Jump to content

Let`s discuss Sansa`s so-called betrayal to her father


Mladen

Recommended Posts

There's a saying that you can survive your enemies.....it's your friends who will get you in the end.

The truly fatal blows to Ned came from two of the people who loved him most: his wife and his daughter. His wife when she seized Tyrion and took him to the Eyrie, prompting Jaimie to attack Ned in the street. Sansa when she went to Cersei, cutting off Ned's escape (he would never leave the city without her) and letting the queen know it was time to act.

Ned couldn't even be saved from himself when he refused Renly and Varys's offers and instead relied on Littlefinger's advice.

Your wife, your daughter, and yourself. It's a fatal combination.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There's a saying that you can survive your enemies.....it's your friends who will get you in the end.

The truly fatal blows to Ned came from two of the people who loved him most: his wife and his daughter. His wife when she seized Tyrion and took him to the Eyrie, prompting Jaimie to attack Ned in the street. Sansa when she went to Cersei, cutting off Ned's escape (he would never leave the city without her) and letting the queen know it was time to act.

Ned couldn't even be saved from himself when he refused Renly and Varys's offers and instead relied on Littlefinger's advice.

Your wife, your daughter, and yourself. It's a fatal combination.

The truly fatal blows to Ned came from two people, that much is true, but they weren't Cat and Sansa, but Joff and Littlefinger... ok, I guess Illyn Payne too, if you really want to be a stickler about it.

It's very clearly spelled out in the book what Ned's life really is worth. NO ONE wanted him dead, because everyone knows it would lead to chaos. Really it just isn't surprising that the people who facilitated it (the chief manipulator and chief commander) are affcionados of chaos.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There's a saying that you can survive your enemies.....it's your friends who will get you in the end.

The truly fatal blows to Ned came from two of the people who loved him most: his wife and his daughter. His wife when she seized Tyrion and took him to the Eyrie, prompting Jaimie to attack Ned in the street. Sansa when she went to Cersei, cutting off Ned's escape (he would never leave the city without her) and letting the queen know it was time to act.

Ned couldn't even be saved from himself when he refused Renly and Varys's offers and instead relied on Littlefinger's advice.

Your wife, your daughter, and yourself. It's a fatal combination.

Not to mention that his best friend turned into a useless drunken sot in the years after the rebellion, and is more interested in sending assassins after pregnant girls rather than taking control of his kingdom's affairs. And Ned himself was stuck in a political position he was in no way suited (or capable) for. In fact, Ned's loyalty towards Robert is probably the biggest factor in his downfall.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

oh, of course it isn't love, but Sansa thinks it's love, and she acts accordingly, doing all the things she's been taught to do around her future husband. There is definitely an element of wifely duties in her actions, and of course that she needs to act in accordance with being the future Queen. On top of which she already has a strained relationshp with her sister, and is used to not understanding Arya's actions.

What she says later about Arya was out of anger, she obviously didn't mean it. Half the things the two say to each other they don't really mean

(on a personal note, that's exactly the kind of relationship I *sometimes* have with my sis :D)

She may think so but I don't think love applies to this situation because neither of them were in love. They don't know each other. The Mycah incident was early on.

She is willing to do that until they do something that really matters to her and that's killing Ned. Joffrey trying to harm Arya wasn't enough.

Her overall attitude was one of Arya was provoking him. While it was going on instead of telling Joffrey to stop as he was the one who was armed she tells Arya that she was spoiling it. If Joffrey wasn't so dumb or if he had any ounce of the skill his father had he would have killed her. If Sansa does think Joffrey is the knightly type of prince she's always dreamed of btw he should be able to kill Arya easily as he is trained in arms i.e. her love of the Dragonknight's skills.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I love all you guys defending Sansa. :grouphug:

It gives me hope for humanity.

thanks! :D

Now to my confession: I actually couldn't stand her after her actions in GOT ("WHY, Sansa??? Why??")

