Howland Reed + Ashara Dayne = Meera & Jojen?

[Hangover of the Morning]

I think he is trying to say if Beric could vanish so easily with the help of the smallfolk so could Arthur Dayne. And why would the dayne family name one of their own Eddard if the original "killed" Ser Arthur?

OK. Now I got it. Thanks.

[Frey family reunion]

While I appreciate a good Dayne theory like the next guy (I've been guilty of a few of them myself) I sometimes wonder if the Dayne's sigil should be the red herring instead of the falling star. I've often wondered if Martin hasn't introduced them to turn attention away from two things: Jon's true parentage, and the meaning of the Lightbringer story. They have been set up as such a stereotype of the fantasy genre, that I wonder if Martin isn't using them to play on our expectations of what is significant in the storyline.

[kiasyd]

I think this theory is solid! Even if it's wrong, it is onto something - the case about the literary themes linking Reed, Dayne and Stark is very good. I'm sold!

I also think that's fitting that no actual fight took place between Ned and Arthur... Hell, maybe Howland actually got Arthur to switch sides at the ToJ mexican standoff?

[King of Winters]

The more I think about this theory, the more I wouldn't mind it being true. It's the only Ashara being alive theory I like now.

[ab aeterno]

Is George a big Indiana Jones fan?

Remember in the end of raiders of the Lost Ark when he has to take the path of god test and the letters l and j are interchangeable when spelling jehova. :o

They're not interchangeable, there's just no letter "j" in the Latin alphabet. :P

[Sigurður Ingi]

I apologize but this reasoning does not make any sense to me.

I apologize for misunderstanding since English is not my first language :)

What I meant with my first post was that I think if this theory works is that Crannogmen are helping the Brotherhood without Banners at least the Reeds since they got an relative in Brotherhood Edric Dayne is what I first thought.

Since If we believe that Howland Reed is married to Ashara Dayne why should she not help her young nephew Edric Dayne squire of Lord Beric who was at that time leader of Brotherhood from escaping Lannisters but also bringing them some food and tools and safehouse to sleep like many other lords did.

Second thing I meant was that after Lord Beric finally died, it said that Edric Dayne is not part of new Brotherhood under Lady Stoneheart and just left so I thought one of his places where he could be staying at is Greywater Hatch where is aunt lives.

Third thing I what find interesting is surrounding Edric Dayne is that his nickname is "Ned" same as his uncle Arthur's killer Eddard "Ned" Stark whichI find it interesting since I would hardly think that anyone would have ever thought of taking same nickname of his relative killer unless he has no hate for that person.

I think he is trying to say if Beric could vanish so easily with the help of the smallfolk so could Arthur Dayne. And why would the dayne family name one of their own Eddard if the original "killed" Ser Arthur?

Thanks for supported and I find your answer also very interesting considered that what I meant was different for what you said but your answer could also support this theory since if Lord Beric could easily hide with support of the smallfolks why should not Arthur Dayne also be easily vanish with help of Crannogmen.

[Anook of the North]

ok, I'm running out of time and skipped a few pages of this thread, but I just LOVE this theory and I'd like to make a point to support it.

At least it feels like a supporting point.......

anyway, sorry if this has been pointed out already:

When we first hear of Ashara, in Catlyn 2, GoT, she is described in the servants tales as having " haunting violet eyes"

When Barristan Selmy remembers her at the end of ADWD he describes her as having "haunting purple eyes"

But when Meera tells Bran the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, Ashara is described as having "laughing purple eyes"

and when Ned Dayne tells Arya that his aunt, the Lady Ashara Dayne, threw herself from a cliff before he was born, her eyes are not mentioned, and i think that is because, as Ned says; "I never knew her".

Barristan Selmy admits that he kept his distance somewhat, she never knew he loved her, which could mean that he loved her from a distance, that he never REALLY got to know her as a person, and she had "haunting" purple eyes.

Catlyn never met Ashara Dayne, but was from the outset jealous of her and her possible relationship with Ned (she believes) The castle servants, who in most likelyhood didn't know her either (except possibly Whylla) describe her as having "haunting" voilet eyes.

The only people to describe her eyes differently, and in a positive light, are the Reeds, to them her eyes aren't "haunting" they're "laughing"!!

