Howland Reed + Ashara Dayne = Meera & Jojen?

[Maester Crypt]

So, by your logic, Jon can't be Rhaegar's child. There's also something interesting Op mentions about the eyes.

From what I remember, their eyes were green? Nothing in their description makes me think of Ashara, unless I missed something.

[butterbumps!]

From what I remember, their eyes were green? Nothing in their description makes me think of Ashara, unless I missed something.

First thing: Meera's eyes are green, but Jojen's turned green after he had that fever. His eyes were a different color before that, which we're never told.

But on another note, the genetics don't follow those sorts of logics. Rhaenys (Elia and Rhaegar's baby) bore no Targ resemblance even though she was half Targ. The same is true with Jon-- he doesn't look like a Targ. Same with all of Robert's bastards-- no matter what coloring the mother had, all those children came out with blue eyes and coal black hair.

So their appearances really don't rule out this possibility.

[yolkboy]

From what I remember, their eyes were green? Nothing in their description makes me think of Ashara, unless I missed something.

I was refering to Op's observation about Jojens greywater fever, greensight, green eyes etc.

Regardless of that one, why is Jon, by appearance, 0 pc Targ?

[lostinwesteros]

Granted, I am woefully deficient when it comes to preceding history, but I'm catching up slowly but surely. This is a new one for me. I really like it, though and am going to look up the references you mentioned (as well as the ones theory discounters have mentioned, too, to be objective). Howland Reed is himself such a mystery, as is the history of Jojen and Meera before they show up at Winterfell. The Daynes obviously played a really significant part in the history, given the references to them throughout ASOIAF. Once Martin finishes ASOIAF, it's be really great if he'd go back and do a prequel to flesh out all this.

[NorthRemembers]

Now this is a realy cool theory. It totally explains why Greywater Watch is the burmuda triangle of Westeros.

[Barristan the G.O.A.T]

Thinking about this logically why would Ashara Dayne one of the most beautiful women in Westeros and a member of a major Dornish house, fall for a small, slender crannogman who holds no power, wealth, or titles. Crannogman are referred to as swamp people by southerners. This theory although very well constructed sounds like you are taking two of your favorite characters (Howland Reed and Arthur Dayne) and trying to tie together their stories.

[Dr. Pepper]

Thinking about this logically why would Ashara Dayne one of the most beautiful women in Westeros and a member of a major Dornish house, fall for a small, slender crannogman who holds no power, wealth, or titles. Crannogman are referred to as swamp people by southerners.

Howland holds at least power and titles. He's leader of the Neck, Lord of Greywater Watch. Dornishmen are also looked down on by other Westerosi. Howland's looks are unknown, and even if they were, we already have examples of beautiful women ending up with somewhat unfortunate-looking men. Cat and Ned, Lynesse and Jorah, etc.

[The Answer]

To the OP! You seriously made my day, awesome.

The fact that the people disagreeing with you are grasping at straws makes me believe it even more.

Keep it up!

[Barristan the G.O.A.T]

Howland holds at least power and titles. He's leader of the Neck, Lord of Greywater Watch. Dornishmen are also looked down on by other Westerosi. Howland's looks are unknown, and even if they were, we already have examples of beautiful women ending up with somewhat unfortunate-looking men. Cat and Ned, Lynesse and Jorah, etc.

Am I missing something or does Lord of Greywater watch carry any weight. I am a Howland fan but lets get serious here. You are comparing Ned and Cat to Howland and Ashara. Neds marriage was political as Ned was lord paramount of the North. He served as ward to the Lord Paramount of the Vale. Howland is the leader leader of a people seldom seen. Lynesse and Jorah got together due to Jorah's tourney prowess ( defeated Jamie Lannister), while Howland was just embarrassed by squires and had to be defended by a women.

[Morienthar]

First thing: Meera's eyes are green, but Jojen's turned green after he had that fever. His eyes were a different color before that, which we're never told.

But on another note, the genetics don't follow those sorts of logics. Rhaenys (Elia and Rhaegar's baby) bore no Targ resemblance even though she was half Targ. The same is true with Jon-- he doesn't look like a Targ. Same with all of Robert's bastards-- no matter what coloring the mother had, all those children came out with blue eyes and coal black hair.

