The Jon Snow Reread Project II AGOT-ACOK

[Lummel]

...I can't help but wonder if there's more to this raven! It got very excited about Bran living and Jon saying he would die. It bobbed it's head with "Father"- referring to Ned and when saying "Ben jen". That's some very Stark-centric peculiarities IMO. The raven is special and we all know what it does in future books. I wonder if the raven is being warged by someone, even at this early point in the story. If it's Benjen warging the bird, it would explain why he said his name so staccato and weird. He wants them to know it's him. Or perhaps it's Bloodraven. He also would be very connected to Jon ( as his relation).

What a fantastic level of detail you've spotted! :)

I would think Bloodraven - we know he was at the Wall for some time, we know he wargs ravens, we know from ADWD that he has been watching the Starks. I suppose we can't rule out Benjen but since we don't know if he was a warg I don't feel we can rule him in, perhaps he hovers there as an unprovable either way ;)

Another possibility might be the bird itself. We know from ADWD that the souls/consciousness of past wargs in second life can remain in the beast to some extent perhaps Mormont's raven is one of those birds and so has an unusual amount of intelligence, but I'm most inclined to think that there is a Bloodraven connection.

[lakin1013]

Does there need to be another forum created for Jon X? Have I missed it? The opening post goes only to Jon IX! I just noticed that Jon 9 was posted on June 1 so I guess this is a 'wait for it'?

[Isildur's Mane]

Does there need to be another forum created for Jon X? Have I missed it? The opening post goes only to Jon IX! I just noticed that Jon 9 was posted on June 1 so I guess this is a 'wait for it'?

I believe we are going to be starting on CoK next, that was his last GoT chapter.

[butterbumps!]

aGoT JON round-up

Before moving into aCoK, here's a broad summary of what we've looked at in aGoT (I'll be posting aCoK Jon I tomorrow). I took clippings from posts from lots of different posters for this summary, but it got too much to credit everyone, so I just compiled it as an anonymous, uncopyrighted compendium.

Bran I

Bran accompanies his father, Jon, Robb and his father’s men to “see the king’s justice done:” a deserter of the NW is executed by Ned’s own hand. On their return to Winterfell, Jon and Robb find a litter of direwolf pups. After Jon sacrifices his chance of having his own pup for the sake of his half-siblings, he comes across a pure white one that had wandered off from the others, which he claims for himself.

The way the characters are introduced early in aGoT really tends to frame how we engage with them subsequently; Bran I paints a particularly positive view of Jon that is immediately challenged by Jon’s first chapter.

Jon I

From the back of Winterfell’s banquet hall, Jon observes the feast thrown in Robert’s honor while getting thoroughly drunk. His uncle, Benjen, leaves the table of honor to join him, and Jon “impulsively” asks him to bring him back to the Night’s Watch to take the oath. Benjen unintentionally pushes a few of Jon’s buttons, resulting in a spectacle as Jon drunkenly fumbles outside for air. Once outside, Tyrion, who has also left the feast, strikes up conversation and offers Jon some “life coaching.”

Jon reaches a breaking point when Benjen counsels him to “father a few bastards of [his] own” before making the choice. Before realizing the escalation, Jon loudly states that he will “never father a bastard,” creating a scene that draws considerable attention. The hall was described as irritatingly smoky throughout the chapter, threatening to induce his tears, and now they finally come as he runs “half blind” out of the hall. Alone outside, he wipes his tears, “furious that he had let them fall.”

Tyrion simply asks Jon if he’s in fact “Ned Stark’s bastard,” which immediately interrupts Jon’s recently mollified demeanor: “Jon felt a coldness pass right through him. He pressed his lips together and said nothing.” Realizing Jon’s discomfort, Tyrion apologizes, but firmly restates the question. Reluctantly, Jon admits that Ned is his father, and takes quiet pleasure in the fact that Tyrion says he “has more of the North in [him] than [his] brothers.”

Cat II

The Jon- cat dynamic is elaborated on; Ned refuses to bring Jon to KL, and decides to send him to the NW when Luwin reveals that Jon wants to go.

Arya I

Jon and Arya watch the swordplay in the yard, and reflect on life’s unfairness and contradictions (girls get arms but not the swords). Jon offers the notorious line: “The longer you hide, the sterner the penance. You’ll be sewing all through winter. When the spring thaw comes, they will find your body with a needle still locked tight between your frozen fingers.”

Bran II

Bran notes that Jon seemed angry at everything lately, as everyone makes preparations to leave Winterfell.

Jon II

Jon says his goodbyes to Bran, Robb and Arya, giving her Needle. We are not shown him saying goodbyes to The Ned, Rickon or Sansa (or Theon or anyone else). Those first three are the key relationships for Jon.

Tyrion II

Tyrion and Jon are on the road to the Wall; Tyrion spends the first half of the chapter reading and we get an info-dump about dragons. The second half is his and Jon’s interactions. Tyrion tries to goad Jon into admitting that he has dark thoughts toward members of his family, be it repressed anger or jealousy. Tyrion admits that he has fantasized of burning his family alive, but Jon insists he feels no resentment toward anyone.