But then I actually *read* the text and realized "oh wow, this is a smart character, and a chick who's actually growing", and I did a complete 180 :) Sansa and Arya are my top chicks now!

I always thought one of the most beautiful human traits is to change your mind when sufficient evidence was provided... sometimes you really do get to witness that here, and it's glorious :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

thanks! :D

Now to my confession: I actually couldn't stand her after her actions in GOT ("WHY, Sansa??? Why??")

But then I actually *read* the text and realized "oh wow, this is a smart character, and a chick who's actually growing", and I did a complete 180 :) Sansa and Arya are my top chicks now!

I always thought one of the most beautiful human traits is to change your mind when sufficient evidence was provided... sometimes you really do get to witness that here, and it's glorious :)

I agree %100. I've seen the TV series first and I was pro-Arya, but I didn't hate Sansa, I was indifferent to her. I sympathized with her after Ned's execution.

I began reading the books afterwards and she instantly became my favourite because her ideals were so similar to mine and I admired her endurance and inner strength. Arya is still in my top 5 though, but Sansa is one of the best literary characters in the fantasy genre in my opinion, I find her unique and fascinating. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

She may think so but I don't think love applies to this situation because neither of them were in love. They don't know each other. The Mycah incident was early on.

She is willing to do that until they do something that really matters to her and that's killing Ned. Joffrey trying to harm Arya wasn't enough.

Her overall attitude was one of Arya was provoking him. While it was going on instead of telling Joffrey to stop as he was the one who was armed she tells Arya that she was spoiling it. If Joffrey wasn't so dumb or if he had any ounce of the skill his father had he would have killed her. If Sansa does think Joffrey is the knightly type of prince she's always dreamed of btw he should be able to kill Arya easily as he is trained in arms i.e. her love of the Dragonknight's skills.

exactly, she's telling Arya she's "spoiling it". I think the "it" here is her fantasy of shiny love and unicorn farts. Honestly when I say love here, I don't mean true, unconditional love, which is actually pretty rare in the series. Sansa has a vision of what her courtship with "perfect" Joffrey is supposed to look like, and at that moment Arya's resistance to being anything but the perfect lady is "spoiling it". I mean, just looking at the choice of words, what is there to spoil? Her day, or maybe her promenade with Joff? Sure, that much is true, but at this point she's already angry at Arya for running off with Mycah, and refusing to spend the day with the princess, so really she isn't just telling her "you're spoiling my day", she's saying "you're spoiling my perfect fantasy".

I think it's this blindfold of a fantasy that keeps her from seeing the real threat that Joff actually poses to Arya. And yes, she is culpable later on for not telling the truth, (though wether or not it would have done her much good is debatable) but while the event actually takes place, from her perspective it's Arya that is the threat and not Joffrey. This is a key aspect to Sansa's characterization, because the pink chivalry bubble she lives in gets torn up pretty brutaly, and she grows from there.

I don't like her for what she did to Arya there, but if you truly view things from her perspective you can understand why she did what she did (even if you disagree with it)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

exactly, she's telling Arya she's "spoiling it". I think the "it" here is her fantasy of shiny love and unicorn farts. Honestly when I say love here, I don't mean true, unconditional love, which is actually pretty rare in the series. Sansa has a vision of what her courtship with "perfect" Joffrey is supposed to look like, and at that moment Arya's resistance to being anything but the perfect lady is "spoiling it". I mean, just looking at the choice of words, what is there to spoil? Her day, or maybe her promenade with Joff? Sure, that much is true, but at this point she's already angry at Arya for running off with Mycah, and refusing to spend the day with the princess, so really she isn't just telling her "you're spoiling my day", she's saying "you're spoiling my perfect fantasy".

I think it's this blindfold of a fantasy that keeps her from seeing the real threat that Joff actually poses to Arya. And yes, she is culpable later on for not telling the truth, (though wether or not it would have done her much good is debatable) but while the event actually takes place, from her perspective it's Arya that is the threat and not Joffrey. This is a key aspect to Sansa's characterization, because the pink chivalry bubble she lives in gets torn up pretty brutaly, and she grows from there.

