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Official Court of Law V 14. Grand Maester Pycelle.


SeanF

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While I find it difficult to disagree with the guilty verdicts for treason, I am curious why exile is such a popular sentence - since we have a convicted traitor on our hands why would we exile him abroad to foment more mischief?

As far as I can tell, it's because people want to send him away but don't trust him at the Wall.

I honestly don't understand why the exile option is even there. No one is sentenced to exile. They run away in order to avoid their actual punishment or results from a bad political turn (such as Viserys and Dany who didn't actually commit any crimes).

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Treason

The Defendant is charged with four counts of treason:-

1.1 The Defendant counselled King Aerys Targaryen, Second of His Name, to open the gates of King’s Landing to the army of Lord Tywin Lannister, in the knowledge that Lord Tywin was an enemy to King Aerys.

1.2 The Defendant dismissed Maester Colemon, who was tending the Hand of the King, Lord Jon Arryn, following his poisoning, and then neglected his treatment, in order that Lord Arryn should die.

1.3 The Defendant concealed his knowledge of incest between Queen Cersei Lannister and her brother, Ser Jaime Lannister (alias “the Kingslayer”) from King Robert Baratheon, First of His Name.

1.4 The Defendant betrayed the secrets of Tyrion Lannister, Acting Hand of the King, to the Queen Regent Cersei Lannister.

Oathbreaking

The Defendant is charged with two counts of Oathbreaking:-

2.1 The Defendant has repeatedly acknowledged that in his capacity as Grand Maester, he has served House Lannister, in violation of his Maester’s oath to serve the Realm;

2.2 The Defendant has repeatedly violated his Maester’s vow of chastity.

Incitement to Commit Murder

3. The Defendant counselled the murder of Princess (Khaleesi) Daenerys Targaryen at a meeting of the Small Council.

Manslaughter

4. The Defendant is charged with the manslaughter of Lord John Arryn, as detailed in Charge 1.2

Perjury

The Defendant is charged with two counts of perjury.

5.1 During the trial of Tyrion Lannister, Master of Coin, the Defendant lied that he had stolen The Strangler and other poisons from his stores.

5.2 The Defendant falsely alleged that Queen Margaery Tyrell had obtained the abortificient, Moon Tea, from him, in order that she be condemned for adultery and treason

Treason

Charge 1.1 Guilty- We have sufficient witness testimony and a confession from Pycelle to Tyrion Lannister in which he admitted to always being loyal to House Lannister. He also made the same declaration to Cersei Lannister in AFFC.

1.2 Guilty-There is enough circumstantial evidence to support a conviction of this charge, Pycelle claims innocence in this accusation. However Jon Arryn was an open threat to House Lannister and Pycelle is a loyal servant to the Lannisters.

1.3 Guilty-He admitted to having knowledge of the carnal affair between Cersei and Jamie Lannister. He also admitted that Jon Arryn had to be silenced because he was investigating and was about to find out the truth.

1.4 Not Guilty-Pycelle does not serve Tyrion Lannister, he served with Tyrion Lannister as an equal. He did his duty by informing the queen of plots being made by the hand of the king.

Oathbreaking

2.1 Guilty-He also broke sworn oaths to not reveal the secrets of the royal house an oath which every maester makes to the lord they serve.

2.2 Guilty-He was caught with a whore in his bed.

Incitement to commit murder

3 Guilty-We Pycelle's words from the text in which he lobbied for the murder of Daenerys Targaryen and her unborn child. At this time the complainant was not a threat to the realm and in fact was not even in the realm.

Manslaughter

4 Not Guilty-I would have preferred a charge of negligent homicide since we know Pycelle did not administer the poison to Jon Arryn himself.

Perjury

5.1 Not Guilty-There is no way to be certain that Pycelle lied in this instance, Tyrion did steal potions from Pycelle. I find Pycelle's testimony to be within reason considering the circumstances.