This what escalates into the tense confrontation, in which Ghost intervenes. The tension is cut when Jon says Ghost attacked because he must have confused Tyrion for a "grumkin." Tyrion has stopped trying to goad Jon, and the two conclude their exchange on more equal footing:

Bran III

Bran has his coma dream, depicting each sibling, showing Jon cold and alone.

Jon III

The chapter begins with the end of the practice session in the yard as Jon beats his last opponent. After the practice four other recruits confront him in the armory and a fight ensues. Donal Noye stops it and sends the others on their way but keeps Jon behind to give him a lecture about his attitude and the Nights Watch. Jon leaves and meets Tyrion who invites him to share a meal. When they sit down to eat Thorne interrupts them to tell them Mormont wants to see Jon. Tyrion forces the reason out of Thorne and Jon sprints to Mormont's chamber to hear what news there is of Bran. Jon is elated to hear that Bran is alive and uses the opportunity of the commotion his celebration causes to offer to help Grenn learn to fight.

Tyrion III

Tyrion shares a meal of crabs with Mormont, gets an info-dump about the state of the Watch, and talks with Jon one last time from the top of the Wall. A full analysis can be found here. They part as “friends.”

Arya II

Arya leaves a dinner with her father’s men abruptly, leading into a long conversation between her and her father, resulting in the introduction of dancing lessons with Syrio. A full analysis can be found here.

This goes into the summary, because it contains Ned’s feelings about the fluid nature of honor, something Jon often questions in relation to what Ned would choose.: “It was right,” her father said. “And even the lie was … not without honor.”

Jon IV

While in the midst of helping Dareon with sword training, an obese boy arrives at the Wall, whom Pyp recognizes as a Southron lordling. Jon does not recognize the striding huntsman on the sigil. Alliser pairs the boy with Halder-- who is 16, “tall, and muscular”—for the first round of training. The boy quickly yields, yet Alliser commands Halder to keep hitting him until Jon intervenes.

Annoyed by Jon’s success at getting Halder to cease, Alliser sets up a new match: three boys to get through Jon, who will be defending “Lord Piggy.” As Jon resigns himself to the inevitable pain from the match, Pyp and Grenn elect to stand with Jon, leveling the match. The three successfully keep the boy from further harm. After the match the boy introduces himself as Sam Tarly, a self-professed “craven.” Jon is flummoxed by this confession, while Pyp and Grenn begin regretting their having stood in Sam’s defense.

Jon goes about his chores, thinking on Sam’s craven confession, concluding that admitting cowardice takes an odd sort of courage of its own. At dinner, he chooses to bypass the table full of his friends in favor of sitting with Sam, who is completely alone. They go outside to talk, and after an initial emotional outpouring by Sam, Jon divulges a personal confession about a recurring crypt dream he’s been having of the Winterfell crypts, leading Sam into a confession about how his father had forced him to renounce his inheritance and join the NW.

When Jon returns to his friends, he encourages them to go easy on Sam during training and to categorically cease making fun of the boy. Pyp immediately backs him, followed by Grenn and Halder, and finally, all but the boy Rast promises. In the night, Jon brings Ghost, Pyp and Grenn into Rast’s cell for some additional “persuasion.” In the end, no one continues to harass Sam in the training yard or elsewhere. Sam knows Jon was behind it, and gratefully calls Jon “friend.” Jon lets him know they’re more than that: “brothers.”

Though Jon connects Sam and Tyrion conceptually, Ghost has an extremely divergent reaction to the two. Where Ghost instinctively threatens to attack the Lannister each time they meet, prevented only by Jon’s intervention, Ghost immediately takes to Sam, becoming the intervention between Jon and his new friend.

Jon V

We start with Ser Alliser giving his analysis of the intake then we travel out with Jon down the King's road to perceive the situation at a distance before curving back round to Maester Aemon and the significant conversation between him and Jon.

Jon has a choice to make by the end of this chapter. The Wall or the road? I personally feel that this is the first temptation to leave the wall Jon has to confront and it makes sense that Jon’s doubts in this instance are all self created, with no influence from the outer world (no Ned’s execution, no Ygritte and no pink letter). In this instance, Jon has to battle with himself and himself only. There is no other factor pulling him in another direction, like in the cases I mentioned above. I used to think that Jon had accepted his faith back on the road when he told Tyrion: “If that’s what it (the Wall) is, that’s what it is", but I've come to think it is actually this moment, when he had all the information to make a more informed decision and still carry on with his original resolve to become a man of the watch.

Also, I love how the road and the Wall are depicted separately in this instance. Whereas the Wall is described as extending from horizon to horizon, limiting and restricting, the road is full of endless possibilities even if it holds no particular promise. The thing is the both the wall and the road can be ambiguous in both perception and purpose. A person may yearn for the security a wall provides and chafe at the restraints on liberty the same wall gives. Jon yearns for the possibility of advancement the Wall and NW offers him but he’s well aware and not particularly happy of the limitations this life will give him:

The fact that the Wall becomes “home” at this moment is very significant I feel. When Jon turned his horse and headed for “home” we are left with the Kingsroad becoming the road not taken.

Something that was striking about ADWD was that the Wall seemed to be increasingly a prison rather than a home, at this stage I think it is more balanced - both home and prison, but look how Jon reacts from Jon III onwards - he recreates a family here, in Jon IV he is explicitly thinking that we are brothers. He is making his peer group into a substitute family - naturally he's closest to Sam because he is also from a noble house.