I don't like her for what she did to Arya there, but if you truly view things from her perspective you can understand why she did what she did (even if you disagree with it)

I don't think there is any degree of love. I'm not even talking on a friendship level. They are still strangers at that point.

Right Arya is fighting for her life in that instance but she is too focused on her dream of Joffrey.

Sansa saying that Arya was spoiling it is typical. She had already said Arya was ruining things and then wonders why Myrcella couldn't have been her sister instead.

"...her stupid sister was going to ruin everything...

Why couldn’t Arya be sweet and delicate and kind, like Princess Myrcella? She would have liked to have a sister like that"

As I said earlier when things go wrong she has Arya there to play the villain. Lady dying was Arya's fault. She changes her mind way after the fact. When Ned wants Sansa and Arya to leave KL she automatically says Arya is the bad one and she should be allowed to stay.

I don't think she didn't see the threat because she mentions that Arya looked frightened.

"Joffrey slashed at Arya with his sword, screaming obscenities, terrible words., filthy words. Arya darted back, frightened now, but Joffrey followed hounding her toward the woods, backing her up against a tree."

After Arya defends herself Joffrey is hurt so she used that to entirely place blame on Arya.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

she was a foolish child i didn't hold it against her since ned doomed himself already by telling cersei he knew sigh RIP Ned. Still i was pissed because these people got your wolf killed and you still trusted them come on. Hell no matter what age i was and some one killed my pet outta spite i'm not trusting them love or otherwise.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

First, Sansa`s indiscretion happened on the very same day Ned confronted Cersei, just several hours passed between Sansa`s visit and the beginning of fights. Second, Sansa told Cersei only what she knew: that her father is sending her and Arya to Winterfell. Third and most important, all machinations were already done by the time Sansa came to Cersei. LF already bought the loyalty of Golden Cloaks before Sansa came. What is then the ultimate conclusion?

Actually no. First the timeline: Ned meets with Cersei as soon as he wakes up from his milk of the poppy induced sleep. Robert is hunting with his squire/murderer. They meet during the day and Ned returns to his quarters to settle down for the night. He is awoken and summoned to visit Robert. While the time of night is unclear, it is late:

The Red Keep was dark and still as Cayn and Tomard escorted him across the inner bailey. The moon hung low over the walls, ripening toward full.

Robert gives him his will in Cersei's presence and Ned returns to his chambers. As he is leaving he thinks: The queen had gone; that was some small relief, at least. If she had any sense, Cersei would take her children and fly before the break of day, Ned thought. Sadly for him, she doesn't. He meets Renly who tells him:

Strike! Now while the castle sleeps.

Instead he asks for Littlefinger and tells Tomard: The Wind Witch sails on the evening tide.

When Littlefinger arrives they discuss Ned's plan. It's unclear whether Cersei has already met with him since she would most likely have been weighing her options. She couldn't know that Robert would be gravely injured until he returned and therefore, couldn't plan to move against Ned before then. Once he returned, could she have left his side to meet with Littlefinger? Hard to say. Did she meet with him after speaking with Ned and tell him Ned was a threat? Possibly but what reason could she give? Ned knows my deep dark secret? No but she might have made something else up however Cersei is not known for her talents in this area. Anyway, Littlefinger leaves Ned with the understanding that Ned plans to support Stannis and needs the gold cloaks that Littlefinger can buy. At this point, Littlefinger must have decided to betray Ned. But it is the middle of the night. Does he go immediately to the gold cloaks? He says he will go to Janos Slynt that very hour. Let's assume he did as he said. Still, the gold cloaks and Littlefinger would have to wait until the king dies to actually do anything to Ned. The waiting game begins because acting at the wrong time will cause the plan to fail. Too soon and it is treason. Too late and well, it's too late!

