Howland Reed + Ashara Dayne = Meera & Jojen?

[Veltigar]

Unless he just wasn't there to stop it. By the time he gets there Jon is in the NW. Nothing he can do about it.

Also: what if OP is right about the love affair but wrong about the fake death. AD loves HR. Gets pregnant. But her father forces her to drink moon tea (like a certain Tully) and she kills herself after loosing the baby and being denied her love.

...awww man. Now I'm sad. I like Op's theory better. But it would be asoif style tragic.

I believe in the HR + AD scenario as put forward by the OP. And I hope Arthur Dayne lives to (there is a little bit of evidence shown by the OP) but he needs to have a strong motive for letting Jon join the NW. Otherwise he's just a sell out and then I prefer him dead.

[Dragonmag170]

I believe in the HR + AD scenario as put forward by the OP. And I hope Arthur Dayne lives to (there is a little bit of evidence shown by the OP) but he needs to have a strong motive for letting Jon join the NW. Otherwise he's just a sell out and then I prefer him dead.

I feel like he had several great reasons. First, Jon would most likely be extremely safe in the watch. Second, all men have the right to make the choice for the watch; the same happened with Maester Aemon, who refused to take the throne due to his vows. Third, he cannot come out to really say "no" without revealing to Jon who Jon's parents are and without revealing his identity to the world. And finally, because Ned Stark allowed it.

I like this theory a lot. Good thinking!

[Lads]

Didnt GRRM himself told us "THERE SHALL BE NO NEW POVS." So i doubt that Arthur is alive and that we will ever learn the truth.

But it shoud possible to have a time skip in the past, some ned stark chapter.

[Veltigar]

I feel like he had several great reasons. First, Jon would most likely be extremely safe in the watch.

Of course Jon wouldn’t be safe. With his training he was bound to become a ranger someday and beyond the Wall it isn’t save at all.

Second, all men have the right to make the choice for the watch; the same happened with Maester Aemon, who refused to take the throne due to his vows. Third, he cannot come out to really say "no" without revealing to Jon who Jon's parents are and without revealing his identity to the world.

All handle these together. My point of objection is that Jon, without knowing who his parents are, can’t make an objective choice to join the watch. And if Arthur is still alive than Jon is his King (if not he should have crossed the narrow sea to seek out Viserys and Dany) and he’s bound by oath to listen to Jons orders. It would be his duty to inform Jon, since Jon by joining the NW would give up his Kingship (of course there is always the loophole that he didn’t know but I don’t think Ser Arthur would go for a cheap lawyer trick).

And finally, because Ned Stark allowed it.

Which means Jack all since Ned is not his boss and if Jon truly is King than Ned had no business in allowing it.

[Lissa Nymeros Martell]

Didnt GRRM himself told us "THERE SHALL BE NO NEW POVS." So i doubt that Arthur is alive and that we will ever learn the truth.

But it shoud possible to have a time skip in the past, some ned stark chapter.

Why would Arthur have to be a POV to be alive? I didn't realize it was conditional.

[Arthur Dayne's Honor]

Why would Arthur have to be a POV to be alive? I didn't realize it was conditional.

this. I'm pretty sure he is dead but I wouldn't be surprised if he was alive. He doesn't need a POV and plus GRRM has been wrong enforce he may add a few more

[Jalapenohitchhiker]

Not gonna lie, I immediately love any well written and well thought out theory claiming that important Daynes are alive. The only downside is that if this ends up being completely wrong then I will be quite disappointed.

[Northern Pride]

Some good stuff in here. Makes me wish I would of clicked on the thread months ago.

[Arthur Dayne's Honor]

Some good stuff in here. Makes me wish I would of clicked on the thread months ago.

exactly what i thought. When I first saw this I thought it was some troll getting a few laughs but then I got around to reading it and it made so much sense.

[King of Winters]

exactly what i thought. When I first saw this I thought it was some troll getting a few laughs but then I got around to reading it and it made so much sense.

I read it when it was first posted, but didn't really think much of it.

But now, I like it and is my favourite Ashara is alive theory.

[Rhaegar's Love]

I was sold half way through but I kept reading and I'm glad I did.

To the OP: :bowdown: :thumbsup:

I'm sorry if any of these (supporting points) have been brought up, I've only been able to skim the thread so far.

As far as Dawn being delivered to Starfall, if Arthur is alive but in hiding, I don't see this a problematic at all. On the contrary, I think he realized a sword like that would attract attention and transporting it all the way to the Neck could come at great risk, if the wrong person saw it. Risk is actually minimized by Dawn being left behind, lest the wrong person stumble upon it.

I've always had problems with Barristan's account of what happened to Ashara, especially with the "dishonor" part. Dorne has much more liberal views on this matter, so why would she consider herself as "dishonored" at all?

I have never seen Ashara as a damsel in distress type and this theory respects those hints to her character so much.

I'm really in love with this theory! Thanks so much for sharing it! :D

[Greymoon]

I love this. I don't have time to read through everything right now, but the theory seems sound and IMO it further explains why Howland Reed never went to war with Robb, if Arthur and Ashara are at the Neck, and if of course R+L = J.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Now that is a theory about Ashara that I subscribe in!

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

mind=blown

[Lissa Nymeros Martell]

How likely could it be that Qhorin Halfhand is Arthur Dayne? The timeline would fit and I could see Ned allowing Arthur to take the black.

