[BOOK SPOILERS] Nitpick without repercussion?

[ladyinblack]

seriously, how can anyone say michelle fairley isn't a good actress tho, jesus christ - she's spectacular.

Absolutely agree

[Cas Stark]

Another nit pick, and I admit this comes out of my well known hatred of the Talisa storyline...but, you are Robb Stark, you've been stabbed, men dying all around you, and what do you do? Call out to your best still alive bannerman? Draw your sword and prepare to go down fighting? Address Lord Frey while still alive to see if you can talk your way out of it, as your mother does?

Or, ignore escape, ignore even killing some of your murderers and crawl over and cry over your dead wife for the last few precious minutes you have. Of course this is what Show Robb would do, since he cared more about his wife than anything else.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

Another nit pick, and I admit this comes out of my well known hatred of the Talisa storyline...but, you are Robb Stark, you've been stabbed, men dying all around you, and what do you do? Call out to your best still alive bannerman? Draw your sword and prepare to go down fighting? Address Lord Frey while still alive to see if you can talk your way out of it, as your mother does?

Or, ignore escape, ignore even killing some of your murderers and crawl over and cry over your dead wife for the last few precious minutes you have. Of course this is what Show Robb would do, since he cared more about his wife than anything else.

None of his men were armed and he had been shot with multiple bolts. His wife and all his men were being killed as he struggled to move or stand up, and closest to him lay his dead wife and dead unborn child. Do you really think Robb Stark would try to escape while his mother had 20 crossbows pointed at her and his wife and men lay dead on the floor? This isn't even a nitpick this is just being ridiculous.

[ladyinblack]

I wish they would have mentioned on the show or depicted Greywinds bond with Robb---the battle of the Golden Tooth, Whispering Woods and Greywinds' warning Robb of danger Together man and wolf were a hell of a team...In the book, Catelyn sees it. She knows the direwolfs were meant to keep the Stark children safe

R.I.P. Greywind

[Cas Stark]

None of his men were armed and he had been shot with multiple bolts. His wife and all his men were being killed as he struggled to move or stand up, and closest to him lay his dead wife and dead unborn child. Do you really think Robb Stark would try to escape while his mother had 20 crossbows pointed at her and his wife and men lay dead on the floor? This isn't even a nitpick this is just being ridiculous.

I think he would do something other than cradle his dead wife in his arms-- and if I remember the scene correctly he crawls over to her--like try to get someone's sword or fight them or try to get to his mother or address Walder Frey instead of giving up, I thought it was one of the more smarmy touches but played into how the show wanted to portray the RW, the focus on the relationship aspect.

[~DarkHorse~]

I liked Emilia Clarke in the beginning, her looks for Dany I mean

idk what happened that she just looks plain now, and Dany is supposed to be absolutely gorgeous

Idk if it's her hair color that changed, or she got tanned or it's the lightning lol Something changed there

First time she showed up in the series, during that bathtub scene, she really looked close like the Dany I have in mind

It's also said that Dany is slender

I think her eyebrows are thicker and darker now.

[The_Lone_Direwolf]

I wish they would have mentioned on the show or depicted Greywinds bond with Robb---the battle of the Golden Tooth, Whispering Woods and Greywinds' warning Robb of danger Together man and wolf were a hell of a team...In the book, Catelyn sees it. She knows the direwolfs were meant to keep the Stark children safe

R.I.P. Greywind

I thought afterwards, and this will be a little controversial because it isn't in the books but it would have been great that in their dying states Robb and Greywind made a real connection. As dying Greywind was starring at Arya it cuts to Robb inside and he says to himself "Arya" but kinda not understand why. That would have been pretty powerful and related directly to what Jojen says to Bran earlier in the ep that warging "is in his blood"...

