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Let`s discuss Sansa`s so-called betrayal to her father


Mladen

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Here I will quote Sansa`s POV from GOT and Tyrion`s from COK

“It was for love,” Sansa said in a rush. “Father wouldn’t even give me leave to say farewell.” She was the good girl, the obedient girl, but she had felt as wicked as Arya that morning,

sneaking away from Septa Mordane, defying her lord father. She had never done anything so willful before, and she would never have done it then if she hadn’t loved Joffrey as much as she did. “He was going to take me back to Winterfell and marry me to some hedge knight, even though it was Joff I wanted. I told him, but he wouldn’t listen.” The king had been her last hope. The king could command Father to let her stay in King’s Landing and marry Prince Joffrey, Sansa knew he could, but the king had always frightened her. He was loud and rough-voiced and drunk as often as not, and he would probably have just sent her back to Lord Eddard, if they even let her see him. So she went to the queen instead, and poured out her heart, and Cersei had listened and thanked her sweetly... only then Ser Arys had escorted her to the high room in Maegor’s Holdfast and posted guards, and a few hours later, the fighting had begun outside.

“It would seem he has a point,” said Tyrion. “So this Lord Slynt, he was part of it, was he? Tell me, whose fine notion was it to grant him Harrenhal and name him to the council?”

“Littlefinger made the arrangements. We needed Slynt’s gold cloaks. Eddard Stark was plotting with Renly and he’d written to Lord Stannis, offering him the throne. We might have lost all. Even so, it was a close thing. If Sansa hadn’t come to me and told me all her father’s plans...”

Tyrion was surprised. “Truly? His own daughter?” Sansa had always seemed such a sweet child, tender and courteous.

“The girl was wet with love. She would have done anything for Joffrey, until he cut off her father’s head and called it mercy. That put an end to that.”

From these two quotes, we can draw several conclusions. First, Sansa`s indiscretion happened on the very same day Ned confronted Cersei, just several hours passed between Sansa`s visit and the beginning of fights. Second, Sansa told Cersei only what she knew: that her father is sending her and Arya to Winterfell. Third and most important, all machinations were already done by the time Sansa came to Cersei. LF already bought the loyalty of Golden Cloaks before Sansa came. What is then the ultimate conclusion?

Sansa had so little with Ned`s death. She may have something with deaths of his men, buit even that is questionable. What Sansa brought to Cersei`s table was important in a way, that Cersei knew when to react, but with already bought Golden Cloaks, and Ned`s warning, Cersei already had all she needed.

So, why do we insisting on claiming Sansa betrayed Ned in some horrible way? She did nothing any of Ned`s children haven`t already done. The problem is that Sansa`s little indiscertion is connected with terrible outcome, and that`s why we separate her from others. Interestingly, Sansa behaved here like a true Stark, or at least just like her aunt. Without thinking of consequence, she pursued love, and ultiately paid the price for turning the back to her family.

What do you think? Am I right or wrong and why? And did Sansa really betray Ned in such horrible way some posters on the forum claim she did?

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What Sansa brought to Cersei`s table was important in a way, that Cersei knew when to react, but with already bought Golden Cloaks, and Ned`s warning, Cersei already had all she needed.

Cersei's timing had nothing to do with Sansa. It was determined by Robert's time of death. Acting immediately in such cases when there is any doubt in the smooth succession (as Cersei knew would be the case now after Ned told her he knew about the twincest) is the obvious course of action.

Ned arranged for his daughters to leave 3 days earlier, before Robert was injured. I don't see how this info would help Cersei's timing in any way.

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While she might not have understood what was at stake she was old enough to understand that you don't betray family.

But could that be considered betrayal? She thought she was doing the best. It`s not like she knew it was betrayal and she did it all along.

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What do you mean?

Bran climbed despite his parents` wishes, Arya was always disobedient. I imagine Jon and Robb also did something against their father`s wishes. This act of disobedience wasn`t something unheard of. It`s just misinterpreted as betrayal.

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While she might not have understood what was at stake she was old enough to understand that you don't betray family.

How was going to Cersei betraying her family? She was defying them, certainly, but Arya does that too and people love her for it. She had no inkling that this would produce any negative consequences for Ned sufficient to constitute a "betrayal".

