R+L=J v.51

[finger]

I imagine as a paranoid madman, Aerys may have obsessed about tKotLT. If he discovered by chance, or by interrogation of the three knights and/or their squires, that his son- the very person he was deeply suspicious of- had known the truth all along and that it was none other than the girl he singled out at the Tourney, wouldn't Aerys' paranoia have led him to see conspiracies blooming? Ordering the seizure of the girl may have been only the beginning of a crackdown and his deep suspicions being now focused on the Starks would explain his irrational slaughter of Lord Rickard, his heir and his bannermen.

The interlude at the Tower may have been a safe house for Lyanna, and perhaps Rhaegar felt his father would "cool down" after a time. Of course, a downward spiral of events prevented that happening. Maybe Hightower was sent by Aerys to find Rhaegar, but the real message may have been- "you've got to help us, your father's come unmoored!"

Tragedy upon tragedy :(

I've said I'm thinking wasn't that paranoid, he suspected plots directed to him, but there was plots directed to him. That's foresight, not paranoia.

The theory you seem to be following has some details that beg an explanation:

- Hightower is used as a common courier

- Then he stays at the ToJ with two KG while R goes to battle

- R dies and the three KG keep staying at ToJ

There has to be something more I don't know, or else it doesn't make sense.

[finger]

No we really don't, but it's clear you're trying to..... :P

Am I, really? You make me feel as poor old Rhaegar taking the blame of abducting L :dunno:

[Jon Icefyre]

I've said I'm thinking wasn't that paranoid, he suspected plots directed to him, but there was plots directed to him. That's foresight, not paranoia.

No Aerys was clearly full on paranoid, Jamie Lannister and JC along with several other characters in the series acknowledge the fact that Aerys saw traitors everywhere.. After the rebels won the battle of the Trident Aerys was convinced that Lewyn Martell must have betrayed Rhaegar and so Aerys kept Elia and her children hostage to prevent anymore Dornish betrayal. But this shows that Aerys was not only paranoid about plots towards him, he clearly also thinks ppl like Lewyn Martell were plotting against his son, that is what we call full on paranoia.

[Jon Icefyre]

Am I, really? You make me feel as poor old Rhaegar taking the blame of abducting L :dunno:

I was kidding, it's not really a big deal obviously the subject of the TOJ is going to continue to come up lol.

[finger]

Ser Creighton, take a pause and try to assimilate this bit of the story. Howland is made for sitting a boat and holding oars, not sitting a horse and holding a lance, by his own words. Lyanna is known to be skilled with sword, and lance (via the app), and a remarkable horse-woman. Jousting is more about horsemanship than anything else, according to the story. The KotLT was short in stature, had a "booming voice", and wore ill-fitting unmatched armor. There was some significant motivating factor for Rhaegar to award the crown to Lyanna.

It is almost a certainty that Lyanna was the KotLT, and did so to defend Howland's honor when he could not do it himself. That Rhaegar somehow discovered this secret is the significant reason for his awarding the crown to Lyanna.

You're right, but you forget some things.

It seems HR was good enough as a warrior to ride by Ned and like saving his live (?) when he took on Arthur Dayne. Still, I like better Lyanna being the KotLT; it makes more sense.

It was not so difficult to know about Lyanna being "him". Knowing what happened afters, I guess R should be somehow appealled by L. The KotLT deeds for sure caused surprise and those around surely went by le lists to see. R must have noticed that Lyannna wasn't there. I imagine he felt interested and tried to find out at once, but he didn't tell to anyone. All those who could know are dead, so we are not reliably informed about what happened.

Btw, I consider myself a guest here, and try to behave. So, if the moderators sugest not to discuss here about Varys' sincerity, I better won't. I think he's a master liar who normally cheats with a part of the truth. But feel free to consider him faithfull and reliable. We only know what he says to different PoVs. I could add some more, but I'll heed the moderators.

[finger]

Howland never said Lyanna was a skilled sword or Lance, that's never been mentioned, why people use that app. Lyanna beat an 8 year old with a stick, and chased off a few squires, it's never said they fought back. Do you think there is a squire alive that would strike Lyanna Stark, not just because she is a lady, but what the hell is the repercussion for attacking her? Aside from every Knight at the tourney wanting to end them. She is the daughter of Rickard Stark one of the seven great lords, and her Brothers are Brandon and Eddard, not to mention Robert would probably kill anyone that touched her. She ran up and hit some squires with a tourney sword while yelling at them and started swinging. They ran away.