Sansa III

Sansa thinks on Jon sweetly, feeling sorry for the life he’s chosen:

“There was a black brother,” Sansa said, “begging men for the Wall, only he was kind of old and smelly.” She hadn’t liked that at all. She had always imagined the Night’s Watch to be men like Uncle Benjen. In the songs, they were called the black knights of the Wall. But this man had been crookbacked and hideous, and he looked as though he might have lice. If this was what the Night’s Watch was truly like, she felt sorry for her bastard half brother, Jon. “Father asked if there were any knights in the hall who would do honor to their houses by taking the black, but no one came forward, so he gave this Yoren his pick of the king’s dungeons and sent him on his way.

Jon VI

The chapter opens with Jon and Sam having breakfast where Sam shares the news that he's being promoted out of training. Jon feigns surprise and they head to the Sept to meet the other recruits. Jon learns he's going to be a steward and not a ranger and becomes angry as he thinks it is Thorne's doing. Sam explains to him that he's being groomed for command and Jon realizes that his reaction was immature. Jon and Sam head beyond the Wall to the weirwood grove to say their vows and Ghost finds a severed hand which we won't learn belongs to a wight until later.

Again we have the mature vs. immature theme and this time it is Sam that helps Jon learn and gain perspective. The Ranger vs. Steward is again turning away from his idol the Young Dragon. Jon inspiring Sam to take his oath before the heart tree will replay again in Dance. There's plenty to discuss here especially against the backdrop of Jon's other lessons but it is mostly straight forward.

NED XIII

This next group of chapters form a collection, perhaps more clearly than other chapter sequences. After Jon VI, in which he swears his oath and finds the black hand, we have Ned XIII, Arya IV, Sansa IV, Jon VII, and Bran VI.

I’m calling this a collection because the four Stark children’s chapters are responses to Ned’s chapter. Ned XIII is where Robert dies, Cersei ignores Robert’s will, and Ned is taken as a traitor by the City Watch at LF’s behest. Following this, we see Arya through the immediate aftermath, as Syrio facilitates her escape from the Red Keep in the midst of the slaughter of Ned’s household. Sansa weighs in 3 days later, brought before the Queen to write letters to her family after having spent those days in confinement. The news of Ned’s “treason” reaches the Wall, and Jon reacts with anger and shame; a larger threat forces these dark thoughts from his mind. We don’t see Bran’s immediate response to the news, but rather, his thoughts on Robb gathering men to support their father and aid the Riverlands by marching south. Bran asks for solitude in the godswood, where he prays and speaks to Osha.

Arya IV

Darkness and the undead pervade the last section of her chapter. She must descend into the cellar of the Keep into order to escape, this time holding a stolen light to guide her way. Though the dragons no longer frighten her, she is terrified that the dead stableboy will emerge from the darkness to haunt her. She considers snuffing the candle to use the darkness as a shield so that her undead won’t find her. Until she recalls this memory:

Fear cuts deeper than swords, the quiet voice inside her whispered. Suddenly Arya remembered the crypts at Winterfell. They were a lot scarier than this place, she told herself. She’d been just a little girl the first time she saw them. Her brother Robb had taken them down, her and Sansa and baby Bran, who’d been no bigger than Rickon was now. They’d only had one candle between them, and Bran’s eyes had gotten as big as saucers as he stared at the stone faces of the Kings of Winter, with their wolves at their feet and their iron swords across their laps.

Robb took them all the way down to the end, past Grandfather and Brandon and Lyanna, to show them their own tombs. Sansa kept looking at the stubby little candle, anxious that it might go out. Old Nan had told her there were spiders down here, and rats as big as dogs. Robb smiled when she said that. “There are worse things than spiders and rats,” he whispered. “This is where the dead walk.” That was when they heard the sound, low and deep and shivery. Baby Bran had clutched at Arya’s hand.

When the spirit stepped out of the open tomb, pale white and moaning for blood, Sansa ran shrieking for the stairs, and Bran wrapped himself around Robb’s leg, sobbing. Arya stood her ground and gave the spirit a punch. It was only Jon, covered with flour. “You stupid,” she told him, “you scared the baby,” but Jon and Robb just laughed and laughed, and pretty soon Bran and Arya were laughing too.

Jon is the figure who twice in this chapter has enabled Arya to accept death through two jokes: his advice provoked her to make her first primal kill, and it is through her memory of his pretend reanimation that she loses her fear of death (and the undead). Immediately prior to this memory, she fears that the dead will rise and haunt her. By recalling undead Jon, she’s able to remember that she laughed in the face of death, thereby undermining its fearful nature.

Bran VI

Perhaps Osha's advice that Robb should've gone north and not south explains Robb's fall and Jon's rise. While both have a strong and mostly same foundation, IMHO, it's the lessons Jon learns and will because he went north that does and will enable Jon to keep going.

Jon VII

News about Ned’s arrest is bookended by developments involving a more existential threat: wights and Others.