[King of Winters]

How likely could it be that Qhorin Halfhand is Arthur Dayne? The timeline would fit and I could see Ned allowing Arthur to take the black.

Unlikely as Ser Arthur is said to have had dark hair and violet eyes. So Jon or any other member of the NW would have noticed the eyes.

[Lissa Nymeros Martell]

Unlikely as Ser Arthur is said to have had dark hair and violet eyes. So Jon or any other member of the NW would have noticed the eyes.

Thanks. I wasn't sure.

However; Jon (and many of the younger members of the NW) wouldn't be familiar with the Daynes and their violet eyes. Additionally, daynes/targaryens aren't the only people in westeros with violet eyes. it's possible older brothers of the nights watch might know but not mention it. Like that Maester Aemon was a targaryen.

I admit it's just a passing thought. But it would fit the "Arthur Dayne is alive but where the heck is he theory"

[Arthur Dayne's Honor]

Thanks. I wasn't sure.

However; Jon (and many of the younger members of the NW) wouldn't be familiar with the Daynes and their violet eyes. Additionally, daynes/targaryens aren't the only people in westeros with violet eyes. it's possible older brothers of the nights watch might know but not mention it. Like that Maester Aemon was a targaryen.

I admit it's just a passing thought. But it would fit the "Arthur Dayne is alive but where the heck is he theory"

believe in your heart and he will always live

[Greymoon]

...Howland Reed has some green seeing abilities, yes? Like Jojen. We know that he lets his children go to Winterfell, and afterwards Jojen and Meera travel all the way up to the wall, apparently not too worried about returning home. That makes me think that Howland Reed knew this would happen.

He probably knows about his son's declining health, and might know that this is how things are supposed to be.

So if HR + AD is true, and Arthur is in fact alive...Howland could have persuaded him that letting Jon go to the Wall was for the best. That it was meant to be. If Arthur was such a good friend to Rhaegar, he'd have seen his full of prophecies/dreams and all that. So it probably wouldn't even take a lot of convincing.

[Mayura]

There is a giant giant plot hole in this theory... Why would Ashara Dayne needs to hide if she was with Howland Reed? It makes no sense unfortunately. I know some of you have said that maybe she is involved in another plot line we don't know about, but then it is pure pure speculation.

If you re-read carefully Barristan's POVs, he seems to be constantly comparing his story with Ashara with Daenerys. When he says that girls always prefer fire to mud even though fire consumes you while mud can help you grow, can help you live, it seemed to me that it was conveying Barristan's regrets. Ashara didn't look at him because he was "mud". She was looking at someone else who was "fire" (Barristan says "all girls prefer fire to mud", he seems to be talking about a past experience and we know he refers A LOT to Ashara and his regrets towards her). If even says later on that he wonders how things would have gone if he had told her he loved her and she had relied on him instead of Stark. If that POV of Barristan was referring to AD + HR, then it would mean Barristan knew she got with the mudman. Then if Barristan knows, other people know. And I doubt that, then, the rumour of Ashara x Ned Stark would have continued, if anything they would be talking about Ashara and Howland Reed.

The other thing I don't buy about this theory is the argument about the story told by Meera. Of course, Howland Reed is her dad, it seems only natural that he has told them the story from his own perspective. So this is how Meera tells it to Bran as well. Meera and Jojen ask two questions to Bran, because they are both surprised Ned Stark didn't tell him about 1) Lyanna Stark and the knight of the laughing tree (Jojen insists "you are sure your dad never told you this story?") 2) Ashara Dayne, Meera is surprised Bran hasn't heard of her.

It seems clear that, with all of the rumors surrounding a possible relationship between Ashara and Ned (imo "there is no smoke without fire", in other words, the story between a Stark and Ashara Dayne is far too widespread for nothing at all to have happened. I don't know with which Stark it was or what happened exactly, but I truly believe there was something between Ashara x a Stark) , the fact that the two were single when they met at Harrenhal and maybe genuinely loved each other, that the Daynes have a link with the Starks and that the Reeds are surprised Bran has never heard of these stories before. What seems to come out of their discussion is that the Reeds know of these stories surrounding the Rebellion and obviously they haven't been told to keep it a secret from Bran, they are even surprised he doesn't know.

What I think happened at the TOJ, is that Howland Reed gained a lot of informations from the Isle of Faces and so on. I wouldn't be surprised if he was a greenseer himself and he convinced Arthur Dayne to spare Ned Stark. Arthur was close to Rhaegar and it is highly possible Rhaegar had told him about his prophecies. If Howland mentionned knowing a threat was indeed coming from the North and that the PTWP would need the support of the Old Gods and of the Starks, or Howland could also reveal to Dayne that by killing Ned he's kill the person his sister loves, who knows, every scenario is possible, we don't know... What I guess happened to Arthur Dayne is that he committed suicide. Because he knew of a dangerous secret and he failed his mission by finally giving up to the usurper friend's demands. Once he let Ned live, he was helping the usurper's camp and he couldn't join the KG of the man who killed his best bud without breaching his honor. I can't imagine the Sword of Morning, member of the King's Guard hiding in the North for 16+ years and abandonning his duty.

It is a lovely idea but it is far too inconsistent with the story IMO. I believe Arthur Dayne to have died at the TOJ and I believe Ashara is possibly alive but there would be absolutely no reason for her to hide her identity if she is Mrs Reed. Nobody cares about the crannogman and the "dishonored lady".