"There are no Knight's in the Neck "said Jojen"

"There was one Knight'" said Meera"

"He might of been a crannogmen that one"

"or not" said, Jojen

Just because they are having a little fun with Bran and the story, does not mean it is Lyanna. They are just making a little mystery out of it, that's why they never use names.

They assume Bran knows this story as well as he does, and that Ned would of told him. Why do you think Howland tells this story, about a Knight defending the Honor of his people? Because he got his ass kicked, saved and then some else fought his battle? Yes so many things to be proud of.

The Crannogman was small, but Brave, and smart and strong. Once again talking about Howland. Not to mention people always forget the Crannogmen use spears, a lance is just a long spear. It was hinted he was magical, perhaps even a Warg. Breathe mud and run on leaves.

This lad was bolder than most.

He wintered on the Isle of faces. Which could be several months to a year or two.

Bran new it was Harrenhal, "was it" keeping up the mystery.

Interesting note Bran asked about the Fair maids and The wife of the Dragon Prince was the one Howland told his kids about. The unreliable POV, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

"Sometimes the knights are the monsters."

The squires appear and attack Howland snatching away his spear and knocking him to the ground.

"He marked there faces well so he could revenge himself upon them later"

The she wolf laid into them with a tourney sword scattering them all. They scattered after she attacked them, they didn't fight her. Had they, they would probably be dead within the hour.

That night at the party Lyanna Rhaegar performed, Lyanna cried and dumped win, and the Crannogman spied the three squires and found out who they served. The wolf maid saw them two and pointed them out to her brothers. The Pup offered to find horse and armor for him. The crannogman gave no answer. The crannogman was torn. He feared to make a fool out of his people because like most crannogs he doesn't know horse and lance all that well. He wished for vengeance but feared to make a fool out of himself and his people.

"he knelt on the lake shore, looking across the water to where the isle of faces would be, and said a prayer to the old gods of the north and neck."

"You never heard this tale asked Jojen" Now would this be the tale of how their father could not defend himself? Or the one where he pulled off an upset.

The three Knights of the squires made it to the champions circle on the first day and second day.

The Knight of the laughing tree appears, now why would Lyanna use a sigil of the laughing tree. Howland just left the isle of faces which is full of Wierwoods.

"Maybe he came from the Isle of faces" "I bet the old gods sent him"

"Perhaps they did"

"Whoever he was the old gods gave strength to his arm" "his arm" perhaps a slip of the tongue.

The knights were defeated and the squires publicly chastiesed. "And so the little crannogman's prayers were answered... by the green men, or the old gods or the children of the forest, who can say?" That night the Storm lord and the Knight of skulls and kisses swore to unmask him. And the king vowed the face behind that helm was no friend of his.

Meera showed up with and old Great Helm.

The next day the trumpets blew and the knight was knowhere to be seen. The king sent his son to find him but all they ever found was his shield in a tree.

"Are you sure you never heard this story?"

Why would not doing anyting and letting someone else fight your battles be a point of pride for Howland Reed? The guy fought at the tower of Joy and saved Neds life. Clealry he was capable of a lot of things. Maybe the green men gave him a little boost, maybe he played a little dirty, which is not unlike a crannogman.

Lyanna being a good rider does not make her an expert sword or lance. Neither does beating an 8 year old. It's never said she fought the squires. Only that she a attacked them and they scattered. What person in their right mind would have struck her or drawn on her?

Not to take away from Lyanna but that is Howlands story and a story about his people. They are looked down upon, yet when the time came he proved as good as them or better. How would Lyanna fighting his battle be a good thing for him and his people. We are smaller and strange to a lot of people but if we are attacked soemone will protect us?

I'll take any bets it was Howland and that Lyanna did meet Rhaeger, and I will even bet it was Ned or Robert that introduced her to him. Probably Robert because the Irony would be devine. It was a six day Tourney, they had plenty of time to meet and talk. And note the story is not really focusing on Lyanna but the Crannogman. Lyanna's story is a sad story as is pointed out at the very end, this wasn't part of her story. This was a happy story with pride for the Crannogmen.

I think it's intresting that people think the only way she could of met Rhaegar and liked him is if she was the KotLT. The two could of just been introduced and clicked, "or not said Jojen"

I mean if you support the Gay Rhaegar fanship maybe he did look for the Knight and found Lyanna and was like, noooooo, I was hoping you would be a hot dude.

