazing post Ragnorak! These reread threads are really gems on the forum :) (trying to keep up again)

You know what this minor piece of the chapter made me wonder is why does the raven speak here? And it's not just speak but 'mutter', a weak version of 'to speak' where you're not sure if you want to be heard or not. On my first read, the raven seemed comical, sometimes even annoying, but I eventually picked up on the idea that he speaks to make a point. In this case I don't think he's fortifying the woman's point that they are free people at liberty to do as they should chose, but referring to her as a slave. While she parrots the words that she undoubtedly heard Craster speak when he manipulates or forces his wives/daughters into submitting to him, the raven parrots hers, and in a way unmasks the only relevant word of what she said, the word that ironically describes her.
I think enhances the dilemma that Jon is about to face, because it surely does not escape him that these women are slaves to Craster. And though he initially had no intention of violating his word of honor, the condition that Gilly is in, as well as the inevitable fate of her son does in the end convince him to help her escape.
Tragedy is not the choice between good and evil, but two incompatible goods, which in this case is honor vs. morality.

I also really like the piece you picked up on about the women (both Gilly and later Alys) who symobically recognize the King in Jon. I think this gesture reminds him of his duties, whether he sees himself as King, or (more likely), not.

 

I also recognized something else. While a lot of king make statements repeatedly as "I am the king". Jon is the only one who thinks or says "I am not a king", which makes him the better king than all the others.

There is an old saying: "Never give power to those who wants it" (I translated it from another language so it may be different in English, but it is understandable) This is a lesson which could be told to a lot of character in the ASOIAF series, and even the Stannis the Mannis doesn't understand this.

But I am out of topic again.

[Bastetcat]

I think Ghost paid the iron price for the rabbit ;)

Old Nan - interesting point. Over in Heresy we took her stories as the most accurate version of the past - but of course that's all relative.

Sam and Gilly, :dunno: any bets? I imagine we'd split as a group fairly evenly on that question.

I agree on the Mormont issue. I can only guess that they see the wights and the White Walkers as unrelated, while we, having read the prologue, know there is some connection or at least association between the two.


:laugh: There are lots of theories on the board, enough for a dozen each and many to spare!


Yes? I thought it was more something along the lines of calling him one of the rich assortment of derogatory names that we have for cowards: "He's afraid of you Chett. On the Sisters, we have a name for them like him." Warg doesn't really fit in that context that I can see.

With regard to religion in the North I would say that Davos IV and Bran III ADWD show us that the crueller practises in the worship of the old gods are of very long standing. I'd recall too the faces on the Weirwoods - not a happy bunch on the whole. That doesn't preclude the influence of the cold gods worshippers but lets face it as far as we know there is only one of them. We really don't know if this cold gods lark is a tradition or a modern thing or not.


I don't know either. One of the interesting things about doing rereads and all us sharing opinions is that you realise things that you've missed before - in my case that there is a basic weirdness in Mormonts upcoming attitude towards Mance particularly considering that it was his naked encounter with a wight that seems to have really shook him and led to the decision to have a mass ranging and find Benjen etc.

The connection between White Walkers on the shore, wights and Mance coming south seems to elude Mormont and his officers, yet it seems a bit too obvious to the reader. Odd.



I had a couple of other Craster thoughts.
One was that we should not fetishise the Wildlings and their freedom. Gilly is as much a result of that freedom as Ygritte. The Wildlings are no ideal society, the social system is no more likely to produce the one than the other. Human society north of the Wall - like south of the Wall is flawed.

Craster's lifestyle is like Frodo's vision of the scouring of the shire. If Winter and the white walkers were to dominate wouldn't all human life be like that - collaborating with the White Walkers for survival?

 

I agree with you. Furdermore I believe that Mance - being raised in the NW didn't learned the real social system of the south's. Neither one is perfect, but while (lot of) people in south realize the holes, the northerns believe their "no rules" system is perfect. Mance realized the basics, and learned the NW hierarchy system, which is a military system, not common in everywhere in Westeros. He tried to force their freedom, not realizing the importance of assimilation. "We will have our rules, and your land, and be grateful." He didn't considered the future, in 10, 20, 50, 100 years after how would he have make sure there is pace? 
He was blinded by the wildlings freedom-system also. Like a greedy merchant: gave me all you have, and free. This is where he failed to be a king IMO. He - as a lot before him - tried to win by force, and then by cunning. No bargain. Wile Jon started to assimilate them immediately. But that is in further books, sorry.

I am off topic again.

Edit: spelling

[Bastetcat]

Well, what a bright and astute person you must be ;) . I'm sure there's some mundane psychological explanation... German mother, Jesuit influence, similar generational experiences, Aries, clinically insane too...

I remember liking these chapters very much my first read. As readers we get to see this land beyond the end of the world that had been so hyped revealed through Jon's eyes as he experiences it. The natural scenery was appealing to me and even reminded me a bit of my own youthful exploring in the Adirondacks. We got a glimpse of this land in the GoT prologue but mostly we know people have been vanishing beyond the Wall along with ominous hints like Tyrion's reaction to the howling wolves while he says goodbye to Jon. Even a 700 foot wall of ice implies a good reason to have built a 700 foot tall wall of ice. The Wildlings had been portrayed as savages much like the Dothraki with Dany though they never quite achieve the cultural humanizing the Free Folk do.