5.2 Guilty-It is evident that Pycelle fabricated details after the queen reagent pressured him to do so.

Considering the impact that the defendants crimes had on the entire realm, this judge orders that Grand Maester Pycelle be stripped of his maesters chain and title, stripped of all his worldly possessions, and sentence him to death by hanging. May the seven have mercy on his soul.

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As far as I can tell, it's because people want to send him away but don't trust him at the Wall.

I honestly don't understand why the exile option is even there. No one is sentenced to exile. They run away in order to avoid their actual punishment or results from a bad political turn (such as Viserys and Dany who didn't actually commit any crimes).

I agree a sentence of exile makes no sense here and we have precedent that the penalty for treason is death.
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Treason.

1.1. Guilty, the defendant knew Lord Tywin intended harm to the king and that the people of King's Landing would suffer greatly as a consequence of his actions.

1.2. Guilty, the defendant allowed the hand to die to curry favour with the queen.

1.3. Guilty, the defendant deliberately kept information important to the line of succession to himself, this being a major contributor to the war of the five kings.

1.4. Not guilty, the defendant was right to impart information to the queen about her daughter.

Oath breaking.

2.1. Guilty, the defendant should be loyal to the realm above all else.

2.2. Not guilty, there is not enough evidence to prove this, also it is a matter that should be dealt with by the Citadel rather than this court.

Incitement to commit murder.

3. Not guilty, the suggestion to assassinate Daenerys Targaryen was thought to be in the best interests of the realm. However it should be taken into consideration that this attempt was what convinced Khal Drogo to move towards an invasion, this bad advice could have cost the realm dearly and if Pycelle is found not guilty then it must be considered that he should step down from his position due to incompetence.

Manslaughter.

4. Not guilty of manslaughter but guilty of murder, the defendant wanted his victim to die and so he did as a direct result of Pycelle's actions.

Perjury.

5.1. Guilty, the defendant embellished actual crime committed by Tyrion Lannister who only stole a potion that would give diorea.

5.2. Guilty, the defendant lied to curry more favour with the queen regent and house Lannister.

Many of the defendants actions have led to deaths of innocent people, some deliberate while others through unwise or false council. The verdict is that Grand Maester Pycelle be hung from the neck until dead.

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While death by hanging, drawing and quartering has been applied to convicted traitors, it would be regarded as cruel and unusual punishment by this Court. We have also abolished death by burning, and death by flaying as punishments.

Perhaps this could be reconsidered, if there were overwhelming support for their reintroduction among jurors.

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Following historical precedents from our world, I wonder if there's scope to introduce some more severe punishments but only for specific crimes, so that their use is a measure of the seriousness of the offence, rather than how much a given judge dislikes the perpetrator (or likes their victims). Thus hanging, drawing and quartering only for treason; burning only for, say, heresy, and so on. I'm inclined to support the abolition of flaying, especially since it's likely it would be considered criminal if it came up before this court; likewise, I think we can live without the burning (again, we've condemned people for it in the past). I have no strong feelings on the HDQ, but I wonder if it would be applied overenthusiastically if available and is therefore better off the table.

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I can't see any precedent for Hanging, Drawing and Quartering in Westeros.

By and large, I think jurors have approached these cases responsibly, and handed down appropriate punishments, rather than just saying "I hate X. Death by flaying".

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1.1 Guilty.

1.2 Guilty

1.3 Guilty

1.4 Innocent. Betraying secrets that have a major impact on the future of the Kingdom to the Regent is not Treason by any reasonable definition.

2.1 Guilty

2.2 Guilty

3. Guilty

4. Guilty

5.1. Innocent due to lack of evidence he is lying.

5.2 Innocent as per 5.1.

Verdict: death by sword.

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By and large, I think jurors have approached these cases responsibly, and handed down appropriate punishments, rather than just saying "I hate X. Death by flaying".