Joking aside, it would not have been difficult to meet her and talk to her at the tourney. In fact she would of been introduced during the Kings reception, which they usually have at a tourney. We have one moment at the tourney told as a story about a little Crannogman, which the story is about. The other 140 hours or so still have to be filled in. 6 days, we have a brief look at the tourney and nothing more from one POV told as a tale.

My first impression was that the KotLT was Benjen. By doing it, he would have caused, even indirectly, the death of Rickard, Brandon and Lyanna. It could explain why he took the black.

But I still like better the Lyanna version; it's much more dramatic. As I said before, anyone interested in Lyanna should have noticed her absence, if it were the case.

[finger]

No Aerys was clearly full on paranoid, Jamie Lannister and JC along with several other characters in the series acknowledge the fact that Aerys saw traitors everywhere.. After the rebels won the battle of the Trident Aerys was convinced that Lewyn Martell must have betrayed Rhaegar and so Aerys kept Elia and her children hostage to prevent anymore Dornish betrayal. But this shows that Aerys was not only paranoid about plots towards him, he clearly also thinks ppl like Lewyn Martell were plotting against his son, that is what we call full on paranoia.

Of course, he was insane, but I wonder how severely. If there were plots against him, he'd better look for the plotters.

We know about Rickard's southron ambitions. When Aerys killed the Starks, he was getting rid of some foes, insane and all.

[Jon Icefyre]

We know about Rickard's southron ambitions. When Aerys killed the Starks, he was getting rid of some foes, insane and all.

What, why would Rickard's southern ambitions have anything to do with replacing or posing a serious threat to the Targaryen dynasty? Before the Brandon incident there was nothing in the entire history of the Targs in Westeros that even ever slightly suggested the Starks had any ill will towards the Targaryens(other than maybe the fight between The Dragonkinght and Cregan Stark), stretching all the way back to Aegon l. In fact the Starks were one of the houses that bent the knee to Aegon l peacefully without any bloodshed. Rickard's "southern ambitions" were most like just about arranging to join with some southern houses through marriage to expand the Stark's overall influence in the realm, I don't think it had anything whatsoever to do with posing a threat to Aerys or unseating him.....

[finger]

What, why would Rickard's southern ambitions have anything to do with replacing or posing a serious threat to the Targaryen dynasty? Before the Brandon incident there was nothing in the entire history of the Targs in Westeros that even ever slightly suggested the Starks had any ill will towards the Targaryens(other than maybe the fight between The Dragonkinght and Cregan Stark), stretching all the way back to Aegon l. In fact the Starks were one of the houses that bent the knee to Aegon l peacefully without any bloodshed. Rickard's "southern ambitions" were most like just about arranging to join with some southern houses through marriage to expand the Stark's overall influence in the realm, I don't think it had anything whatsoever to do with posing a threat to Aerys or unseating him.....

Rickard was building strong bonds with Riverrun, the Vale and Storm's End. That's sure, and I guess he planned to have Ned married to Ashara Dayne, as his best option to gain influence in the Dorne and at Rhaegar's "home". It's more than enough for an insane Aerys to consider him a foe. (btw, wasn't he?)

Aerys could think that Rickard would support Rhaegar to become his Hand when Aerys was deposed. (wasn't it that Rickard aimed?) In this stance, Aerys might have been more wary than mad.

I guess Aerys couldn't really trust anyone's fealty. Under these circumstances, whoever building power was dangerous.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

The theory you seem to be following has some details that beg an explanation:

- Hightower is used as a common courier

- Then he stays at the ToJ with two KG while R goes to battle

- R dies and the three KG keep staying at ToJ

There has to be something more I don't know, or else it doesn't make sense.

I don't understand the explanations you are looking for since all of those points are canon and discussed here frequently?

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

No Aerys was clearly full on paranoid, Jamie Lannister and JC along with several other characters in the series acknowledge the fact that Aerys saw traitors everywhere.. After the rebels won the battle of the Trident Aerys was convinced that Lewyn Martell must have betrayed Rhaegar and so Aerys kept Elia and her children hostage to prevent anymore Dornish betrayal. But this shows that Aerys was not only paranoid about plots towards him, he clearly also thinks ppl like Lewyn Martell were plotting against his son, that is what we call full on paranoia.

