Howland Reed + Ashara Dayne = Meera & Jojen?

[Jamada]

Is it?

It is certainly a second possibility, but I can't see why it should be more accurate than the other.

Anyway, I would be pleased if the sword of the dawn can have been secretly alive the whole time. I'm leaving the discussion, there's no more concrete data do be discussed.. just opinions.

As far as I can see, it's unambiguous. I can understand why some may get caught up on "against three" (and I'm certain GRRM quite specifically wrote it that way to mislead readers) but "against" is a preposition that doesn't modify the preceding subject. For an example of a modifying preposition, consider "They were seven and/plus three; only two lived" - that would definitely imply that the seven and three are being considered together. To compare and contrast, consider "They were ten heroes with an army behind them, yet only four survived" - the "four" there doesn't necessarily mean that the army got completely destroyed; all it means is that six of the heroes got killed.

To clarify what I mean:

"They were seven."

"[They were seven and] they were against three." No contradiction here. The second "they" refers to the same group of seven indicated by the first "they".

"[They were seven and they were against three yet] only two (of them) survived." No contradictions. "of them" is implied, with "them" referring to the same group of seven. In short, it progresses naturally without ambiguity.

[edited for further clarity.]

[James March]

/snip

Man, I already said I won't discuss it.

I am not an english man, thus I am not entitled to say anything.

But in my own mother language - in which against is not additive too - such a sentence would still have ambiguous meaning. Hence I can't really say what you argue, though I'm fairly sure you're convinced of your own opinion.

EDIT: in answer to next post:

As I said, I believe that is ambiguous, you believe it is not. Is there something more that I can say? No. Thus I did not discuss it, I just cleared out my position without adding meat onto the fire. But clearly you enjoy telling people they're wrong just because you have a different opinion.

EDIT2:

My apologies, I just thought that by "show my assertion is correct" you meant objectively correct. I've misinterpreted your words, it's my fault. :-)

And yes, that is my opinion. I commented to clarify how my linguistic position leads to a certain subjective opinion, not to dispute your right to have your own opinion. The fact is that by chance - apparently, yet you confirmed me that was just my wrong impression - you don't recognize this is a subjective matter, so my words sound to you just like "I only want to dispute you". Also I feel kind of weird that if I find something I didn't say earlier that may help understand why we have different opinions, I'm being bashed because I previously asserted my intention of leaving the discussion because I felt I didn't have anything more to add to it. It wasn't a NW vow, I mean.

EDIT3: ahah, I don't remember why we are discussing and editing anymore.. where's the nearest inn? let me offer you a beer.. :laugh: Seriously!

[Jamada]

Man, I already said I won't discuss it.

I am not an english man, thus I am not entitled to say anything.

But in my own mother language - in which against is not additive too - such a sentence would still have ambiguous meaning. Hence I can't really say what you argue, though I'm fairly sure you're convinced of your own opinion.

You've just contradicted yourself by discussing it....

Anyways, it may be an opinion, but I think my analysis is clear enough to show why my assertion is correct.

[edit to respond to your edit:] I haven't told anyone that they're wrong. I've prefaced my own statements with "As far as I can see" and the like to make it clear that I'm speaking according to my opinion. What I will tell you is that my opinion has a clearly defined logic to it, detailed in my previous post.

Also, commenting to say "no comment" qualifies as commenting. Likewise, making the statement that "There's no more concrete data to discuss, just opinions" itself is only an opinion. If you truly had nothing to discuss, then why did you make a comment just to dispute me?

[edit on an edit about an edit on an edit]: cool, cool... NERD RAGE!! :P (btw, i wasn't bashing you. i was pointing out an inconsistency. is that not allowed?)

[Daphnaerys Seaworth]

This was nicely written,fun to read and very good points you made in there.

This is definitely far from crackpottery...This could actually be true, Howland has always been a mystery to me and this theory could help to further ties stuff up an explain the significance of Meera and Jojen helping the younger Starks since Book 2.

Oh I am really hoping for a Howland Reed Prologue or Epilogue in TWOW!

[King of Winters]

This was nicely written,fun to read and very good points you made in there.

This is definitely far from crackpottery...This could actually be true, Howland has always been a mystery to me and this theory could help to further ties stuff up an explain the significance of Meera and Jojen helping the younger Starks since Book 2.

Oh I am really hoping for a Howland Reed Prologue or Epilogue in TWOW!

No! That means he'll die then :frown5:

[Arthur Dayne's Honor]

Bump this thread needs to live on!