At dawn, Ned awakens and things seem to be proceeding as the normally do. He has breakfast later with the girls and Arya says that she has one last lesson with Syrio and will be finished and ready to go by noon and Sansa asks to say goodbye to Joffrey. Ned says no and Sansa runs to her room. Then leaves her room to find the Queen. So there is definitely enough time for Littlefinger to get the guard together but they can do nothing until Robert dies. When Sansa goes to Cersei the king is still alive but now, Cersei realizes how quickly she must move and escorts Sansa back to her room a new development since there was no guard there before. And it is after she is returned to her room that the killing begins because the king is finally dead:

Even within the stout walls of Maegor's Holdfast, with the door closed and barred, it was hard not to be terrified when the killing began.

Ned is told an hour after breakfast that Robert is dead. Sansa has already seen the queen at this point. She goes right after breakfast. He tells Pycelle to summon the council and waits for them to arrive. They arrive and he tells them the plan and then he is summoned by Cersei. Sansa has come and gone and is locked in her room at this point and Ned is blind to what lies ahead completely due to his own mistakes. I want to stress that Ned had plenty of opportunities to do things differently but Ned is Ned. However Cersei acts when she does because she now knows when Ned is moving and she knows that she has his daughters. (She believes she has Arya, too, at this point)

So a great deal of time passes between Ned and Cersei meeting in the godswood and many things happen during that time. Sansa is not at all responsible for her father's capture but she is completely responsible for her capture which becomes the bargaining chip used against her father to condemn him to death after his confession. She is also responsible with letting Cersei now to move immediately which she does by taking Sansa prisoner and getting Joffrey and guards set up in the throne room. So it is only a partial culpability as the author says.

Sansa did NOT have any idea her actions would lead to such drastic measures. But she DEFINITELY knew the situation was critical enough for her father to send her home and that her father had given her instructions that she did not want to follow. Instead she wanted to have the queen force her father to give her what she wanted. And as many have already stated, her decision to trust Cersei after seeing her dark side is hard to understand even for an 11 year old.

The part that confuses me is that people say Ned should have told his daughter more. While I agree that more information would have been a huge plus, I have to wonder why we would expect that from Ned. Sansa is kept woefully in the dark about EVERYTHING. She is 11 but she seems years behind the other girls in the series who, yes, are slightly older. But can a year or two really make such a difference? Possibly, I guess. It just seems that we don't know much about how Ned communicated but shouldn't Sansa have known? I believe Ned was counting on Sansa's gentle, courteous nature and obedience when he told her his instructions and she even thinks to herself she's never done anything like this before. So while Ned misjudged how she would react to this extreme situation, his assumptions that she would do as she was told are logical. But what was Sansa accustomed to from her father? Did he normally give long explanations for his actions? Did she just choose to ignore his warnings of danger? I have no idea what the interactions of father and daughter were before but I'm not sure it's fair to say he should have said more to Sansa if he wasn't in the habit of talking much to begin with. Wasn't he a quiet brooder? Any ideas of whether Ned could be described as verbose or not?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Compare Sansa's betrayal to Edmure's at the Stone Mill. In both cases if Ned/Robb would have clarified the plan and strategy, the follower could have been more obedient.

I think Sansa's betrayal is a little worse, bc she's defying this order to stay with Mordane. That said, if Ned had said "Stay away from the Lannisters especially, we're feuding now." maybe Sansa would have more information so she didn't make that type of mistake.

However, I'm not saying she knew that talking to the Queen would put her family in danger. She was a child with limited judgment. Ultimately, this sort of charge goes more in the negligence, accidental homicide type of crime, not conspiracy to commit murder or anything of that level.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jeez, it was an honest mistake, she was a girl who was not only young but very innocent and naive with a wrong preconceived idea of Knights, Queens and Kings.