:agree:

[JonNonRegis]

Lyanna beat an 8 year old with a stick, and chased off a few squires, it's never said they fought back. Do you think there is a squire alive that would strike Lyanna Stark, not just because she is a lady, but what the hell is the repercussion for attacking her?

Good points all, and likely correct. There is simply no way Lyanna beat three squires simultaneously... and little chance that they looked at a girl screaming "that's my father's man you're kicking," while they were kicking Lord Rickard Stark's vassal, and failed to detect her identity. Especially given how, rather like Arya, Lyanna looked exactly like a Stark.

Why do you think Howland tells this story, about a Knight defending the Honor of his people? Because he got his ass kicked, saved and then some else fought his battle? Yes so many things to be proud of.

Indeed. The people arguing for Lyanna-as-knight do not seem to realize how badly Howland's ego had been body-slammed, and how much he wanted to dish out justice on his own. Or how implausible it would be for Howland to tell his children such a story, given how bad it made him look.

That's the point of the praying in the tale... he was trying to decide what to do. Well, he decided. And that's also why following the praying, he chose a laughing weirwood for his sigil, in addition to the fact that

Howland just left the Isle of Faces, which is full of weirwoods

Then we come to this tidbit:

The king sent his son to find him but all they ever found was the knight's shield in a tree.

This is a classic instance of R+L=J theorists trying to have it both ways, because of course they love to pretend this instance of canon doesn't exist -- that it's a lie, it didn't happen, Rhaegar really found and unmasked Lyanna!

And then they had a glorious Hollywood-style Meet Cute in which they realized, announced, and possibly consummated their eternal passion, prior to planning a grand fake abduction. I just roll my eyes at the extreme Mary Sueness of it all.

But if anyone tries this same absurd game with other bits of the novels, they cry foul through their tears.

"That's not in the text, there's no support for that, it's just fanfiction you made up..."

Well, my goodness. Rhaegar meet-cuting Lyanna? That is fanfiction, my friends. It's not just missing from, but a flat-out contradiction of, the canon as it exists to date.

The guy fought at the Tower of Joy and saved Ned's life. Clearly he was capable of a lot of things. Maybe the green men gave him a little boost, maybe he played a little dirty, which is not unlike a crannogman.

I'm not going to say Howland can skinchange (that would surely draw cries of fanfiction).

I'll only say that if he can skinchange, it would be a relatively simple matter to win three jousts with horse-riding knights... as well as throw even a knight as supremely capable as Ser Arthur Dayne completely off his game for a few critical seconds -- long enough to give his liege lord a chance to win a fight.

[Alia of the knife]

Just a couple of observations:

Lyanna as the KotLT:

Given Martins penchant for telling a story within a story, it was my sense in reading the last sample chapter from TWoW, "Arianne," that Elia Sands evolution into Lady Lance is a tentative confirmation of Lyanna as the KotLT.

It's rather like the story of Jorahs winning the Tourney of Lannisport, winning an unusual victory, and crowning Lynesse Hightower the Queen of Love and Beauty is like the story of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

When I first read of Jorahs history, I knew then before Selmys confirmation that Rhaegar loved Lyanna.

Also, the Reeds apparent chagrin at the Starks not knowing about the story of the KotLT smacks more of Ned keeping something from his children and if it was Howland, there wouldn't be a need for that.

Rhaegar as a political animal:

I don't think that is improbable.

Concerns such as visions and prophesy are natural to Targaryens, not unnatural, so not something that they would necessarily "obsess" over. Might there have been metaphysical motivations?

Yes

However, I think the worldly concerns such as the succession and the strength of it might also have been a concern, especially when what people remember are not the prophesies Rhaegar was supposed to be worrying over, but remember as Kevan did, that had he married Cersei, she would have given him all the sons he wanted, as well as lamenting in the same breath the delicate health of Elia.

I also imagine that Aerys was not likely a loving father, and Prince or no, an abusive parent is an abusive parent, and festering hostilities and resentments can certainly lead to the types of tensions that would make Rhaegar want to change everything his father had anything to do with, including his marital choices and the only way to do that is to become King himself.

Rickards Southon Ambitions:

My understanding is that the Starks kept themselves aloof and isolated from the rest of the Kingdom, so his ambitions may have only been to be more of a political presence in the governing of the Kingdom. My sense is not that he wanted to be King of Westeros because he didn't have that right, but he did have the right to be King of Winter again, so if anything, he would have been more apt to have wanted to secede.

While I'm not convinced that Lady Dustin is anti-Stark, she still could very well be North-centric, and viewed Rickards desire to go into the South with hostility.

For many families in the North, I imagine marrying a Stark would be the same as marrying a Targaryen. or a Martell in Dorne, so having him strike out into greener pastures means the Northern families have more competition in "marrying up."

The Nature of Rhaegar and Lyannas relationship:

While I think they loved each other, I think they both struggled with honor, and the events that played out were complicated and TRAGIC.

While I defend Lyanna and question whether she went willingly or not, (which doesn't mean that she didn't love him), NOBODY WANTS TO READ THE STORY ABOUT THE MAIDEN WHO WAS IN THE WRONG PLACE AT THE WRONG TIME, WHO CAPTIVATED A PROPHESY-OBSESSED NUT JOB, AND WHO WAS LATER RAPED TO DEATH IN A TOWER!!

Call ME Mary Sue, but I can't get with that kind of sado-maso. misery porn, and find it just as tiresome, boring, and fast becoming just as much a cliché.

If Martin remains true to his romantic side, (and Martin does like his Faulkner), then he creates a balanced, realistic, (and that term goes both ways), story, which is good story telling even if it sounds like a "cliché," because I'd rather read a well-told cliché than a badly-told story, but supposedly "original."

There is a reason we are still reading Shakespeare, Homer, Dante, "Tristan and Isolde," and yes Faulkner.

There is nothing "Mary Sue" about Rhaegar and Lyannas fate, but a story so tragic, I personally don't want to know their last moments, but have it left in the shadows of time.

[Jon Icefyre]

Rickard was building strong bonds with Riverrun, the Vale and Storm's End. That's sure, and I guess he planned to have Ned married to Ashara Dayne, as his best option to gain influence in the Dorne and at Rhaegar's "home". It's more than enough for an insane Aerys to consider him a foe. (btw, wasn't he?)

Aerys could think that Rickard would support Rhaegar to become his Hand when Aerys was deposed. (wasn't it that Rickard aimed?) In this stance, Aerys might have been more wary than mad.

I guess Aerys couldn't really trust anyone's fealty. Under these circumstances, whoever building power was dangerous.

It's not a crime to build bonds with other houses, the North had been isolated from the south prior to Rickard so he was just simply trying to extend his families political power, wealth, and overall influence/ties to the realm. Again this doesn't mean he was trying to pose a threat to Aerys, from the moment Aegon l landed North until Ned Stark got his head chopped off the Starks had never shown any intention to make a run at the Iron Throne. I'm sure there were plenty of Targs kings that had very ambitious noble families cross their paths to try to widen their overall influence, there's nothing wrong with that as long as they're not going for the crown, which the Starks clearly weren't. The fact that Aerys would see this as some insane threat toward his crown would just be more proof of his insane paranoia......

[Ygrain]

Indeed. The people arguing for Lyanna-as-knight do not seem to realize how badly Howland's ego had been body-slammed, and how much he wanted to dish out justice on his own. Or how implausible it would be for Howland to tell his children such a story, given how bad it made him look.

That's the point of the praying in the tale... he was trying to decide what to do. Well, he decided. And that's also why following the praying, he chose a laughing weirwood for his sigil, in addition to the fact that

I’m still waiting to see how the old gods granted him the skill.

Plus, I don’t see anything humiliating in admitting that someone is totally unfit for a fight in a style in which he hadn’t received any training, and that someone became his champion to fight for him. And, if this person fought for him, why wouldn’t s/he choose a sigil that symbolizes HR and old gods?

Then we come to this tidbit:

“The king sent his son to find him but all they ever found was the knight's shield in a tree“

This is a classic instance of R+L=J theorists trying to have it both ways, because of course they love to pretend this instance of canon doesn't exist -- that it's a lie, it didn't happen, Rhaegar really found and unmasked Lyanna!

:headbang:

Ah. So because the official version says so, Joffrey is Robert’s son and Bran and Rickon are dead, right? How does Rhaegar’s official version of not being able to find KotLT preclude figuring out and unmasking him privately and keeping the secret? C’mon. If Lyanna had caught his eye previously, e.g. when he was singing, he would have noticed that she was missing on the tourney. Not such a stretch.

I'm not going to say Howland can skinchange (that would surely draw cries of fanfiction).