So their appearances really don't rule out this possibility.

Targ appearance is a recessive gene,That is apparent.

Rhaenys got her mothers features while,Aegon got the fathers,with recessive genes,It's like if you have anymore than 2 kids the chances of the recessive gene present in both parents showing up in the child increases almost exponentially.

[Morienthar]

Am I missing something or does Lord of Greywater watch carry any weight. I am a Howland fan but lets get serious here. You are comparing Ned and Cat to Howland and Ashara. Neds marriage was political as Ned was lord paramount of the North. He served as ward to the Lord Paramount of the Vale. Howland is the leader leader of a people seldom seen. Lynesse and Jorah got together due to Jorah's tourney prowess ( defeated Jamie Lannister), while Howland was just embarrassed by squires and had to be defended by a women.

Don't forget managed to help kill her brother.The greatest Knight alive.

[butterbumps!]

Targ appearance is a recessive gene,That is apparent.

Rhaenys got her mothers features while,Aegon got the fathers,with recessive genes,It's like if you have anymore than 2 kids the chances of the recessive gene present in both parents showing up in the child increases almost exponentially.

This theory might not be correct, but the genetics are NOT the glue in the gears.

Again, I point to Robert and his bastards. All 8 that Varys knows of show that everything else "yield before the coal."

[Barristan the G.O.A.T]

Don't forget managed to help kill her brother.The greatest Knight alive.

First of All Barristan has the greatest resume ever but that's beside the point. Howland helped kill her brother well after the tourney at Harrenhal when they "Fell in Love" so your point is moot.

[Dr. Pepper]

Am I missing something or does Lord of Greywater watch carry any weight. I am a Howland fan but lets get serious here. You are comparing Ned and Cat to Howland and Ashara. Neds marriage was political as Ned was lord paramount of the North. He served as ward to the Lord Paramount of the Vale. Howland is the leader leader of a people seldom seen. Lynesse and Jorah got together due to Jorah's tourney prowess ( defeated Jamie Lannister), while Howland was just embarrassed by squires and had to be defended by a women.

I think you might be missing something. House Reed has more than a handful of sworn houses under them. The Lord of Greywater watch is lord of his region much like, I dunno, Lord of Starfall is lord of his region. We don't even know exactly how influential House Dayne is in Dorne, while we have explicit indications of how influential House Reed is in the North. Howland Reed was a good friend to Ned, he was charged by Robb to defend the Neck and he was trusted highly enough to receive those carrying Robb's will. Bran was instructed to greet the Reed children particularly warmly.

I am comparing Ned and Cat because you brought up the looks department to 'logically' conclude that Ashara the Beautiful couldn't love Howland the small and slender. Cat did not love Ned when they married and was not attracted to him, did not even come to love him because he was a wealthy and powerful man. She came to love him for who he was. I find it problematic that you are shooting down this theory because you do not care for the idea of a beautiful woman being interested in a small, slender man who cannot joust or defend himself against three squires. It's not like we have many examples of matches of women going for the wealth and power and handsomeness actually working out. Ned and Cat are fairly unique in this.

I admit, I find love stories as part of theories to generally be quite annoying. A love story for this one actually works quite well. Howland was unique as an adventurer. Crannogmen are seldom seen outside the Neck, yet Howland spent an entire winter outside the Neck, on the Isle of Faces. That seems to me to be enough to, at the very least, garner interest.

[Maester Crypt]

I was refering to Op's observation about Jojens greywater fever, greensight, green eyes etc.

Regardless of that one, why is Jon, by appearance, 0 pc Targ?

Most people tend to associate Targs with their eye color or hair when they comment on someone looking Targaryan. Jon in many ways could look like Rhaegar, but when people see Jon they believe he's Neds, so they look for the Stark qualities in him. Since he does not have the eyes or hair color of the traditional inter-bred Targs.

[Barristan the G.O.A.T]

I think you might be missing something. House Reed has more than a handful of sworn houses under them. The Lord of Greywater watch is lord of his region much like, I dunno, Lord of Starfall is lord of his region. We don't even know exactly how influential House Dayne is in Dorne, while we have explicit indications of how influential House Reed is in the North. Howland Reed was a good friend to Ned, he was charged by Robb to defend the Neck and he was trusted highly enough to receive those carrying Robb's will. Bran was instructed to greet the Reed children particularly warmly.