Put simply, those who only knew her a little saw her eyes as "haunting" but those close to her saw her eyes as "laughing".

I also think the movements of the wetnurse Whylla are very telling. When Catlyn arrives at Winterfell after the War, Jon and his wetnurse are already there and settled. However, Whylla RETURNS to Starfall to be Edric's (NED's) wetnurse just 2 or 3 yrs later. I feel the two families must still have been on good terms for this to happen. Considering what supposedly happened (both Ashara's and Arthur's deaths could be laid at Eddards door) it would have made more sense for the Daynes to hire a local wetnurse for Edric, than to send ALL THE WAY TO WINTERFELL for their old wetnurse!!!! It defys believability that they would do this if they were NOT on good terms. Why would they be on speaking terms if the deaths of 2 of their family could be laid at one mans' door? Put simply, they wouldn't.

[Summerqueen]

To have "haunting" eyes is not the same as to have "haunted" eyes. Barristan describes them as haunting, which implies an object--they haunt him. Her eyes struck him and stayed with him even when they weren't in his presence. He is haunted by them. That's all. His discription doesn't mean that there was anything particularly sad about them, necessarily.

Of course, they may well have been not-warm, or whatever, but the characterization is simply different, not necessarily contrary to the way others have described her eyes. I would not make too much of the disparity myself.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I think he is trying to say if Beric could vanish so easily with the help of the smallfolk so could Arthur Dayne. And why would the dayne family name one of their own Eddard if the original "killed" Ser Arthur?

Technically he's an Edric, not an Eddard.

[Anook of the North]

My point is the link with the Reeds. All descriptions of her say "haunting purple eyes",

except " the CRANNOGMAN saw a maid with laughing purple eyes"

I think the difference is significant, I think it signifies a closer relationship than we have been told about.

[Summerqueen]

Or it could be a description of Ashara's general gaiety at the start of the festivities, dancing, and whatnot. Barristan's remark may be the more peculiar/indicative of delicate feelings one, is the point I'm trying to make. He fancied her, and he may just be waxing poetic and mopey about her--as proof of his unrequited love.

There may well be something there, but as I said before, it's really not much evidence of anything.

[Anook of the North]

I see your point, especially about Barristan, and of course the "laughing " eyes could just be because she was happy at the feast. It's just the fact that GRRM uses "haunting" elsewhere to describe her eyes in servants tales from the first book, then comes back to that same description in the last book. I got the feeling it was deliberate, thats all!

You could be right, its not much evidence, but heres not much evidence for much of Asharas fate at all, and we all know how subtle GRRM can be. I just thought it was worth mentioning.

[FuriousGeorge]

Of course it is deliberate everything is deliberate but Ashara being Meera's mother is not the only explanation, nor the most likely (imo)

[Manderlay]

snip

First let me congratulate you on a very well written theory :thumbsup: , I don't think it falls under the category of crackpot since you have supported your theory with text and analysis and it certainly is a plausible theory. That being said there is one thing that conflicts with the theory and stands out, since you suggested that Howland was watching Ashara Dayne the whole time so was Barristan Selmy;

But Ashara's daughter had been still born, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost an perhaps for the man who dishonoured her as well at Harrenhal. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?

you have given explanation for Barristan is an unreliable narrator, however the quote was Barristan's own recollections of past events, the first part of Ashara throwing herself off the tower can be viewed as the most accepted story in westeros. but the last part is his own recollection of what happened at Harrenhal, since Barristan was in love with Ashara, he would have been watching her as well.

Again great post, it certainly has made me reconsider and very well written

Edit: I recommend this should be added to A Compendium of Theories, if it already hasn't

[Summerqueen]

I see your point, especially about Barristan, and of course the "laughing " eyes could just be because she was happy at the feast. It's just the fact that GRRM uses "haunting" elsewhere to describe her eyes in servants tales from the first book, then comes back to that same description in the last book. I got the feeling it was deliberate, thats all!

You could be right, its not much evidence, but heres not much evidence for much of Asharas fate at all, and we all know how subtle GRRM can be. I just thought it was worth mentioning.