I'll only say that if he can skinchange, it would be a relatively simple matter to win three jousts with horse-riding knights... as well as throw even a knight as supremely capable as Ser Arthur Dayne completely off his game for a few critical seconds -- long enough to give his liege lord a chance to win a fight.

BS. Ever tried hitting something with a two-metre stick while riding a horse? Even if you could perfectly control the horse, you would still need to know what to do with it. Lyanna was trained for jousting, HR wasn’t.

BTW, one doesn’t have to be a skin-changer to distract a much stronger and more skilled opponent to prevent him deliver a killing blow.

Lyanna as the KotLT:

Given Martins penchant for telling a story within a story, it was my sense in reading the last sample chapter from TWoW, "Arianne," that Elia Sands evolution into Lady Lance is a tentative confirmation of Lyanna as the KotLT.

It's rather like the story of Jorahs winning the Tourney of Lannisport, winning an unusual victory, and crowning Lynesse Hightower the Queen of Love and Beauty is like the story of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

When I first read of Jorahs history, I knew then before Selmys confirmation that Rhaegar loved Lyanna.

Also, the Reeds apparent chagrin at the Starks not knowing about the story of the KotLT smacks more of Ned keeping something from his children and if it was Howland, there wouldn't be a need for that.

A spot-on. The parallel of Rhaegar wanting to win the tourney so that he could crown Lyanna and being unstoppable that dayclearly reflects the same element in Jorah’s story, and the fact that the observation is made by Selmy (“Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna“) who states what affects the victory pretty much drives home.

The Nature of Rhaegar and Lyannas relationship:

While I think they loved each other, I think they both struggled with honor, and the events that played out were complicated and TRAGIC.

While I defend Lyanna and question whether she went willingly or not, (which doesn't mean that she didn't love him), NOBODY WANTS TO READ THE STORY ABOUT THE MAIDEN WHO WAS IN THE WRONG PLACE AT THE WRONG TIME, WHO CAPTIVATED A PROPHESY-OBSESSED NUT JOB, AND WHO WAS LATER RAPED TO DEATH IN A TOWER!!

Call ME Mary Sue, but I can't get with that kind of sado-maso. misery porn, and find it just as tiresome, boring, and fast becoming just as much a cliché.

Amen. Two good people caught in a colossal tragedy makes for a much better story.

If Martin remains true to his romantic side, (and Martin does like his Faulkner), then he creates a balanced, realistic, (and that term goes both ways), story, which is good story telling even if it sounds like a "cliché," because I'd rather read a well-told cliché than a badly-told story, but supposedly "original."

That well-told cliché is the archetype we talked about previously J

Anyone into gaming here? I suppose we could agree that Dragon Age: Origins was the former and DA2 the latter case of storytelling.

[FrozenFire3]

<snip>

If Martin remains true to his romantic side, (and Martin does like his Faulkner), then he creates a balanced, realistic, (and that term goes both ways), story, which is good story telling even if it sounds like a "cliché," because I'd rather read a well-told cliché than a badly-told story, but supposedly "original."

There is a reason we are still reading Shakespeare, Homer, Dante, "Tristan and Isolde," and yes Faulkner.

There is nothing "Mary Sue" about Rhaegar and Lyannas fate, but a story so tragic, I personally don't want to know their last moments, but have it left in the shadows of time.

THIS. To the ∞th degree.

In our endless debate we can pile on top of denial another interesting psychological defence mechanism: projection :rolleyes:

* grrrrrr I hate Rhaegar tsk pretty hair, pretty eyes (ooops, that's Jon's description in TV show, courtesy of Orell) arrrrgh the harp jeez he's emo noooooooooo he can't be Jon's father sigh MUST find an alternative, any alternative *

Btw, there's ample academic discussion and criticism about the Mary Sue concept. With quite a lot of sexist implications. A bit of reading wouldn't hurt.

[finger]

I don't understand the explanations you are looking for since all of those points are canon and discussed here frequently?

I'll try to explain better.

Dayne's and Whent's role at ToJ are very clear but, Hightower's?

Why is he sent to deliver a message? Why doesn't he come back with Rhaegar? Why does he stay there forever? It's a strange behaviour.

