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Let`s discuss Sansa`s so-called betrayal to her father


Mladen

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Should have gotten her Quentyn Martell.

Martells are the best.

Lannisters the Worst.

Maybe on her end.

For him I actually liked that he was one of the few male characters that seemed to prefer the more attainable/girl next door than the trophy/beautiful girl i.e. Yronwood girl/Drinkwater twins vs. Dany. I think it's more true to real life. Not everyone has the same taste and this is one of the few times where I saw it shown.

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Honestly for me trying to kill my sister and wanting my dog dead would be a dealbreaker but it's not for her.

She did told him that she didn't want someone nice or whatever but that she wanted Joffrey instead.

See, that's because she at that point though Joffrey was all of those things (brave, gentle, strong) because she's a child, and because Joffrey had made amendments to her in the Tourney feast, acting gallant and kind and winning her heart again.

It is important to understand her mindset to not think of her anything less than a naive child, because Sansa's idealistic worldview is a huge part of her character. She tries to fit in everyone and everything around her to that worldview, almost too stubbornly at times because she doesn't want to accept the fact that the world may be anything worse than that. It is a little girl's dream life, and I find that believable for a child her age, her time.

She's somewhat spoiled in AGoT, as many highborn girls (even all of the Stark children were a bit spoiled in the first book) are. But that doesn't mean she's a bad person, just a growing-up girl. That's why I don't think anything she has done in the first book deserves such vitriol, because she's an idealistic little girl who means well most of the time.

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See, that's because she at that point though Joffrey was all of those things (brave, gentle, strong) because she's a child, and because Joffrey had made amendments to her in the Tourney feast, acting gallant and kind and winning her heart again.

It is important to understand her mindset to not think of her anything less than a naive child, because Sansa's idealistic worldview is a huge part of her character. She tries to fit in everyone and everything around her to that worldview, almost too stubbornly at times because she doesn't want to accept the fact that the world may be anything worse than that. It is a little girl's dream life, and I find that believable for a child her age, her time.

She's somewhat spoiled in AGoT, as many highborn girls (even all of the Stark children were a bit spoiled in the first book) are. But that doesn't mean she's a bad person, just a growing-up girl. That's why I don't think anything she has done in the first book deserves such vitriol, because she's an idealistic little girl who means well most of the time.

There's a Maya Angelou quote that goes something like when someone shows you who they are believe them. Joffrey was showing her but she'd rather believe the ideal and blame everything on her sister.

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Dear God...

So now you're saying that because Sansa will never rise to the top in the game of thrones (which you have no way of knowing) there's no point to her being in the story? What? Sansa is one of the main characters. We see the politics and nuances of certain characters through her eyes and watch her journey through an extremely traumatic time in her life. The "overall plot?" What plot is this? The Song of Ice and Fire or the Game of Thrones?

If she indeed rises to the top that will be bad writing because it is pretty much a given that a player needs to look at people as chess pieces with no regard for their welfare. They are disposable units. I don't see how the simpering Sansa as she has been portrayed for five books can be turned into such a person in a believeable way. The Plot is both since they affect each other.

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If she indeed rises to the top that will be bad writing because it is pretty much a given that a player needs to look at people as chess pieces with no regard for their welfare. They are disposable units. I don't see how the simpering Sansa as she has been portrayed for five books can be turned into such a person in a believeable way. The Plot is both since they affect each other.

Remind me why this means that she should die? I can see her killing Littlefinger (or at least taking him out of the game) because of him being blinded by his desires. That will be her defining moment IMO.

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How exactly has she grown? She is still mostly the same. The person she is at the end of Dance is the same person anyone with normal intelligence would be at the beginning of Clash. That was the problem with Lysa, to much yappin and not enough scrappin. She should have skipped the speech and just tossed Sansa out the Moon Door .

So you're saying Lysa should have killed the heir to Winterfell, and as far as she knows her sister's only remaining child? And the reason for this is? Sansa is boring... honestly, no offense, but this is the wrong thread for you. It might be helpful to your cause if you put some thought into your ideas.

Also Sansa has an incredible amount of inner strength and resolve. Many characters that are loved for no reason but being boisterous whoring drunks *cough* Robert Baratheon *cough* has none at all; he is a grown man and King with a giant beard (which should really give you more authority, but it doesn't really do anything for him at all) , yet he's ashamed of many of his choices.

