R+L=J v.51

[FrozenFire3]

A lot of people are in deep, deep, deep denial.

:agree: Denial and out of proportion personal investment in what, at the end of the day, is simply a story. A very good one, but a story nevertheless... A bit like going to the theatre and starting to root for this or that character on stage, cheering on 'friend' and cursing the 'foe'. THAT would be a show not to miss :rolleyes:

Lol about why so many ppl doesn't like the R+L = J theory...the main complain I hear from other readers it's that "it's too cliche" "Jon can't be Azor Azhai, TPtwP, the song of ice and fire, Aragorn, Arthur, Goku, etc etc"

That got me thinking...lots of readers enjoy ASoIaF because it escapes from the traditional fantasy elements with it's somewhat real political and social settings, without either all good or all bad characters, etc.....woudn't it be a spectacular trolling from GRRM to have all that solved by a cliche character????.....fan troll success :rofl:

Game of Trolls :lol:

It really is a matter of cultural imprint. Where some people see Cinderella, I see classical tragedy. What they call cliché, I call it archetype...

[King of Winters]

A lot of people are in deep, deep, deep denial.

*cough*Black Hawk*cough*

Wow, 51 threads. Makes you wonder how long it will go on for.

Probably when it's said in the books which is, um, whenever.

And just to say something useful, Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, and the Kingsguard prove he's legitimate because they protecting their rightful king because by then all the others heirs before Jon were killed in The Sack, Viserys comes after Jon, and the number one thing that the Kingsguard do is to protect the king.

And they weren't there protecting Jon and Lyanna because the Kingsguard were such good friends with Rheagar that they honoured his last wish to protect them rather than go to Viserys, who would have been the rightful king if Rhaegar and Lyanna hadn't of married.

[Ygrain]

Game of Trolls :lol:

It really is a matter of cultural imprint. Where some people see Cinderella, I see classical tragedy. What they call cliché, I call it archetype...

ROFL!

The only difference between a cliche and an archetype is the author's skill. I yet have to see GRRM lacking in this area.

[The guy from the Vale]

ROFL!

The only difference between a cliche and an archetype is the author's skill. I yet have to see GRRM lacking in this area.

:agree:

I'd really advise all those who scream cliché all the time to study mythology and literature just a bit more. Myths are full of clichés, but because of their setting and the burdens everybody carries, they still become greater than life. And GRRM, so afr, has shown a great understanding of this.

[Ghost's Shadow]

You need to say that more often, and on different threads. Ugh, I get tired from people throwing the word 'cliché' at everything just because THEY don't like it.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

:agree: Denial and out of proportion personal investment in what, at the end of the day, is simply a story. A very good one, but a story nevertheless... A bit like going to the theatre and starting to root for this or that character on stage, cheering on 'friend' and cursing the 'foe'. THAT would be a show not to miss :rolleyes:

Game of Trolls :lol:

It really is a matter of cultural imprint. Where some people see Cinderella, I see classical tragedy. What they call cliché, I call it archetype...

:agree: especially with the bold!

[Ygritte]

:agree:

I'd really advise all those who scream cliché all the time to study mythology and literature just a bit more. Myths are full of clichés, but because of their setting and the burdens everybody carries, they still become greater than life. And GRRM, so afr, has shown a great understanding of this.

This, this, this.

[Lady Nastja]

:agree:

I'd really advise all those who scream cliché all the time to study mythology and literature just a bit more. Myths are full of clichés, but because of their setting and the burdens everybody carries, they still become greater than life. And GRRM, so afr, has shown a great understanding of this.

:agree: and :bowdown:

[Ygrain]

I'd really advise all those who scream cliché all the time to study mythology and literature just a bit more. Myths are full of clichés, but because of their setting and the burdens everybody carries, they still become greater than life. And GRRM, so afr, has shown a great understanding of this.

:agree:

Speaking of myths, I do hope that Lord Frey's constant boasting of his sons is a nod to Niobe.

[FittleLinger]

:agree:

Speaking of myths, I do hope that Lord Frey's constant boasting of his sons is a nod to Niobe.