[ServantOnIce]

I just reread the three chapters leading up to and including the Red Wedding--I haven't read them in close to ten years maybe. They were amazing. Dacey Mormont, Smalljon and Greatjon, the Glovers, Jason Manderly--all of these rich side characters who loved and supported their King, who would (and did) die for him. Their loyalty is a huge part of what made the outcome so tragic, their futile struggle to save their King, Umber flipping over tables, Dacey smashing an armed guard in the face while only moments before being described as shy, beautiful when she danced with Robb. It was all so full of pathos, and it resonates, and none of it was overly gory in description. It hit me as much as the last time I read it, and reminded me why I loved Robb's story, his campaign, and much of my care for his character came from those of his bannermen who loved him so much, the loyalty he inspired.

None of this transferred to the screen, not in three seasons, and not on Sunday night. It was an utter waste of what could have been one of the most tragic moments in television history, but we were deprived of it due to the lack of vision of the creators of this show. So awful how it turned out, I have been in shock for the past two days--at just how bad this all turned out. I am so disappointed, but at the same time, I am glad I could go back and read those chapters and be returned right into those moments--the show didn't ruin that for me at least.

Part of me strongly agrees with this and felt empty after the scene. Other parts of me calmed down and realize for what they have done for the show and what they (Dave and Dan) done with the adaptation overall that it was perfectly executed for TV.

I have this conflict but have surrendered in favor of Dave and Dan.

[JuiceTonk]

Here's a new nitpick!

The Freys who slit the throats of the Starks in the yard that Arya sees: They say "Gettin' ready to go home to Winterfell, eh?" Followed by the Stark men laughing and agreeing cheerfully like they can't wait to go back to their homes.

For all they know, their families have been killed or turned into thralls by the Ironborn, and their houses may not even be left standing. I'd expect a reaction of somber silence, or if they're gonna drunkenly yell something, more along the lines of "Yeah we're gonna fuck those ironborn for what they did!" Super tiny nitpick, but I figured this is the place to make it!

[morgan1028]

Here's a new nitpick!

The Freys who slit the throats of the Starks in the yard that Arya sees: They say "Gettin' ready to go home to Winterfell, eh?" Followed by the Stark men laughing and agreeing cheerfully like they can't wait to go back to their homes.

For all they know, their families have been killed or turned into thralls by the Ironborn, and their houses may not even be left standing. I'd expect a reaction of somber silence, or if they're gonna drunkenly yell something, more along the lines of "Yeah we're gonna fuck those ironborn for what they did!" Super tiny nitpick, but I figured this is the place to make it!

I noticed that too. Wasn't the plan to take Casterly Rock? Doesn't matter now, I guess

[Roose Seal]

What are these "direwolves" everyone keeps referring to?

[Dragonstoned]

Here's a new nitpick!

The Freys who slit the throats of the Starks in the yard that Arya sees: They say "Gettin' ready to go home to Winterfell, eh?" Followed by the Stark men laughing and agreeing cheerfully like they can't wait to go back to their homes.

For all they know, their families have been killed or turned into thralls by the Ironborn, and their houses may not even be left standing. I'd expect a reaction of somber silence, or if they're gonna drunkenly yell something, more along the lines of "Yeah we're gonna fuck those ironborn for what they did!" Super tiny nitpick, but I figured this is the place to make it!

Heh, good spot.

[LilJonUmber]

It was an utter waste of what could have been one of the most tragic moments in television history, but we were deprived of it due to the lack of vision of the creators of this show. So awful how it turned out, I have been in shock for the past two days--at just how bad this all turned out. I am so disappointed, but at the same time, I am glad I could go back and read those chapters and be returned right into those moments--the show didn't ruin that for me at least.

The reason you found the RW to be so crushing was that Robb's loyal bannermen were slew? Really?

Their demise was a blip on the radar for me. Cat's death, Robb's death and Arya being so close, but so far (in that order). That's what I found most heart-wrenching, and I don't think I'm in the minority.

You're entitled to your opinion but, in mine, this is a gross overreaction, and an overly harsh criticism of a scene near-universally viewed as crushing ...shocking ...disturbing. This is based on every friend and family member I spoke to afterward -- and every reviewer (minus Elio) -- who were invariably floored by the RW.