The chapter opens with a small party examining the remains of two rangers who set out with Benjen earlier: Jafer Flowers and Othor (Jafer’s hand was found in the previous chapter by Ghost). The more seasoned men don’t immediately find anything unnatural about the bodies, but Sam speaks up to point out that something’s terribly wrong with the way the bodies have decomposed, leading others to observe their bright blue eyes and other inconsistencies. Some of the men craft makeshift stretchers, and the party returns to Castle Black with the bodies for further inspection by Aemon.

Bowen meets them at the tunnel to let Mormont know there’s been a bird. The corpses are put into a storeroom, and Jon takes care of the horses and runs into his friends. He’s told that King Robert has died before making his way to Mormont’s chambers to check in.

Mormont tells him the contents of the letter: Ned has been arrested for treason. Mormont kindly gives him the night off. Shaken, Jon walks through the castle, realizing with shame from people’s looks that they all know. Everyone treats Jon with extra kindness except Alliser Thorne, who loudly mocks Ned as a traitor at dinner. Enraged, Jon pulls out a dagger and lunges at the man, leading Mormont to punish him by confining him to his cell with Ghost.

During the night, Ghost is restless and begins scratching at the door wildly, getting Jon’s attention. Jon opens the door and follows the wolf into Mormont’s chambers, where the corpse of Othor is lumbering around, trying to get to the Lord Commander. Jon and Othor’s corpse fight, Jon saves Ghost from being strangled, then Ghost saves his master from the same fate. The episode is brought to an end when Jon grabs Mormont’s lantern, sets the drapes on fire, and burns the wight.

When Jon arrives in Mormont’s chamber, he realizes something is terribly wrong. Mormont commands Jon to pour both of them wine and to sit; dreading the news, Jon draws this out for as long as possible to delay. Mormont begins with news of Robert’s death, imparting this wisdom to Jon: “They say the king loved to hunt. The things we love destroy us every time, lad. Remember that. My son loved that young wife of his. Vain woman. If not for her, he would never have thought to sell those poachers.”

I think that as we read, we should question Mormont’s words here. I think that “love as the bane of honor” and Mormont’s “love destroys” are only half of the picture. I think that the Hugo quote offers a more complete dynamic, suggesting that both destruction and salvation can be achieved through love. I would argue that this has already applied to Ned’s promise to Lyanna, and will multiply variously as we keep reading.

Mormont makes two contradictory statements. First, he laments the fact that this political debacle in KL will negatively impact the Watch, which will need strong leadership in the face of the “unnamed” threat: “This could not have happened at a worse time. If ever the realm needed a strong king … there are dark days and cold nights ahead, I feel it in my bones …” He gave Jon a long shrewd look. “I hope you are not thinking of doing anything stupid, boy.”

Yet, he then insists that the troubles surrounding his father are no longer his concern, as “Whatever they do in King’s Landing is none of our concern.”

But, no, this is not true, by Mormonts own admission several paragraphs above. Like the advice about love, I believe Mormont is not acknowledging the full spectrum of what each of these (love and neutrality) entails.

Jon VIII

Jon Snow, recovering from his burns but not quite so well from his dreams attends Lord Commander Mormont who gives him his heirloom sword. Dismissed Jon descends into the yard and his mobbed by his friends peers class group demanding to see the sword. Jon shows them weapon – still feeling ambivalent about it and his place in the world. Sam summonses him to attend to Maester Aemon with whom Jon has a significant conversation.

If Mormont taking on Jon as his personal steward suggested to Sam a grooming relationship (not surprisingly since his father was urging him to have a feel of his sword). No, enough of these horrible double entendres, if Mormont was looking to mentor Jon by making him his steward, giving him the sword suggests a transmission of leadership as the gift of Blackfyre to Daemon did (as readers of The Sworn Sword might recall).

Jon wonders why Aemon is talking about ravens and doves which is a sure clue that we ought to be wondering as well. This is as much about leadership as it is about vows, honor and love given Aemon's awareness of Jon's grooming. There is no code of honor that one can blindly follow that will always be the right choice. Later we'll see this play out in both Jaime and Selmy as they reflect on the immorality of their own past obedience to "the code" and we'll see them confront their own murky choices. The burdens of leadership lead to black choices that will be hated and misunderstood by godly men like Baelor the Blessed. There are no clean hands with true responsibility. We'll even learn later when Oberyn and Tyrion speak that Baelor never truly ruled, never burdened himself with the weight of that responsibility-- he let his uncle Viserys get the blood on his hands.

Jon IX

Jon has heard of Ned's death and has chosen to ride south to join Robb. Sam, that brave coward, is blocking the exit from the stables trying to convince Jon not to go without any success. Jon rides down the kingsroad wrestling with choice and pauses after a time to eat and wait for Ghost to catch up. His friends catch up with him and he tries to hide behind a cluster of trees, but Ghost shows up and gives away his location. Jon is still intent on going but his friends surround him and recite the oath in turns. Jon agrees to return but is still intent on leaving again when doing so won't endanger his friends. Upon returning to the Wall he fetches Mormont's breakfast and the Old Bear confronts him about his ride. He tells Jon the Watch is riding in force north of the Wall and asks him whose war is more important. Jon makes his choice to stay.