Sansa grows from her past mistakes; she acknowledges them, and lives with resolve to survive and flourish. Sansa handles the Lannisters a whole lot better than Robert. They might have had her cornered, but she stuck to her guns, her small acts of definace, and she found a way out. She knows she's the key to the North now, and she's resolved to use it to her advantage. Honestly, WERE we reading the same books?

Some of the Sansa haters really do scare me just a little...

As far as indicators go, it's a good way to know who to avoid in the future ;)

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& you know she basically said that Arya provoked Joffrey. She may have but that argument is always used when a male puts his hand on a female. That doesn't mean that Joffrey was in the right to go after Arya with a sword while she only had a stick and continue when she was unarmed.

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....

*sigh*

Look, im not fond of Sansa's actions in the first book, but upon a reread, i noticed something. Shes just a kid and doesnt know any better. Sansa in AGoT has her head so far in the clouds, she isnt seeing what everyone else is seeing. She wants Joff and Cersei to love her. She wants to have all the things shes heard about in the songs. Her going to Cersei is what a totally clueless 11 year old girl would do. "omfg i dont wanna leave this place! Its everything i ever dreamed of! Please dont make me leave!" Ned was already up shit creek without a paddle. This may have just sped things along. And the girl has paid dearly for her "crime." Shes lived in abject misery ever since.

Yeah, the Lady/Joff/Arya thing was gnarly, but later, when in front of Robert, she tries to cover everyone's ass. "i dont remember...I dont know...it all happened so fast i just..." Arya screams out "LIAR!" Sansa IS lying here, but she isnt pinning blame out where everyone can hear it. She blames Arya in her thoughts, but outwardly not so much.

Poor Sansa is hella slow on the uptake but eventually she realizes that everything she did here was assy and bullshit. And finally pins the blame where it should have been: Joff and Cersei.

All of this is a part of her character development. Sansa knew fuck all what was going on at that time. Now she knows and is paying more attention to things around her.

If you recall, Arya almost went with Gold Cloak guy when confronted during a Syrio lesson. Its Syrio who points out the oddity of it all, and tells her to gtfo. All the Stark kids have their less-than-intelligent moments. Sansa's is glaring but she has been held accountable for it.

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There's a Maya Angelou quote that goes something like when someone shows you who they are believe them. Joffrey was showing her but she'd rather believe the ideal and blame everything on her sister.

Fair enough, I was just trying to explain her mindset to people so they might try to see the situation from her point of view. But if you can't sympathize with her still, that's your choice. I find even AGoT Sansa an admirable character because I was a dreamer like her at that age and understand how defying your family or reality to believe what you want to believe relatable. She's had her faults but they only make me like her more, because she learns from them (however devastating they may be).

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Fair enough, I was just trying to explain her mindset to people so they might try to see the situation from her point of view. But if you can't sympathize with her still, that's your choice. I find even AGoT Sansa an admirable character because I was a dreamer like her at that age and understand how defying your family or reality to believe what you want to believe relatable. She's had her faults but they only make me like her more, because she learns from them (however devastating they may be).

Even if I defied my family it would stop at the point where someone was trying to harm my sister or my dog. Those two are no nos. No guy is worth that. Any guy that is appealing to me can be replaced. There is likely someone somewhere else who is better. He's not worthy of me anyways if he thinks it's okay to harm my sister.

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....

*sigh*

Look, im not fond of Sansa's actions in the first book, but upon a reread, i noticed something. Shes just a kid and doesnt know any better. Sansa in AGoT has her head so far in the clouds, she isnt seeing what everyone else is seeing. She wants Joff and Cersei to love her. She wants to have all the things shes heard about in the songs. Her going to Cersei is what a totally clueless 11 year old girl would do. "omfg i dont wanna leave this place! Its everything i ever dreamed of! Please dont make me leave!" Ned was already up shit creek without a paddle. This may have just sped things along. And the girl has paid dearly for her "crime." Shes lived in abject misery ever since.

Yeah, the Lady/Joff/Arya thing was gnarly, but later, when in front of Robert, she tries to cover everyone's ass. "i dont remember...I dont know...it all happened so fast i just..." Arya screams out "LIAR!" Sansa IS lying here, but she isnt pinning blame out where everyone can hear it. She blames Arya in her thoughts, but outwardly not so much.

Poor Sansa is hella slow on the uptake but eventually she realizes that everything she did here was assy and bullshit. And finally pins the blame where it should have been: Joff and Cersei.

All of this is a part of her character development. Sansa knew fuck all what was going on at that time. Now she knows and is paying more attention to things around her.