Most of the time. Renly got something of a rough deal, I thought (a few death by flames, and one death by impalement(?!)) but that was mostly Stannis fans invading the thread.
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Daenerys got a few votes for death by burning or flaying, but interestingly, a significant minority of people who condemned her for murder or torture opted for non-capital sentences. In fact, about 60% in total rejected capital punishment.

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Daenerys got a few votes for death by burning or flaying, but interestingly, a significant minority of people who condemned her for murder or torture opted for non-capital sentences. In fact, about 60% in total rejected capital punishment.

Dany is more popular/important to the story, & even the people that don't like her mostly think her heart is in the right place. Can't say any of that here.
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The Defendant is charged with four counts of treason:

1.1 The Defendant counselled King Aerys Targaryen, Second of His Name, to open the gates of King’s Landing to the army of Lord Tywin Lannister, in the knowledge that Lord Tywin was an enemy to King Aerys. GUILTY

1.2 The Defendant dismissed Maester Colemon, who was tending the Hand of the King, Lord Jon Arryn, following his poisoning, and then neglected his treatment, in order that Lord Arryn should die. GUILTY

1.3 The Defendant concealed his knowledge of incest between Queen Cersei Lannister and her brother, Ser Jaime Lannister (alias “the Kingslayer”) from King Robert Baratheon, First of His Name. NOT GUILTY due to lack of evidence.

1.4 The Defendant betrayed the secrets of Tyrion Lannister, Acting Hand of the King, to the Queen Regent Cersei Lannister. NOT GUILTY (if anything, Tyrion is guilty of treason for plotting the Queen Regent's own child's betrothal without her knowledge).

The Defendant is charged with two counts of Oathbreaking:

2.1 The Defendant has repeatedly acknowledged that in his capacity as Grand Maester, he has served House Lannister, in violation of his Maester’s oath to serve the Realm. GUILTY

2.2 The Defendant has repeatedly violated his Maester’s vow of chastity. GUILTY

3. The Defendant counselled the murder of Princess (Khaleesi) Daenerys Targaryen at a meeting of the Small Council. GUILTY

4. The Defendant is charged with the manslaughter of Lord John Arryn, as detailed in Charge 1.2. GUILTY

The Defendant is charged with two counts of perjury.

5.1 During the trial of Tyrion Lannister, Master of Coin, the Defendant lied that he had stolen The Strangler and other poisons from his stores. NOT GUILTY due to lack of evidence.

5.2 The Defendant falsely alleged that Queen Margaery Tyrell had obtained the abortificient, Moon Tea, from him, in order that she be condemned for adultery and treason. Dismissed.

For the guilty charges, Pycelle is to be stripped of his maester chains and sentenced to death by sword.

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First, this juror is happy about these threads being back or actually finding one amid the huge amount of thread of this forum

Treason

The Defendant is charged with four counts of treason:-

1.1 The Defendant counselled King Aerys Targaryen, Second of His Name, to open the gates of King’s Landing to the army of Lord Tywin Lannister, in the knowledge that Lord Tywin was an enemy to King Aerys.

Not Guilty. This juror doesn't recall any actual, hard evidence of the defendant knowing Lord Tywin's plans before hand. We could make the assumption about the defendant suspected Lord Tywin's plans and intentionally gave a critically serious bad advice to King Aerys against his bows. However, there is room for reasonable doubt for this charge.

1.2 The Defendant dismissed Maester Colemon, who was tending the Hand of the King, Lord Jon Arryn, following his poisoning, and then neglected his treatment, in order that Lord Arryn should die.

Guilty.

1.3 The Defendant concealed his knowledge of incest between Queen Cersei Lannister and her brother, Ser Jaime Lannister (alias “the Kingslayer”) from King Robert Baratheon, First of His Name.

Guilty. This also constitutes dereliction of duty as well as treason.

1.4 The Defendant betrayed the secrets of Tyrion Lannister, Acting Hand of the King, to the Queen Regent Cersei Lannister.