Qhorin's reaction to the Wildlings in general along with the backstory of his friendship with Mance really help to demystify the Old Nan version of these people before we really get to them. One aspect of Jon's arc in Clash is a suspenseful build up to meeting these Wildlings. When the next book rolled around I wasn't disappointed. I loved the cast of characters Jon meets among the Wildlings. I felt a similar enjoyment and interest with Arya in Braavos. From Cat of the Canal's adopted family, to the whores, to the mummers, to the sailors and random people she meets I felt a genuine interest and a curiosity to know more of the people and that place. I suspect part of the reason I feel there's a connection between Braavos and the North is the similarity of my experience reading about them.

Meereen is the place I had quite the opposite reaction where I was unable to feel any emotional connection with almost any of the local people (a dark place inside of me will forever cherish when those people are caught between dragonfire and the benevolence of Victarion.) One key difference is that Martin built up a curiosity over these Wildlings from the very opening and kept it up for two straight books. Meeting them is a long expected event. With Dany the suspenseful buildup was her return to Westeros and lingering in Meereen was an ambush to the readers and an offense to the buildup of plot expectations. That and they eat puppies.. own slaves... crucify children...

Of course none of this is by accident and the author has a purpose or intention behind it. Jon will meet larger than life characters like Tormund Giantsbane, Tall-talker, Horn-blower, Breaker of Ice, Husband to Bears, the Mead-king of Ruddy Hall, Speaker to Gods and Father of Hosts and Dany will meet some guy with too many damn Z's in his name who eats puppy fetuses and she marries the rich asshole from every High School movie ever made (an asshole that eats puppies too, owns slaves, and with a careful reading of the text might even molest children as well.) That isn't meant as a criticism of Dany or her choice just that Hizdar is a first class bag of excrement. Jon takes the reader into the heart of the people we heard about before we even met the Starks, and Dany halts the Fire and Blood train that we just knew was going to have a high speed collision at the KL station platform right in the aftermath of a dead Joffrey and Tywin. Given Dany's tree planting/conquering conflict it seems Martin is intentionally masking the three dimensional characters to play upon our desire to see dragons indiscriminately roast "bad guys." Dany's last Storm chapter comes before Lysa's confession and Storm is before Cersei gets a POV so our "villain" is still ruling in KL-- plus we're talking about puppies here. Puppies. Puppy eaters and dragonfire are totally a caveat for that fifth commandment thing. God appeared to Moses as a burning bush because he was roasting a puppy eater so its like totally in the Bible that you can kill puppy eaters with fire... but I digress.

Jon over the course of Clash of Kings aligns with our overall dramatic plot expectations far more so than most of the other POV characters. Sansa is set up as the Damsel in Distress forever waiting to be rescued, Arya is a constant toying with our hopes that she'll be reunited with family mixed with dire peril, with Bran we experience the very unexpected fall of Winterfell. While Jon joining the Wildlings was certainly unexpected, that he would meet the Wildlings was in the dramatic cards. In Clash Jon is on a course of being mentored and experiencing the world where the conflict he's concerned with will take place. He is set up nicely for the way his story unfolds in Storm of Swords and again in Storm for Dance. Dany has a similar build up in Clash that leads to her Slavers Bay rampage in Storm but her stopping in Meereen is very much out of step with the suspenseful plot expectations built up for the reader over the course of Storm heading into Dance with Dragons. To appreciate Dany's arc in Meereen most readers have to separate themselves from their expectations of her story built up over Storm whereas Jon's has no such expectation disconnect.

This isn't to say that I find Jon to be predictable just that his overall story isn't one that plays with the readers one sentence summary expectations. In the cosmic story picture we expect him to discover that the Ice Zombies are the real problem/rediscover the real purpose of the NW and he does. With the others we're set up to expect Sansa to get rescued (not) Arya to get home or meet family (not) Robb to rescue his sisters or avenge Ned (not) Cat to see her children again or help at least one to be safe (not) Dany to invade Westeros (still waiting...)

Circling back to my original thought, one of the reasons I enjoy Jon so much is because of the surrounding characters. Qhorin was a great character, Mormont, Dolorous Edd, Satin, Noye, Sam. Small Paul, Aemon, Ygritte, Tormond, Alys Karstark, Mance, Gilly, Cotter Pyke (one of my favorite minor characters of all) even Thorne, Marsh and Craster were great characters if not exactly as lovable as Edd. Martin's choices in presenting Jon the way he does lends itself to presenting a cast of such rich more three dimensional characters throughout his story as well as social dynamics among those characters. I bring up Dany's time in Meereen specifically because it is in many ways the polar opposite in terms of the surrounding cast's presentation. (She isn't the only one by far. Tyrion's Mountain Clans come off as comic caricatures because he does things like turn down the offer to share the ox and misses out on Shagga's hopes, dreams, and fears told over mead.) There is a very subtle and complex web of information, themes and symbolism throughout those Meereen chapters and the writing is quite brilliant-- but it doesn't lend itself to the wide array of other characters that we see in Jon or in Arya.

I totally agree with you here. Jon is the only character whose companion is well described. Good-bad, hateful-lovable - HUMAN characters. There is no one else whose surrounding characters are this well written. I always enjoyed Jon's chapters, because I can root for everyone there. I even care about Thorne - I want to know what happened to him. There is no other POV character whose whole company is this well written and human. Not the BWB, not Brienn's, not Arya's, and especially not Sansa's. Dany's whole Mereen storyline made me want to jump her chapter's. It was as much a pain for me as for Dany. 

( Little off topic, but... 
Dany: Now I don't even care what happen with Dany. She is lost to me. I don't want her to reach Westeros.

Sansa: I am totally bored of Sansa and her "someone save me already" behavior. It would be a relief for me if she dies, seriously. Only the spoiler WOW Alayne Stone chapter was readable for me. So I can still hope... 
Arya: If she continue to be no one, than she will be no one to my also. Sad.
Bran: Now this is something I am looking for.)