People normally answer that he was obeying orders. For instances, in the Citadel you can find these:

“Ser Arthur Dayne, Ser Gerold Hightower, and Ser Oswell Whent were ordered by Rhaegar to stand guard at the 'tower of joy' near Dorne. All three died there (I: 354-356)”

“The Kingsguard are bound to follow the orders they receive, generally, and cannot pick and choose orders to follow (SSM: 1)”

It's an easy explanation, but it'd be much better if the orders made any sense. What were their orders?

Here you have my reasoning.

Hightower went to ToJ escorting a royal.

He stayed there together with that royal.

Since we know the fate of every royal but Aegon, it had to be Aegon.

The question is: why on earth had he to take Aegon to ToJ?

He hadn't had any problem to find the ToJ. I guess there was some communication between Aerys and Rhaegar, and the latter conditioned his coming back to Aegon being sent there to stay.

This would answer every question but: Why should he? Aegon was R's heir. R might not trust Aerys. Someone has remembered that Aerys had close bonds with Viserys, and that could make R wary. Or R wanted to have his son close to him, just because. It's not strange from a father.

I don't really know, and I don't remember to have read any discussion on Hightower's orders, So, I'm asking your opinion.

[finger]

It's not a crime to build bonds with other houses, the North had been isolated from the south prior to Rickard so he was just simply trying to extend his families political power, wealth, and overall influence/ties to the realm. Again this doesn't mean he was trying to pose a threat to Aerys, from the moment Aegon l landed North until Ned Stark got his head chopped off the Starks had never shown any intention to make a run at the Iron Throne. I'm sure there were plenty of Targs kings that had very ambitious noble families cross their paths to try to widen their overall influence, there's nothing wrong with that as long as they're not going for the crown, which the Starks clearly weren't. The fact that Aerys would see this as some insane threat toward his crown would just be more proof of his insane paranoia......

That's my point. Even a sane person would be suspicion. And Aerys was insane in some degree (there are opinions), so he had enough reasons to try to get rid of Rickard. Add that he had real reasons to be angry with Rhaegar running away with Lyanna, so he wouldn't suffer L's brother coming to him resentful.

[finger]

Ah. So because the official version says so, Joffrey is Robert’s son and Bran and Rickon are dead, right? How does Rhaegar’s official version of not being able to find KotLT preclude figuring out and unmasking him privately and keeping the secret? C’mon. If Lyanna had caught his eye previously, e.g. when he was singing, he would have noticed that she was missing on the tourney. Not such a stretch.

Amen. Two good people caught in a colossal tragedy makes for a much better story.

:agree:

[Ygrain]

I'll try to explain better.

Dayne's and Whent's role at ToJ are very clear but, Hightower's?

Why is he sent to deliver a message? Why doesn't he come back with Rhaegar? Why does he stay there forever? It's a strange behaviour.

People normally answer that he was obeying orders. For instances, in the Citadel you can find these:

“Ser Arthur Dayne, Ser Gerold Hightower, and Ser Oswell Whent were ordered by Rhaegar to stand guard at the 'tower of joy' near Dorne. All three died there (I: 354-356)”

“The Kingsguard are bound to follow the orders they receive, generally, and cannot pick and choose orders to follow (SSM: 1)”

It's an easy explanation, but it'd be much better if the orders made any sense. What were their orders?

Here you have my reasoning.

Hightower went to ToJ escorting a royal.

He stayed there together with that royal.

Since we know the fate of every royal but Aegon, it had to be Aegon.

The question is: why on earth had he to take Aegon to ToJ?

He hadn't had any problem to find the ToJ. I guess there was some communication between Aerys and Rhaegar, and the latter conditioned his coming back to Aegon being sent there to stay.

This would answer every question but: Why should he? Aegon was R's heir. R might not trust Aerys. Someone has remembered that Aerys had close bonds with Viserys, and that could make R wary. Or R wanted to have his son close to him, just because. It's not strange from a father.

I don't really know, and I don't remember to have read any discussion on Hightower's orders, So, I'm asking your opinion.

I do not recall any mention of Aerys and Viserys having a close relationship.

As for Hightower, quite a couple of possibilities there. He could have been sent to fetch a royal, i.e. Rhaegar - the time was unsafe, and another KG would be useful to strengthen the protection of a key member of the royal family. Or, Aerys in his paranoia may have considered Whent and Dayne suspicious and ordered them not to come back. Or, Rhaegar personally requested Hightower as the most trustworthy member of the KG to seal some deal with Aerys - or Aerys sent Hightower as the most trustworthy and respectable KG to sway Rhaegar.