There is no clear choice. All paths are grey and right, wrong and honor pull in all directions. Throughout the chapter Jon's hand continues to pain him which I believe echoes back to the idea of blood on one's hands from Aemon's speech. There's also the issue of love and how that weighs on things:

To rely on a septon is to disown the responsibility of making the choice. The same is true of relying on a code or the letter of the law. Doing so amounts to keeping your hands clean by placing the responsibility of choosing on something external. That isn't to say laws or religious codes are useless. They are fine guides in simple times and simple circumstances but are not designed to be a substitute for wisdom or an absolution of responsibility. Looking at this passage the Heart Tree stands in the role of septon for the Old Gods. Right and wrong must be decided by the heart-- the home of love and source of blood.

[Isildur's Mane]

This is a great compendium butterbumps! and can't wait for your Jon I CoK post tomorrow.

I just had a thought that I guess should go here because it is about Jon and could be usefull to look for in re reading (and sorry if it seems rushed as I am meannt to be heading out the door).

Anyway, I was wondering if any one has spotted or bought up the fact that Jon never seems to share a meal with anyone, or he starts to but is interupted. Like when he is goingt ot share a meal with Tyrion and Thorne interupts, or how in Clash he is about to eat a meal on top of the Fist of First Men but thinks the air smells of death so gives his meal to Grenn(?) or how he is going to have a meal with the Iron Banker but gets interupted again.

Anyway, I was just wondering, do you think there is anything to it? I noticed when reading the Tyrion reread thread that there was alot of symbolism with tyrion sharing meals and what those meals were, is it worth comparing the two? Or does anyone think there is any meaning to this? Or is this old news that's been done before?

[Lummel]

...Anyway, I was wondering if any one has spotted or bought up the fact that Jon never seems to share a meal with anyone, or he starts to but is interupted...

Huh, we spotted that in Learning to Lead when we were reading ADWD, but I hadn't tuned into it starting already in AGOT - there's also the meal interpreted because he jumps up to attack Thorne which is two and then fleeing from the feast in Jon I so three.

I think this is meaningful in lots of ways - communal eating is convival, it is also an act of fellowship and communion with your fellow eaters and it is an opportunity to relax and nourish yourself (spiritually and physically). So all these interrupted meals are a bit troubling it points towards isolation, disconnection, interruption (obviously I suppose), stress...I'm sure others can chime in with more benefits of the Jon diet!

...The fact that the Wall becomes “home” at this moment is very significant I feel. When Jon turned his horse and headed for “home” we are left with the Kingsroad becoming the road not taken...

You are mysteriously emphasising that Jon did not take the Kingsroad which would take him to being in Kings landing where all the Kings hang out as though there were some mysterious importance to Jon not wanting to take the Kings Road :laugh:

Morning coffee brought me to the thought that just as there a debate about the nature of knighthood in ASOIAF there is within the discussion of power something being said about the nature of kingship too. We can take about true kingship and false kings just as much as we can talk about true and false knights, just as Brienne is the truest of knights but never can be one there is a sense that Jon maybe the truest of kings without actually ever becoming one.

[The Sleeper]

To rely on a septon is to disown the responsibility of making the choice. The same is true of relying on a code or the letter of the law. Doing so amounts to keeping your hands clean by placing the responsibility of choosing on something external. That isn't to say laws or religious codes are useless. They are fine guides in simple times and simple circumstances but are not designed to be a substitute for wisdom or an absolution of responsibility. Looking at this passage the Heart Tree stands in the role of septon for the Old Gods. Right and wrong must be decided by the heart-- the home of love and source of blood.

I like these notions, very much. Jon intimates a belief with the reader, one shared by the Old Bear that one cannot lie before Heart Trees. There is also Jon's observation that if the Old Gods hear, they do not answer, not so far in his experience anyway. We also know from Bran, who is on the other side of this looking glass, that the Heart Trees remember essentially forever. There is a very strong reilgious theme in Jon's arc, denoted in no small part by his growing asceticism, not in the sense of doctrine or worship, but in the sense of one's place in the world, morality, purpose. It all revolves around the burden of choice.

Some rumination is needed on my part, in order to come up with notions that can be properly articualted. I think Jon's future experiences, choices and general confusion viewed in this light can yield some interesting questions.

[butterbumps!]

Anyway, I was wondering if any one has spotted or bought up the fact that Jon never seems to share a meal with anyone, or he starts to but is interupted. Like when he is goingt ot share a meal with Tyrion and Thorne interupts, or how in Clash he is about to eat a meal on top of the Fist of First Men but thinks the air smells of death so gives his meal to Grenn(?) or how he is going to have a meal with the Iron Banker but gets interupted again.

Anyway, I was just wondering, do you think there is anything to it? I noticed when reading the Tyrion reread thread that there was alot of symbolism with tyrion sharing meals and what those meals were, is it worth comparing the two? Or does anyone think there is any meaning to this? Or is this old news that's been done before?