Speaking of Freys and mythology, one of my pet theorettes that has no textual support whatsoever, but I am more inclined to believe than not, is that they will be destroyed by dragon fire. That's because in Norse mythology, the fertility god Freyr gets killed by a fire giant. I imagine something like Harrenhal 2.0.

Of course, I would like some sort of Northern/Stark revenge a lot more, but...

Oh, and nice to see you guys in version 51 :cheers:

[The guy from the Vale]

Speaking of Freys and mythology, one of my pet theorettes that has no textual support whatsoever, but I am more inclined to believe than not, is that they will be destroyed by dragon fire. That's because in Norse mythology, the fertility god Freyr gets killed by a fire giant. I imagine something like Harrenhal 2.0.

Of course, I would like some sort of Northern/Stark revenge a lot more, but...

Oh, and nice to see you guys in version 51 :cheers:

Just as a side note here, Freyr fights fighting not just any fire giant, but their leader, Surtr... who wields a flaming sword. Some extrapolation might lead one to believe that Azor Ahai will destroy the Freys...

[Alia of the knife]

:agree:

Speaking of myths, I do hope that Lord Frey's constant boasting of his sons is a nod to Niobe.

Great analogy. It definitely fits.

[FittleLinger]

Just as a side note here, Freyr fights fighting not just any fire giant, but their leader, Surtr... who wields a flaming sword. Some extrapolation might lead one to believe that Azor Ahai will destroy the Freys...

Thanks, that's a good note. I believe that my immediate connection was with dragons and not AA because it's purely fire. And I and a lot of other people have deducted that AA as a purely fire champion is only one (wrong) interpretation, while it will most likely be Jon, who is Ice and Fire. But yes, with some extrapolation you might arrive to the AA connection, thanks for the addition.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Speaking of Freys and mythology, one of my pet theorettes that has no textual support whatsoever, but I am more inclined to believe than not, is that they will be destroyed by dragon fire. That's because in Norse mythology, the fertility god Freyr gets killed by a fire giant. I imagine something like Harrenhal 2.0.

Of course, I would like some sort of Northern/Stark revenge a lot more, but...

Oh, and nice to see you guys in version 51 :cheers:

Some version of this would be nice, it's a very apt analogy. Also, love the term "theorette"! I may just find myself using it IRL ;)

[kidlatxo]

I don't know if this has been brought up before but in the show when they left for KL and the wall Ned told Jon that next time they'll meet Ned will tell the truth about Lyanna (Sean bean didn't say that but we know) and obviously there was no next time... But since Jon "died" maybe they'll meet in the after life and that's where the reveal happens, hehe

And one more thing rhaego's hair in the show was black

[TommenLannister]

In this theory, does Catelyn know about Jon being Ned's nephew and not his son?

[Maxpey]

And a lot of people don't read the reference guide :P

There's a reference guide? :drool:

[Maxpey]

I don't know if this has been brought up before but in the show when they left for KL and the wall Ned told Jon that next time they'll meet Ned will tell the truth about Lyanna (Sean bean didn't say that but we know) and obviously there was no next time... But since Jon "died" maybe they'll meet in the after life and that's where the reveal happens, hehe

And one more thing rhaego's hair in the show was black

You know, that's not too crazy. I was thinking the same thing (although it would be a tad Harry Potterish).

[Ygrain]

In this theory, does Catelyn know about Jon being Ned's nephew and not his son?

Under no theory does Catelyn know, it is clearly stated in her PoVs that she has no idea except the suspicion about Ashara Dayne.

[Maxpey]

:agree:

I'd really advise all those who scream cliché all the time to study mythology and literature just a bit more. Myths are full of clichés, but because of their setting and the burdens everybody carries, they still become greater than life. And GRRM, so afr, has shown a great understanding of this.

I will be the first person to admit that I have, at best, a layman's understanding of mythology and literature.

Are you saying that having a lost heir claim his rightful place on the throne (Jon) is a cliche, but it's acceptable because it's consistent with traditional themes that are found in mythology?