If you recall, Arya almost went with Gold Cloak guy when confronted during a Syrio lesson. Its Syrio who points out the oddity of it all, and tells her to gtfo. All the Stark kids have their less-than-intelligent moments. Sansa's is glaring but she has been held accountable for it.

This.

Flo, I completely agree with you. Sansa's actions in GOT where there for a few reasons. She was a contrast to the tomboy, slightly suspicious Arya (who let's face it, isn't always the perfect judge of character either). Her delusions about chivalry and beauty also provided a high and might place for her to fall from, so she can rise again, smarter, with more strength of character. That is percisely what is fascinating about her. Not the speed with which she learns, but her capacity to learn while fooling everyone around her.

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Even if I defied my family it would stop at the point where someone was trying to harm my sister or my dog. Those two are no nos. No guy is worth that. Any guy that is appealing to me can be replaced. There is likely someone somewhere else who is better. He's not worthy of me anyways if he thinks it's okay to harm my sister.

But thats you. And maybe me as well. Sansa is not us. Shes a different person and has different ideals. Yes, its hard to "get" Sansa. I had a real hard time "getting" her actions in that instance and i still do. But alas, she isnt me or you. Perhaps thats what makes her rather interesting because she goes with the flow but eventually learns the truth. Even when she does, she keeps it bottled up. Sansa isnt as extroverted and outward like Arya.

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But thats you. And maybe me as well. Sansa is not us. Shes a different person and has different ideals. Yes, its hard to "get" Sansa. I had a real hard time "getting" her actions in that instance and i still do. But alas, she isnt me or you. Perhaps thats what makes her rather interesting because she goes with the flow but eventually learns the truth. Even when she does, she keeps it bottled up. Sansa isnt as extroverted and outward like Arya.

Right it isn't me. I don't relate to her and I dislike her actions in this instance. I'm explaining why.

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Even if I defied my family it would stop at the point where someone was trying to harm my sister or my dog. Those two are no nos. No guy is worth that. Any guy that is appealing to me can be replaced. There is likely someone somewhere else who is better. He's not worthy of me anyways if he thinks it's okay to harm my sister.

but isn't that the point? Her superficial love, and adoration of beauty and shiny things has made her blind to the reality around her. She didn't want to believe that Joff wanted to harm Arya, she wanted to believe that it was all a misunderstanding. I think GRRM wrote that kind of "love is blind" scenario brilliantly. I think in that scene it is actually more difficult to defend Sansa's actions. Although what she does aferwards when she loses everything, at least to me, she redeemed herself completely.

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Here I will quote Sansa`s POV from GOT and Tyrion`s from COK

From these two quotes, we can draw several conclusions. First, Sansa`s indiscretion happened on the very same day Ned confronted Cersei, just several hours passed between Sansa`s visit and the beginning of fights. Second, Sansa told Cersei only what she knew: that her father is sending her and Arya to Winterfell. Third and most important, all machinations were already done by the time Sansa came to Cersei. LF already bought the loyalty of Golden Cloaks before Sansa came. What is then the ultimate conclusion?

Sansa had so little with Ned`s death. She may have something with deaths of his men, buit even that is questionable. What Sansa brought to Cersei`s table was important in a way, that Cersei knew when to react, but with already bought Golden Cloaks, and Ned`s warning, Cersei already had all she needed.

So, why do we insisting on claiming Sansa betrayed Ned in some horrible way? She did nothing any of Ned`s children haven`t already done. The problem is that Sansa`s little indiscertion is connected with terrible outcome, and that`s why we separate her from others. Interestingly, Sansa behaved here like a true Stark, or at least just like her aunt. Without thinking of consequence, she pursued love, and ultiately paid the price for turning the back to her family.

What do you think? Am I right or wrong and why? And did Sansa really betray Ned in such horrible way some posters on the forum claim she did?

I agree with almost everything except "like her aunt." We don't know 100% of Lyanna's situation. And if it was what the board generally believes (she went with Rhaegar willingly), she did a lot worse than Sansa. She was older and definitely more mature than Sansa. Also, there is a huge difference between trying to ask the king to intercede and running away. Sansa's plan was actually pretty responsible (if not for factors she knew nothing about, and Ned tried to keep from her). Lyanna's was not in the least. Even if she couldn't tell how bad it would be, she had to know running away would not be a good thing.

Overall, I never got the Sansa-blaming. She gave Cersei a great hostage. Beyond that... what did she change? Cersei knew Ned was going to do something. Everything else seems like a logical extension of that. She knew to watch the docks for Arya, but I can't think of how Sansa did anything to affect the plan. So, I don't get why Cersei credits her.