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I had seen the A+H=M&J idea knocked around but took it as ludicrous so hadn't ever read the theory. but Fuck me & colour me convinced!

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I had seen the A+H=M&J idea knocked around but took it as ludicrous so hadn't ever read the theory. but Fuck me & colour me convinced!

Also my reaction. :D

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I've had a school holidays sojourn, When I closed my laptop I'd seen the thread title and ignored it due to it sounding so darn silly, but returned to see yourself and several other posters who's opinions and ideas I generally tend to hold in high regard giving credence to the theory so I just had to read it. :) I'm glad I did.

[Light a wight tonight]

Skipped this topic first time around. Too much going on, both on the forum and real life. Shouldn't have.

I've always thought that Ashara's death was faked. The theory that she married Howland is a bit "out there" but seems well reasoned.

Now, how about Ashara being the Knight of the Laughing Tree? You might expect the sister of the Sword of the Morning to be quite a fighter. And maybe Dawn is in the Neck, not Starfall. If it's Lightbringer that would put it closer to where the action will be.

[The Mother of The Others]

What I'm discovering is an online community of people hugely in favor of Ashara getting some nookie, whether it's secret nookie from the past that only now gets revealed to have happened, or future nookie with Raven after they're reunited and their old parts are magically lubed and cleared for hot action by their physician, Maester Spanksalot. People want to know that Ashara got some or will get some.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

Whoa :eek:

I'm sold :cheers:

[Techelles]

What I'm discovering is an online community of people hugely in favor of Ashara getting some nookie, whether it's secret nookie from the past that only now gets revealed to have happened, or future nookie with Raven after they're reunited and their old parts are magically lubed and cleared for hot action by their physician, Maester Spanksalot. People want to know that Ashara got some or will get some.

20 long pages, and finally someone jumps straight to the heart of the matter. Of course it was you, MoTO.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Skipped this topic first time around. Too much going on, both on the forum and real life. Shouldn't have.

I've always thought that Ashara's death was faked. The theory that she married Howland is a bit "out there" but seems well reasoned.

Now, how about Ashara being the Knight of the Laughing Tree? You might expect the sister of the Sword of the Morning to be quite a fighter. And maybe Dawn is in the Neck, not Starfall. If it's Lightbringer that would put it closer to where the action will be.

GRRM has said explicitly that Dawn is at Starfall. He can be dodgy, vague, half-truthful, but he doesn't ever just lie.

And Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree.

[Light a wight tonight]

GRRM has said explicitly that Dawn is at Starfall. He can be dodgy, vague, half-truthful, but he doesn't ever just lie.

And Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree.

You just haven't caught Martin lying. And we really don't know who the KotLT is. Lyanna's just the most usual candidate.

[yolkboy]

You just haven't caught Martin lying.

Have you? Please share if so.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

You just haven't caught Martin lying. And we really don't know who the KotLT is. Lyanna's just the most usual candidate.

I assume you have examples of when he has flat-out not told the truth to someone asking a good-faith question? Let's have them!

The KotLT is one of those things that hasn't been confirmed but is nonetheless obvious.

[Light a wight tonight]

I assume you have examples of when he has flat-out not told the truth to someone asking a good-faith question? Let's have them!

The KotLT is one of those things that hasn't been confirmed but is nonetheless obvious.

Different qualification between not lying when asked a good faith question and "doesn't ever just lie". Old saying about a half-truth being a whole lie, too. Or to answer your question directly, no I have no sure knowledge of him flat out not telling the truth when asked a good-faith question. Which is a straighter answer than Martin gives on certain subjects.

Lyanna is obviously the KotLT until something more obvious comes along. Which is not saying that Ashara is more obvious, but she is an interesting alternative.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Different qualification between not lying when asked a good faith question and "doesn't ever just lie". Old saying about a half-truth being a whole lie, too. Or to answer your question directly, no I have no sure knowledge of him flat out not telling the truth when asked a good-faith question. Which is a straighter answer than Martin gives on certain subjects.

This is what he said:

Q: What happened to Ser Arthur Dayne's sword Dawn after Ned brought it back to Ashara?

A: Dawn remains at Starfall, until another Sword of the Morning shall arise.

This is not him hedging about Kingsguard vows. Someone asked straight up where Dawn was, and he unambiguously answered. Meaning, if Dawn is hiding in the Neck, he lied.

[Light a wight tonight]

[snip]

To avoid further bloodshed (mine) I'm going to concede.