I think there's something purposeful going on when Martin writes scenes of shared meals, so I do think there's symbolism. I think the majority of meals Jon had in this group were pretty successful for Jon, though. Unlike Tyrion, he doesn't purposely choose to eat alone at this point aside from the late night dinner he brought for the road. I think the interruptions are important, but eventless, shared meals seem to be the norm at this stage:

1. Jon does eat with the "lowborn" during Robert's feast

2. He eats with Tyrion at CB, Thorne interrupts with Bran's news, Jon returns to the dining hall

3. He eats with Sam (we don't know how long they were there for before leaving together)

4. Shares the big feast for the new recruits

5. Shares breakfast with Sam the morning they swear vows

6. Sharing meal with his friends, which is interrupted by Thorne again, this time resulting in Jon's solitary confinement

7. Solitary meal on the road

8. We're told in 2 chapters that eating with his group of friends is the norm, so off-page we know he eats communally.

[Ragnorak]

Huh, we spotted that in Learning to Lead when we were reading ADWD, but I hadn't tuned into it starting already in AGOT - there's also the meal interpreted because he jumps up to attack Thorne which is two and then fleeing from the feast in Jon I so three.

I think this is meaningful in lots of ways - communal eating is convival, it is also an act of fellowship and communion with your fellow eaters and it is an opportunity to relax and nourish yourself (spiritually and physically). So all these interrupted meals are a bit troubling it points towards isolation, disconnection, interruption (obviously I suppose), stress...I'm sure others can chime in with more benefits of the Jon diet!

Hmm... I sense a comprehensive thread on the theme of meals in the making. I don't have a sufficient sense of each POV's meal experience to make a hypothesis, but we do know Martin is big on describing meals. It would make sense that the actual shared eating experience (or lack thereof) is important as well. Meals are fraught with meaning in our daily lives. Business deals are made over meals, foreign leaders and dignitaries are welcomed with food, dates involve a meal, meals are a family ritual especially with children-- even a functional solitary meal says something. Even apart from the literary symbolism involved, meals are meaningful in and of themselves.

Tyrion's crab meal at the Wall always struck me because I have a friend who makes Maryland Blue Crabs for the express purpose of engineering a social environment during the meal. The time required to break the shells and get to the meat forces a slow meal and one can never have a mouth too full for conversation. The shy and socially awkward who are meeting strangers for the first time are "eating crabs" so they fit with a conversation that they might otherwise feel awkwardly silent during.

You are mysteriously emphasising that Jon did not take the Kingsroad which would take him to being in Kings landing where all the Kings hang out as though there were some mysterious importance to Jon not wanting to take the Kings Road :laugh:

Morning coffee brought me to the thought that just as there a debate about the nature of knighthood in ASOIAF there is within the discussion of power something being said about the nature of kingship too. We can take about true kingship and false kings just as much as we can talk about true and false knights, just as Brienne is the truest of knights but never can be one there is a sense that Jon maybe the truest of kings without actually ever becoming one.

This is a very intriguing line of thought. Apple Martini has a thread about Alys Karstark going to Jon and one of the points is that Jon is both acting like and being perceived as a King in the pragmatics of what is going on indifferent to titles. That's getting a bit ahead, but we still have things closer to our chronology. Sansa makes much of how the knights look during the Hand's Tourney and we have Jon thinking Jaime looks the part of the King echoed later by Stannis recalling how Tywin looked the part of a King. Davos opening gives us that a true King protects his people or he is no King at all with the "true King" mirroring Sansa's "true knight." There would be a certain irony to a Jon, the true King by birth, acting the part of the true King by deed but never bearing the title. Apart from that I think the true King/true knight parallel is something there by intent and worth keeping in mind.

[Isildur's Mane]

Huh, we spotted that in Learning to Lead when we were reading ADWD, but I hadn't tuned into it starting already in AGOT - there's also the meal interpreted because he jumps up to attack Thorne which is two and then fleeing from the feast in Jon I so three.

I think this is meaningful in lots of ways - communal eating is convival, it is also an act of fellowship and communion with your fellow eaters and it is an opportunity to relax and nourish yourself (spiritually and physically). So all these interrupted meals are a bit troubling it points towards isolation, disconnection, interruption (obviously I suppose), stress...I'm sure others can chime in with more benefits of the Jon diet!

Ah, I haven't read all of the Leading to Lead threads as it was over when I joined up, but I have read some of them, I just must not have read the bits with Jon's meal habbits.

and yes, I agree with your observations.

...

Morning coffee brought me to the thought that just as there a debate about the nature of knighthood in ASOIAF there is within the discussion of power something being said about the nature of kingship too. We can take about true kingship and false kings just as much as we can talk about true and false knights, just as Brienne is the truest of knights but never can be one there is a sense that Jon maybe the truest of kings without actually ever becoming one.

I agree with this

I think there's something purposeful going on when Martin writes scenes of shared meals, so I do think there's symbolism. I think the majority of meals Jon had in this group were pretty successful for Jon, though. Unlike Tyrion, he doesn't purposely choose to eat alone at this point aside from the late night dinner he brought for the road. I think the interruptions are important, but eventless, shared meals seem to be the norm at this stage:

1. Jon does eat with the "lowborn" during Robert's feast

2. He eats with Tyrion at CB, Thorne interrupts with Bran's news, Jon returns to the dining hall

3. He eats with Sam (we don't know how long they were there for before leaving together)

4. Shares the big feast for the new recruits

5. Shares breakfast with Sam the morning they swear vows

6. Sharing meal with his friends, which is interrupted by Thorne again, this time resulting in Jon's solitary confinement

7. Solitary meal on the road

8. We're told in 2 chapters that eating with his group of friends is the norm, so off-page we know he eats communally.

I agree with purposeful feeling of these meal interruptions.

Also, I was rushing and didn't make myself clear when I typed my previous post, but I generally feel that Jon does has most of his meals communally with his brothers/friends, it's just that most of the meals we do see seem to be interupted.

I had forgotten about Jon eating with the lowborns in Jon I at the feast, and some of the others. And you have a point about not choosing to eat alone but always getting interupted.

I think Jon is more successfull with making a deal over a drink then a meal. Is it to do with the social side of bonding over a drink? Sharing a horn or a glass of wine etc to relax and losen tongues? Sorry, I'm probably getting to far ahead. Maybe something to keep an eye out for?

[Isildur's Mane]

....

Tyrion's crab meal at the Wall always struck me because I have a friend who makes Maryland Blue Crabs for the express purpose of engineering a social environment during the meal. The time required to break the shells and get to the meat forces a slow meal and one can never have a mouth too full for conversation. The shy and socially awkward who are meeting strangers for the first time are "eating crabs" so they fit with a conversation that they might otherwise feel awkwardly silent during.

I'd be interested in reading and adding to a thread like that, for some reason those events are sticking out to me this time round. I'll try and keep note of them while I'm going.

I was just thinking of Tyrion's and Jeor's (+other Night watchmen) crab meal this evening when watching Dexter (Season 1 - I've only just started watching Dexter today) and they always seem to be eating crabs - at least in the 1st few eps and I just couldn't help but think of Tyrion and Jeor.

This is a very intriguing line of thought. Apple Martini has a thread about Alys Karstark going to Jon and one of the points is that Jon is both acting like and being perceived as a King in the pragmatics of what is going on indifferent to titles. That's getting a bit ahead, but we still have things closer to our chronology. Sansa makes much of how the knights look during the Hand's Tourney and we have Jon thinking Jaime looks the part of the King echoed later by Stannis recalling how Tywin looked the part of a King. Davos opening gives us that a true King protects his people or he is no King at all with the "true King" mirroring Sansa's "true knight." There would be a certain irony to a Jon, the true King by birth, acting the part of the true King by deed but never bearing the title. Apart from that I think the true King/true knight parallel is something there by intent and worth keeping in mind.

This is really interesting and I've read most of the linked thread by AM. I do agree with the true knight/true king point too.

[DrunkSister]

I would like to talk about something that I haven't seen discussed before: I have noticed that Jon POV gives in some instances more space to evaluations of male beauty than of female beauty.

I do not wish to make any claims as to what that might mean, but to open the subject and draw attention to it in the Jon reread.

I will ilustrate it with several scenes:

The feast in Winterfell:

Cersei: She was as beautiful as men said. A jeweled tiara gleamed amidst her long golden hair, its emeralds a perfect match for the green of her eyes.

Joffrey: He was twelve, younger than Jon or Robb, to Jon's vast dismay. Prince Joffrey had his sister's hair and his mother's deep green eyes. A thick tangle of blond curls dripped down past his golden choker and high velvet collar.

Jaime: Ser Jaime Lannister was twin to Queen Cersei; tall and golden, with flashing green eyes and a smile that cut like a knife. bla bla clothes bla bla lion of his house bla bla kingslayer Jon found it hard to look away from him.

This made me ask if Jon was at least aesthetically more attracted to beautiful men than women, though it could be argued that he doesn't like Cersei's personality. But then I reread the Red Wedding and continued from there in ASoS and found this:

Satin: He was pretty as a girl with his dark eyes, soft skin, and raven’s ringlets. ... “It’s cold.” Satin stood with his hands tucked into his armpits under his cloak. His cheeks were bright red. ... Satin’s face was a ghastly white. ...

Jon finds Satin pretty and uses more poetical language to describe his actions than he does for other NW brothers. That Marsh might have noticed the appreciative gazes makes me want to giggle and facepalm at the same time.

And then I went looking and found the scene where Mance is introduced:

Val: a pretty young women

Styr: He was straight as a spear, all long wiry muscle, clean-shaved, bald, with a strong straight nose and deepset grey eyes. He might evenhave been comely if he’d had ears, but he had lost both along the way, whether to frostbite or some enemy’s knife Jon could not tell.

Mance: The King-beyond-the-Wall looked nothing like a king, nor even much a wildling. He was of middling height, slender, sharp-faced, with shrewd brown eyes and long brown hair that had gone mostly to grey. bla bla bla clothes bla bla no jewels

- the king should be as comely as Jaime it would seem :D but it made me wonder, he was judging a man for comeliness but gave us no description of Val.

I don't want to draw any conclusion or make a thesis based on this, but rather to open the question of who Jon likes to look at and what in a person he finds attractive. We will have more material in the upcoming books and I would very much like to talk about it when we get there.

His sexuality;

His aesthetical preferences;

His IMO fixation on nice, curly hair :laugh: ;

Beauty as a sign of kingship and how Jon's ideas evolve with experience.

[Lummel]

I would like to talk about something that I haven't seen discussed before: I have noticed that Jon POV gives in some instances more space to evaluations of male beauty than of female beauty...