I remember once a friend of my grandmother asked her our phone number and my grandma said she didn't remembered it (we had just move in). I was about eight and I spoke aloud the number, because I thought my grandmother had indeed forgotten and I not only tried to be helpful but I wanted to be the "hero" of the moment, hoping they would say something like "oh, she's so smart, she does know". I was wrong: my grandma was lying to this person and I messed it up. And my grandma got mad at me that day because I sold her out. I obviously never meant to do that.

Sansa didn't realise what the situation was, and she probably thought it would be something simple like Cersei ordering Ned for her to stay due to the agreed engagement of her and Joffrey. She thought the Queen was her friend, and Lady died because of Arya, not because of Cersei. She had no idea what kind of things Cersei was able to do. Does she even know that Joffrey was Jaime's son?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sansa grows from her past mistakes; she acknowledges them, and lives with resolve to survive and flourish.

I suppose "learns from her mistakes" could be said of her if we disregard how long those lessons take however when, please tell me when "She acknowledges them"? I believe she says she will never trust another Lannister and that's about all I can think of.

Except she was not "betraying" her family. She was asking the queen if she could get the king to intercede. That is not betrayal. That is what people do. The king hears petitions. She did not know Cersei was an enemy.

When one asks the king to intercede between you and your father's secret command, it is generally considered a betrayal, especially in Westeros where your father has the right to make decisions for you. And saying that she did not know that Cersei was an enemy doesn't make Sansa look any better. She should have doubted her intentions given what she's already witnessed first hand.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I suppose "learns from her mistakes" could be said of her if we disregard how long those lessons take

???

what?

Since when does the verb "to learn" impose a time limit to do so?

ETA: Man, I wish the DMV did that :D If you can't learn to drive within 6 months like a conscious, normal, patient adult, you will never ever EVER learn to drive, no licence for you!.... driving in LA would be a dream, the kind of dream that only exists on the German Autobahn...

Why *don't* we do that? sigh...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wouldn't called it a betrayal because she didn't go to Cersei with the intent of telling Ned's plans. Sansa was oblivious to what was going on, yet there is no denying that what she told them was very significant to the success of Cersei's plan.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When one asks the king to intercede between you and your father's secret command, it is generally considered a betrayal, especially in Westeros where your father has the right to make decisions for you. And saying that she did not know that Cersei was an enemy doesn't make Sansa look any better. She should have doubted her intentions given what she's already witnessed first hand.

She wasn't bringing a petition to court. She was contacting the other person responsible for her engagement and her father's friend.

As for Cersei, killing Lady can easily be seen as an overreaction but not something that marks her as permanently evil. It should also be pointed out that it was in Sansa's best interest to look at her in the most positive light possible since she was going to become a part of her family whether she wanted to or not.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

exactly, she's telling Arya she's "spoiling it". I think the "it" here is her fantasy of shiny love and unicorn farts. Honestly when I say love here, I don't mean true, unconditional love, which is actually pretty rare in the series. Sansa has a vision of what her courtship with "perfect" Joffrey is supposed to look like, and at that moment Arya's resistance to being anything but the perfect lady is "spoiling it". I mean, just looking at the choice of words, what is there to spoil? Her day, or maybe her promenade with Joff? Sure, that much is true, but at this point she's already angry at Arya for running off with Mycah, and refusing to spend the day with the princess, so really she isn't just telling her "you're spoiling my day", she's saying "you're spoiling my perfect fantasy".

I think it's this blindfold of a fantasy that keeps her from seeing the real threat that Joff actually poses to Arya. And yes, she is culpable later on for not telling the truth, (though wether or not it would have done her much good is debatable) but while the event actually takes place, from her perspective it's Arya that is the threat and not Joffrey. This is a key aspect to Sansa's characterization, because the pink chivalry bubble she lives in gets torn up pretty brutaly, and she grows from there.

I don't like her for what she did to Arya there, but if you truly view things from her perspective you can understand why she did what she did (even if you disagree with it)

Pretty much.

Also :lmao: at unicorn farts.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...