While she might not have understood what was at stake she was old enough to understand that you don't betray family.

Except she was not "betraying" her family. She was asking the queen if she could get the king to intercede. That is not betrayal. That is what people do. The king hears petitions. She did not know Cersei was an enemy. She did not know what it was about. She did not know the stakes. she knew her father was canceling her marriage. It's actually pretty normal to ask someone for help in convincing him that case.

Being boring and naïve means she deserves to die? dafuq? Sansa has grown enormously throughout the series as a character. She has terrible experiences and you hope she dies? What the hell? :shocked:

Some people are morally opposed to believing in character development.

When LF sighs and says something akin to "I must confess I killed Lysa" Sansa is horrified because she doesn't understand that it's a manipulative phrasing to evoke sympathy and actually believes he will tell the other lords and knights the truth. Not a sign of natural talent for the game imo.

So, 13 year old who spent most of her life sheltered (not only by her family, but as a political prisoner, she was out of the loop on the politics of the realm) isn't a master manipulator? You're right. Clearly she is a no talent hack. :rolleyes:

Honestly for me trying to kill my sister and wanting my dog dead would be a dealbreaker but it's not for her.

She did told him that she didn't want someone nice or whatever but that she wanted Joffrey instead.

:shocked: Because she had a choice? She was going to marry Joffery regardless. She could say, "Fuck all of you Lannister scum. I will hate you until my dying breath." And they would nod and ask her father when the wedding should be.

So, she did the rather reasonable thing and try to make them the best in that situation.

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Even if I defied my family it would stop at the point where someone was trying to harm my sister or my dog. Those two are no nos. No guy is worth that. Any guy that is appealing to me can be replaced. There is likely someone somewhere else who is better. He's not worthy of me anyways if he thinks it's okay to harm my sister.

And I understand and respect that. But as I wrote above, the situations are too different. Sansa and Arya don't get along well, and that's not an excuse for her to blame her sister, sure and that's a fault of her character. I don't put much value in their insults to each other because I think it's just sibling rivalry. But Sansa is trying to fit Joffrey into her idealistic view of perfect prince she grew up to believe, she doesn't realize what kind of a monster he can be until it's too late. If she had been with him out of malicious intent, had been glad that he attacked her sister or taken his side after Joffrey killed her father, then the hate against her would be perfectly valid. That's not true, though. Whatever she does, and thinks, is because she wants everything to be perfect and everyone to be honorable and good. And I find that admirable, even if it is a naive belief.

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Right it isn't me. I don't relate to her and I dislike her actions in this instance. I'm explaining why.

Yes, but to ignore the progress Sansa has made is a little sad. Poor thing has been through a lot and paid tenfold for what foolishness she did back then.

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but isn't that the point? Her superficial love, and adoration of beauty and shiny things has made her blind to the reality around her. She didn't want to believe that Joff wanted to harm Arya, she wanted to believe that it was all a misunderstanding. I think GRRM wrote that kind of "love is blind" scenario brilliantly. I think in that scene it is actually more difficult to defend Sansa's actions. Although what she does aferwards when she loses everything, at least to me, she redeemed herself completely.

I don't think it's love since she barely knew him at that point. It's just childish infatuation. She saw him harming Arya but said it was Arya's fault and that Arya should have been the one who died and not Lady.

I think she understands something was wrong there but puts all the blame at Arya's feet. If Joffrey acts like a monster it's because wicked little Arya provoked him. She probably deserved it.

Yes, but to ignore the progress Sansa has made is a little sad. Poor thing has been through a lot and paid tenfold for what foolishness she did back then.

A lot of characters have progressed. It's plot development.

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I don't think it's love since she barely knew him at that point. It's just childish infatuation. She saw him harming Arya but said it was Arya's fault and that Arya should have been the one who died and not Lady.

I think she understands something was wrong there but puts all the blame at Arya's feet. If Joffrey acts like a monster it's because wicked little Arya provoked him. She probably deserved it.

A lot of characters have progressed. It's plot development.

oh, of course it isn't love, but Sansa thinks it's love, and she acts accordingly, doing all the things she's been taught to do around her future husband. There is definitely an element of wifely duties in her actions, and of course that she needs to act in accordance with being the future Queen. On top of which she already has a strained relationshp with her sister, and is used to not understanding Arya's actions.

What she says later about Arya was out of anger, she obviously didn't mean it. Half the things the two say to each other they don't really mean

(on a personal note, that's exactly the kind of relationship I *sometimes* have with my sis :D)

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