A striking observation!

I suppose we could say that there simply aren't so many women that Jon might come across up at the Wall, but then rather like in Jon Connington's chapters the choice of language and the tone can be quite revealing once you start to pay attention to it...

[Winterfellian]

I suppose we could say that there simply aren't so many women that Jon might come across up at the Wall, but then rather like in Jon Connington's chapters the choice of language and the tone can be quite revealing once you start to pay attention to it...

WHAT?! I refuse to accept this!!!! :commie:

[Lummel]

WHAT?! I refuse to accept this!!!! :commie:

You don't think Jon has an interest in curly hair? ;)

[DrunkSister]

WHAT?! I refuse to accept this!!!! :commie:

What? That Jon thinks kings should be beautiful? Well, that could be Ned's fault for telling Jon&co all those stories of how dreamy Robert had been. ^_^

I haven't found anything that suggests any sort of physical reaction, but he both notices when a man is good looking and he judges men about it. Then again, I don't think Jon Connington POV has any physical reaction either, so :dunno: .

[Winterfellian]

You don't think Jon has an interest in curly hair? ;)

:laugh: Only when it is in the head of curly red head girls:

Ygritte’s hair was such a tangle that Jon was tempted to ask her if she only brushed it at the changing of the seasons

What? That Jon thinks kings should be beautiful? Well, that could be Ned's fault for telling Jon&co all those stories of how dreamy Robert had been. ^_^

You're right. The moment he starts using adjectives such as muscled like a maiden's fantasy to describe Tormund am out of here ^_^

[Lady of Long Lake]

I would like to talk about something that I haven't seen discussed before: I have noticed that Jon POV gives in some instances more space to evaluations of male beauty than of female beauty.

I do not wish to make any claims as to what that might mean, but to open the subject and draw attention to it in the Jon reread.

Even before Jon took his vows, there was an uneasiness in him when it involved women. During the King's feast, Jon responds to Benjen by shouting out," I will father no bastards!!" and his eyes fill with tears and he rushes blindly from the room.

When he was pretending to be a Wildling, one of them was talking to Jon about why he didn't want to lay down w/Ygritte. Jon was truthful and said he was so worried that she may get pregnant with a bastard and he didn't want that to happen. I think in Jon's mind, all women equate with " a bastard child with a sad life". Jon thinks Ned's head was turned by a pretty lass and look how that ended up. A sad boy was raised with no mother, and had to live with a shameful last name.

In ADWD, there is a beautiful, poignant line in Jon's thoughts. This won't be verbatim but this was the gist," Just this once, he allowed himself to daydream the dream that he never allowed himself to think about. What his life would be like if he had children of his own and his own home and wife".

I don't think Jon is unusually drawn to men. I think the discrepancy between the descriptions is that Jon won't allow himself to pay attention to women because it makes him feel bad (or sad) about himself. He's a bastard, so therefore he doesn't deserve a normal life with wife and children. He deserves to be at the Wall because his bastardy won't hold him back there. Why look at women and wish for things you can never have?

Sorry to post about future things! I can't delve into this topic well unless I do.

[Mladen]

:laugh: Only when it is in the head of curly red head girls:

I think it`s about red head girls. And I am particularly interested in one whom he described as radiant way back in AGOT, in moment when everyone else looked pretty boring to him... Thanks Ragnorak for that, now I have enough for blasphemous therory :devil:

[Isildur's Mane]

Even before Jon took his vows, there was an uneasiness in him when it involved women. During the King's feast, Jon responds to Benjen by shouting out," I will father no bastards!!" and his eyes fill with tears and he rushes blindly from the room.

When he was pretending to be a Wildling, one of them was talking to Jon about why he didn't want to lay down w/Ygritte. Jon was truthful and said he was so worried that she may get pregnant with a bastard and he didn't want that to happen. I think in Jon's mind, all women equate with " a bastard child with a sad life". Jon thinks Ned's head was turned by a pretty lass and look how that ended up. A sad boy was raised with no mother, and had to live with a shameful last name.

In ADWD, there is a beautiful, poignant line in Jon's thoughts. This won't be verbatim but this was the gist," Just this once, he allowed himself to daydream the dream that he never allowed himself to think about. What his life would be like if he had children of his own and his own home and wife".

I don't think Jon is unusually drawn to men. I think the discrepancy between the descriptions is that Jon won't allow himself to pay attention to women because it makes him feel bad (or sad) about himself. He's a bastard, so therefore he doesn't deserve a normal life with wife and children. He deserves to be at the Wall because his bastardy won't hold him back there. Why look at women and wish for things you can never have?

Sorry to post about future things! I can't delve into this topic well unless I do.

I think it isn't exactly feeling sad about being a bastard but proving to himself and the world that not all bastards are wanton, evil creatures. He is trying to break the prejudice against bastards in general by being above that kind of thing in general. At least, that's my way of thinking.

ETA: Mladen, I know where you are going with that, not sure if I believe you but I am happy to be proven wrong.

I am of the belief that because he fell for Ygritte, who was similar to Arya, he will fall for someone that is similar to Sansa. BUt then maybe I'm in denial... what ever happens I will read it and I'm sure I will love it.