We don't know the words Ned's soldiers used (I think you are referring to Cat's POV, where she hears about Ashara from the men who fought with Ned?). Their talk is summarized, not given as direct speech. The narrator could have chosen the word haunting simply as the best way to refer to eyes that stick in your mind beyond any common cause to remember them. It's much more effective (and affective) a word than "memorable", for example. It conveys a state of being, an experience. Ashara's eyes had this invasive effect on men, apparently. But that experience is not emphasized in the story of tKotLT. Could be a number of reasons why.

It seems fair to say, though, that Barristan means to convey that experience of Ashara, the same experience of her that Cat feels Ned may have had. If anything, the word choice makes a connection between Ned and Barristan, but their connection may not be indicative of lack of knowledge. It may only serve to emphasize that both men heard her siren call, etc. Perhaps Reed was immune to that call? Perhaps you (and others here) are right, and this word choice indicates that her amusement is not something others experienced (unlikely, I think). We simply don't know.

[WidlingWarrior]

It's an interesting theory, alot better than others I've read. You've definetly put a lot ofwork into it, so it sounds plausible. However, I just don't believe it. There are other explinations that don't involve mass cover-ups.

First of all, if Arthur Dayne is still alive why wasn't Jon at Greywater Watch with him? He would have a much easier job protecting Jon if they were in the same place... and no one can easily find Greywater Watch. It would be a much better place to hide Jon than Winterfell.

Secondly, Both Meera and Jojen are suprised that Bran hasn't heard the story of the Laughingtree Knight. Any extra details could have been added to attempt to get Bran to remember. Besides the people who Ashara danced with, you also have Robert Baratheon drinking with the skulls and kisses knight. Another detail that would probably be lost on Howland Reed at the time, since he knew neither of them. Most of the story is about Howlands observations of the Starks at the tourney. Anything important could have just been one of the Starks pointing it out to him. Since at the time Ned is pretty shy, he could be at there table pointing out all the great and accomplisehd people dancing with the woman he wants, and how he doesn't compare to them. There also may be some artistic liberties taken on GRRM's part to give some extra details that he wanted mentioned.

The ToJ events are a bit clouded already. There is any number of things that Howland could have done to distract, or ensnare Arthur long enough for Ned to kill him. Also "they" could refer to other people at ToJ, (maester, midwife, wetnurse, cook, etc).

Down at Starfall, if Ned and Ashara had some sort of relationship (Edric Dayne says they were "star-crossed lovers" or something) Then why wouldn't Ned go to tell her that he had to get married to Catlyn. Neds an honorable guy and wouldn't leave something like that to his bannerman. The Starks are respected by most of the North (except the Boltons and possibly a few others). They also seem to have respect from some of the other houses that still claim "blood of the First Men (Royce of the Vale). The Daynes themselves are an old house (10,000 years according to Darkstar) which would make them all First Men, and possible have a respect for the Starks.

Ned getting upset at the mention of Ashara while at Winterfell, could also be because he really loved her and hearing her name, thinking about her, was to painful for him. Also you really don't want to have people talking about an old love around your wife.

Wyla going to returning with Ned, it could just be that she was there and the Daynes had no use for her at the moment. I could also be wrong about this but did Ned return directly to Winterfel... I thought Cat was at Riverrun during the war, and he stopped there with Jon and Robb was already born.

[kiasyd]

you have given explanation for Barristan is an unreliable narrator, however the quote was Barristan's own recollections of past events, the first part of Ashara throwing herself off the tower can be viewed as the most accepted story in westeros. but the last part is his own recollection of what happened at Harrenhal, since Barristan was in love with Ashara, he would have been watching her as well.

In my understanding, the unreliability of Barristan as a narrator is not about the events themselves, but about the conclusions that he draws about them, since he is not the sharpest sword in the scabbard...

Again great post, it certainly has made me reconsider and very well written

Edit: I recommend this should be added to A Compendium of Theories, if it already hasn't

:agree:

[-Ghost-]

This is seriously awesome

[Waylin Stark]

I saw this topic a few days back and thought it was some idiot posting fake crackpot theories with only a line of "evidence".

But when I read most of this, I believe this deserves some merit.

The timing makes sense, and the locations visited fit the timeframe.

But overall, I think there are some inconsistencies, and the evidence doesn't really seem all that solid as a whole.

But that's just my opinion. Still, I think you're onto something.

[kiasyd]

Yes, as previously stated, Arthur Dayne's angle must be dropped:

From aGoT:

They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed.