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Let`s discuss Sansa`s so-called betrayal to her father


Mladen

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I'll go to the cruel woman who ordered my pet killed.

She didn't think Cersei was cruel. She thought Cersei was her friend.

However, the whole idea of she only prevented Arya and Sansa from escaping is important.

Which is questionable in and of itself.

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Betraying implies malicious intent. Frankly, I'm disgusted with people who use that word to describe a twelve year old child's actions in this regard.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/betray

No malicious intent is not technically required to classify something as betrayal and Yes she is a traitor and will hopefully pay the price before the story is over.

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The point here is that she didn't do what her father told her to. Inside she was going to be rebellious. becoming an automatic prisoner. w/out chance to escape. with in the book Cersie states that Sansa coming to her was a plus. "she had felt as wicked as Arya that morning" Sansa knows what she is doing is a betrayal of her fathers trust. plain and simple. even Tyrion can't believe how naïve she is. It's not to say that Sansa is totally at fault but she sure didn't help matters making herself an automatic prisoner. And tipping the time frame of actions.

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Bran climbed despite his parents` wishes, Arya was always disobedient. I imagine Jon and Robb also did something against their father`s wishes. This act of disobedience wasn`t something unheard of. It`s just misinterpreted as betrayal.

None of this involved getting another family to help you against your family though. I dislike that action for this. I know that Joffrey was her bethroted, but she had Mycah's death to reflect on, so the trust she placed in both Cersei and Joffrey seems at least a little unreasonable.

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She was present when Cersei ordered the "execution" of Lady. If she still thought that Cersei was her or anybodys friend that only proves she is soft of wits.

I actually agree that this part of Sansa's characterization is probably the weakest part of GRRM's writing of her, which I otherwise find a very plausible portrayal of a young girl, but the point there seems to rely a lot on the idea that Sansa believes the then-widely-disseminated notion that the queen, etc. are inherently good, so long as they look their parts. For much of the first book she can't process how their actions don't correspond to her idealized versions of them.

She later recalls Lady being killed as a reason why the queen was evil.

In retrospect.

"she had felt as wicked as Arya that morning" Sansa knows what she is doing is a betrayal of her fathers trust. plain and simple.

She acknowledges she's disobeying him. Which Arya does regularly.

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I actually agree that this part of Sansa's characterization is probably the weakest part of GRRM's writing of her, which I otherwise find a very plausible portrayal of a young girl, but the point there seems to rely a lot on the idea that Sansa believes the then-widely-disseminated notion that the queen, etc. are inherently good, so long as they look their parts. For much of the first book she can't process how their actions don't correspond to her idealized versions of them.

In retrospect.

Sansa has Arya there to make the villain. Joffrey tries to kill Arya. She tells Arya to stop spoiling it. Cersei kills Lady. Arya is entirely at fault. She feels negative towards her sister but not Cersei or the Lannisters until they kill Ned.

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http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/betray

No malicious intent is not technically required to classify something as betrayal and Yes she is a traitor and will hopefully pay the price before the story is over.

Woah! Are you saying Sansa hasn't suffered enough already? :shocked: Her father was beheaded right in front of her. She was beaten and abused by Joffrey and forced into a marriage with Tyrion. "She is a traitor and will hopefully pay the price before the story is over?" Did we read the same books?

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Woah! Are you saying Sansa hasn't suffered enough already? :shocked: Her father was beheaded right in front of her. She was beaten and abused by Joffrey and forced into a marriage with Tyrion. "She is a traitor and will hopefully pay the price before the story is over?" Did we read the same books?

Some of the Sansa haters really do scare me just a little...

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She was present when Cersei ordered the "execution" of Lady. If she still thought that Cersei was her or anybodys friend that only proves she is soft of wits.

Then I guess her father should not have let her assume that she was to marry into that family and become that woman's daughter-in-law. Then after dangling the promise of becoming Queen of the Seven Kingdoms in front of her, uprooting her from her home, pulling her away from her mother - and most importantly - never bothering to pull her aside and give her a stronger and more realistic understanding of the pit of vipers she is getting into - her father pulls the rug out from under her.

Indeed, if Ned thought it was so very dangerous for them to remain in Kings Landing, then he probably shouldn't have let Arya out of the house to go play *after* he had already told Cersei he knew what was what. He should have those girls under lock and key until they were ready to bolt in the night.

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Yes, Sansa's betrayal didn't change much but it was still a betrayal despite Ned being quicker to sabotage himself.

She was told not to tell anything and she knew Jaime attacked her father, knew that Joffrey lied about Mycah and tried to kill her sister and that Cersei ordered Lady to be killed. Yet she still went to Lannisters.

Agreed.

She put her own perceived interests above the well fair of her family, and not for the first time, this simple fact can not be brushed away or dismissed, imo.

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Indeed, if Ned thought it was so very dangerous for them to remain in Kings Landing, then her probably shouldn't have let Arya out of the house to go play *after* he had already told Cersei he knew what was what. He should have those girls under lock and key until they were ready to bolt in the night.

Parenting wasn't exactly Eddard's strong suit.

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Woah! Are you saying Sansa hasn't suffered enough already? :shocked: Her father was beheaded right in front of her. She was beaten and abused by Joffrey and forced into a marriage with Tyrion. "She is a traitor and will hopefully pay the price before the story is over?" Did we read the same books?

To me she is the most boring POV character of all. She is the Westeros version of an airhead. I don't much care what happens to her but yes I would have been very happy if she had been beheaded by Cersei. Then I wouldn't have been forced to plough through her chapters of endless simpering.

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Not necessarily. One can betray another's trust without wanting to harm said person, for instance.

Yet I only see that word being thrown around by people who dislike/hate Sansa and think she deserves punishment for it.

You know who betrayed Ned? Littlefinger did. He acted as his friend and betrayed him with the intention of having him killed. Using "betrayal" to accuse Sansa of this tells me a lot about that person's ethics, to be honest.

Heck, I think Ned betrayed Sansa first. He knew what Joffrey was but proceeded to keep her in the dark. If he had told her the truth instead of a dismissing "I'll tell you later, but I'm calling off your bethrothal to the next-in-line Prince Joffrey whom you clearly seem to be in love with and want to marry him above all else. Hope you don't do anything about it, we're in danger.", I might have agreed what she did was such a horrible thing.

He didn't do that though, he's the adult here, a parent. He should have posted guards on her door or just told the damn truth. Even after the Mycah incident, he thinks Sansa should be faithful to him until he discovers that he's bastard-born, then the bells start tolling in his head. Sansa acted as she was raised to act here, she had been told from the day she could walk that her goal in life is to marry the best possible husband and be faithful to him, to always take his side. Ned agreed with that. Knowing all of this, what she's done was definitely not an act of "betrayal".

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To me she is the most boring POV character of all. She is the Westeros version of an airhead. I don't much care what happens to her but yes I would have been very happy if she had been beheaded by Cersei. Then I wouldn't have been forced to plough through her chapters of endless simpering.

Being boring and naïve means she deserves to die? dafuq? Sansa has grown enormously throughout the series as a character. She has terrible experiences and you hope she dies? What the hell? :shocked:

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That's Ned own fault. LF told Ned not to trust him and was rude to him right to his face.

Ned did say something like Joffrey is no Prince Aemon but he didn't get into specifics and he said he will find someone better for her.

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