Not Guilty. Both the Queen Regent and the Hand of the King act on behalf of His Grace, Joffrey of House Baratheon, First of his Name. The defendant is sworn to serve both of them.

Oathbreaking

The Defendant is charged with two counts of Oathbreaking:-

2.1 The Defendant has repeatedly acknowledged that in his capacity as Grand Maester, he has served House Lannister, in violation of his Maester’s oath to serve the Realm;

Guilty.

2.2 The Defendant has repeatedly violated his Maester’s vow of chastity.

Guilty.

Incitement to Commit Murder

3. The Defendant counselled the murder of Princess (Khaleesi) Daenerys Targaryen at a meeting of the Small Council.

Not Guilty. Daenerys Targaryen was instrumental in Lord Viserys Targaryen, self styled King of the Seven Kingdoms, war of conquest against House Baratheon. The defendant is sworn to House Baratheon and, by extension, the realm and, as such, acted in what he understood were the best interest of King Robert of House Baratheon, First of His Name.

Manslaughter

4. The Defendant is charged with the manslaughter of Lord John Arryn, as detailed in Charge 1.2

Non guilty. The defendant is also charged with failing to provide medical assistance to the victim. He did not, however, poison him. And if he did, he can't be charged twice for the same crime.

Perjury

The Defendant is charged with two counts of perjury.

5.1 During the trial of Tyrion Lannister, Master of Coin, the Defendant lied that he had stolen The Strangler and other poisons from his stores.

Guilty.

5.2 The Defendant falsely alleged that Queen Margaery Tyrell had obtained the abortificient, Moon Tea, from him, in order that she be condemned for adultery and treason

Not Guilty. It's unclear at this point wether this is a lie or not.

This juror finds the defendant guilty on:

Guilty on the charge of oathbreaking regarding chastity, and sentences him to pay a monetary fine.

Guilty on the charge of oathbreaking regarding serving House Lannister, and sentences him to being stripped of his chain.

Guilty on two charges of treason and one of perjury and sentences him to death. Considering the current state of the Night's Watch and the ongoing war against the White Walkers, this juror hopes the defendant chooses to take the black and serve the realm until his death as payment for his crimes. The realm needs well instructed men fighting the Others.

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WRT terminology, Manslaughter is either (a) killing someone due to gross negligence or dereliction of duty or b. committing an unlawful act that results in a person's death. It falls just short of the intention to kill someone, in circumstances that are unlawful, which results in a murder conviction. In the opinion of this Court, if any juror does consider that Pycelle ought to be charged with murder, rather than manslaughter, that juror should still return a verdict of Guilty of manslaughter.

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As it is not possible to return a sentence of burning, flaying, or hanging, drawing and quartering, such sentences shall be treated by this Court as sentences to death by hanging.

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The Court has now reached its verdict. In respect of Count 1.1, Guilty 27, Not Guilty 6; Count 1.2, Guilty 30, Not Guilty 3. Count 1.3 Guilty 25, Not Guilty 7. Count 1.4 Guilty 15, Not Guilty 18. In respect of Count 2.1 Guilty 28, Not Guilty 5. Count 2.2 Guilty 27, Not Guilty 4. In respect of Count 3, Guilty 17, Not Guilty 16. In respect of Count 4, Guilty 26, Not Guilty 6. In respect of Count 5.1 Guilty 22, Not Guilty 11. Count 5.2 Guilty 13, Not Guilty 19. The Defendant is therefore found Guilty of three counts of Treason, two counts of Oathbreaking, one count each of Manslaughter, Incitement to Commit Murder, and Perjury. The Defendant is acquitted of one count of Treason, and one count of Perjury.

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The Defendant has been convicted of three counts of treason. For this, the penalty is usually death, in the absence of any extenuating factors. Ten jurors have voted for death by the sword, nine for death by hanging, three for death by other means (deemed to be death by hanging), five for the Defendant to take the Black, four for life exile, and two for life imprisonment. There is therefore, a very clear majority in favour of capital punishment.

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