Regarding what consequence Sansa's going to Cersei had, I don't think it affected Ned's failed coup at all. At most, it may have impacted whether or not the household got away, but I'm unclear on that point as well. The household was still getting ready to leave when they were ambushed (Arya was still having her lesson), and you would think Cersei would have sent men to lock down the Tower of the Hand anyway (as well as the ports). But then, Cersei's kind of a moron, so...?

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Bran climbed despite his parents` wishes, Arya was always disobedient. I imagine Jon and Robb also did something against their father`s wishes. This act of disobedience wasn`t something unheard of. It`s just misinterpreted as betrayal.

I disagree, Bran's betrayal of Cat when he climbed (!) was so severe he should be called Bran the Betrayer.

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I never thought Sansa was guilty of betrayal. Ned confronted Cersei with the truth about Joffrey, and gave her an ultimatum to leave with her children before Robert got back. Ned gave Cersei the motive and opportunity to betray him, Sansa really didn't tell her anything all that important, it affected her and Arya getting away more than anything else. She screwed herself over.

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Yes, Sansa's betrayal didn't change much but it was still a betrayal despite Ned being quicker to sabotage himself.

She was told not to tell anything and she knew Jaime attacked her father, knew that Joffrey lied about Mycah and tried to kill her sister and that Cersei ordered Lady to be killed. Yet she still went to Lannisters.

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How was going to Cersei betraying her family? She was defying them, certainly, but Arya does that too and people love her for it. She had no inkling that this would produce any negative consequences for Ned sufficient to constitute a "betrayal".

Regarding what consequence Sansa's going to Cersei had, I don't think it affected Ned's failed coup at all. At most, it may have impacted whether or not the household got away, but I'm unclear on that point as well. The household was still getting ready to leave when they were ambushed (Arya was still having her lesson), and you would think Cersei would have sent men to lock down the Tower of the Hand anyway (as well as the ports). But then, Cersei's kind of a moron, so...?

I am not talking about the consequences which I agree did not matter in the end but her intent. It never struck her that her old man might have good reasons, simply because she was too stupid. I recall Ned tellimg them that the situation was dangerous even if he did not go into specifics.

Yes my father tells me we might be in danger and now I must go to someone with higher authority to have his commands which really are family business countermanded. Hmm, who will I choose? Wait, yes that's it. I'll go to the cruel woman who ordered my pet killed.

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Ned was doing what he thought was right. By telling Cersei to leave before he told Robert, he was trying to give her and her children a way out that wouldn't end like Rhaegars kids.

Sansa, without knowing the truth behind anything, told the Queen (who she thought was trustworthy) that her Father wanted to send her and her sister back to winterfell. Hoping, I'm assuming here, that the queen would have a chat with Ned about the betrothal and things would be the same again, not the way it turned out.

It's Cersei who's at fault, she, as usual, jumped the shark (almost made a stark pun there). If anything it would have been Ned's admittance to her that would cause her to act out in fear for herself and her children, rather than some child saying her father is sending her home. But had they realized how fucked up Cersei's thought process was, they wouldn't have said a god damn thing to her.

Therefore I blame Cersei for acting a fool

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Well GRRM himself said that she needs to be held accountable.

Ned shares more of the blame for being stupid.

However, the whole idea of she only prevented Arya and Sansa from escaping is important. Sansa being there is leverage Cersei can use. Cersei gets Ned to confess because of Sansa. Joffrey now has a legitimate reason to kill him.

I think she did know that it was dangerous because right in front of Arya and Sansa he told Sansa that they need to leave because his men were dying and Robert didn't do anything so I have never agreed with complaints about him only telling Arya the situation when he told both of them that lives were in danger.

Sansa said send Arya back.

“Send Arya away, she started it…just let me stay.”

“Sansa, I’m not sending you away for fighting…I want you back in Winterfell for your own safety. Three of my men were cut down like dogs not a league from where we sit, and what does Robert do? He goes hunting.”

Arya was chewing at her lip in that disgusting way she had. “Can we take Syrio back with us?” “Who cares about your stupid dancing master?” Sansa flared.

I have more of a problem with her support of Joffrey after he tried to kill her sister.

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