I am comparing Ned and Cat because you brought up the looks department to 'logically' conclude that Ashara the Beautiful couldn't love Howland the small and slender. Cat did not love Ned when they married and was not attracted to him, did not even come to love him because he was a wealthy and powerful man. She came to love him for who he was. I find it problematic that you are shooting down this theory because you do not care for the idea of a beautiful woman being interested in a small, slender man who cannot joust or defend himself against three squires. It's not like we have many examples of matches of women going for the wealth and power and handsomeness actually working out. Ned and Cat are fairly unique in this.

I admit, I find love stories as part of theories to generally be quite annoying. A love story for this one actually works quite well. Howland was unique as an adventurer. Crannogmen are seldom seen outside the Neck, yet Howland spent an entire winter outside the Neck, on the Isle of Faces. That seems to me to be enough to, at the very least, garner interest.

So Jyana Reed= Ashara Dayne ok then

[FuriousGeorge]

To the OP! You seriously made my day, awesome.

The fact that the people disagreeing with you are grasping at straws makes me believe it even more.

Keep it up!

Haha what are you on about? So easily led just because certain people have taken the theory up and said they like it. I would hope that even those saying it is a good theory would still agree it is way more unlikely than it is likely, and it is certainly not backed up by the same sort of evidence and Rhaegar and Lyanna. Also just because something is well written, thought out and elaborated with reference to the text that doesn't make it better than any other idea IMO if it turns out to be wrong. It means OP is probably smarter than someone who writes 'Asha could be a man', but it is still pointless if it's not true.

[Lykos]

Barristan the G.O.A.T, Ajer Dayne ;)

[The Answer]

Haha what are you on about? So easily led just because certain people have taken the theory up and said they like it. I would hope that even those saying it is a good theory would still agree it is way more unlikely than it is likely, and it is certainly not backed up by the same sort of evidence and Rhaegar and Lyanna. Also just because something is well written, thought out and elaborated with reference to the text that doesn't make it better than any other idea IMO if it turns out to be wrong. It means OP is probably smarter than someone who writes 'Asha could be a man', but it is still pointless if it's not true.

What am I on about?

I woke up this morning, it blew my mind, and I think it could be true... I could care less who else likes it. I add credibility when the geniuses here are making up bull shit to disprove it. If an educated poster does disprove it, so be it. But for now that's not the case.

I hope Maidenandwarrior is on to something.

[butterbumps!]

Haha what are you on about? So easily led just because certain people have taken the theory up and said they like it. I would hope that even those saying it is a good theory would still agree it is way more unlikely than it is likely, and it is certainly not backed up by the same sort of evidence and Rhaegar and Lyanna. Also just because something is well written, thought out and elaborated with reference to the text that doesn't make it better than any other idea IMO if it turns out to be wrong. It means OP is probably smarter than someone who writes 'Asha could be a man', but it is still pointless if it's not true.

I can't say I subscribe to the theory. I'm not sure if it's correct, or will play out at all this way. But I like it very much, and not just because of the way the OP wrote it. The thing that's fantastic about this theory is that it's composed of gems that are woven throughout that would make this not merely plausible as some abstract search for proof, but a layered part of the story that could have really interesting implications. Not only that, it doesn't fall against any fact or contradiction we're been given (and I'm referring to the H+A segment of this only, I should add).

The thing is, I strongly disagree that this theory is "pointless" unless it's true. It could be proven false or never answered or proven true, and in any of those cases, I think it adds something for discussion. I think the analysis alone is interesting enough to be valuable, given that this is a really strong thesis.

I'm actually less interested at this point in trying to prove it either way (I can't find anything that could discount it yet), but rather, taking this premise and seeing what sort of implication it could have in the story. Not that I have to subscribe to the theory itself to do this, and of course with the understanding that it would be speculative to draw extensions from it. Even as a thought experiment it has value. I wouldn't speculate like this on just any topic; I think this one is built strongly enough to see where it could lead.