TBH, I can even get being "lukewarm" on the way it was done (I suppose), but to say "awful" and an "utter waste" seems a bit much.

[Winter In My Heart]

I think he would do something other than cradle his dead wife in his arms-- and if I remember the scene correctly he crawls over to her--like try to get someone's sword or fight them or try to get to his mother or address Walder Frey instead of giving up, I thought it was one of the more smarmy touches but played into how the show wanted to portray the RW, the focus on the relationship aspect.

Did he fight back in the books? I can't remember, I just remember how Cat and the bannermen were doing things. I agree though it would have been nice to see him fight and not completely give up. Catelyn lost her husband, and all his siblings which is more than him just loosing an idiot (I don't know where Winterfell is) wife and unborn child. He should have tried to fight, or just do something other than basically have given up.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

The reason you found the RW to be so crushing was that Robb's loyal bannermen were slew? Really?

Their demise was a blip on the radar for me. Cat's death, Robb's death and Arya being so close, but so far (in that order). That's what I found most heart-wrenching, and I don't think I'm in the minority.

You're entitled to your opinion but, in mine, this is a gross overreaction, and an overly harsh criticism of a scene near-universally viewed as crushing ...shocking ...disturbing. This is based on every friend and family member I spoke to afterward -- and every reviewer (minus Elio) -- who were invariably floored by the RW.

TBH, I can even get being "lukewarm" on the way it was done (I suppose), but to say "awful" and an "utter waste" seems a bit much.

Well, your opinion is wrong.

And look closer, it's not the bannermen that made it sad, it is absolutely Robb losing everything, but the bannermen and their loyalty are a character device Martin used to make us care more for Robb's failure. Their loyalty inspires our loyalty. But I think I already explained it in my last post. Pathos. Without love between characters, without loyalty, how are we supposed to feel it.

It was awful on screen. Horribly over violent, intended to shock with gore and violence, when that isn't the point.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

Did he fight back in the books? I can't remember, I just remember how Cat and the bannermen were doing things. I agree though it would have been nice to see him fight and not completely give up. Catelyn lost her husband, and all his siblings which is more than him just loosing an idiot (I don't know where Winterfell is) wife and unborn child. He should have tried to fight, or just do something other than basically have given up.

He went down fairly quick--the first one hit in the attack with a bolt, and spent most of it under a table protected by Smalljon (until his head was lopped off). He did get up at the end, but the fight was over and he was filled with bolts, and everyone but he and his mother were dead. Their weapons were on the wall as well. He seemed crushed by the weight of it all, unable to move, which I think the show tried to recreate.

[Winter In My Heart]

He went down fairly quick--the first one hit in the attack with a bolt, and spent most of it under a table protected by Smalljon (until his head was lopped off). He did get up at the end, but the fight was over and he was filled with bolts, and everyone but he and his mother were dead. Their weapons were on the wall as well. He seemed crushed by the weight of it all, unable to move, which I think the show tried to recreate.

Ah okay. I kind of remember. He basically couldn't move much physically I'm guessing? To be honest in the show it didn't come off that way. There was no wounds on his body that was clearly visible except how he appeared wounded going over to his wife, though I'm sure arrows hit him how come they didn't have one still sticking from him? It seemed like he just emotionally gave up in the show and didn't try to do anything. Not fight in any sort of way, not even try to talk to Walder Frey like Cat did. I know he didn't in the books because Cat was pleading and all that, but it just came off to me like he didn't try to d anything show wise, which looks a little odd since in the books it showed how horrible the situation was. In the show the situation was obviously horrible as well, but it was like he just let it happen and clearly didn't care whereas in the books he couldn't do anything and had no time to do anything. Show Robb, as much as I like the actor who plays him, just comes off oblivious/uncaring/doesn't do anything/etc.

I would have at least liked if he finally acknowledged what he did was wrong. I know he apologized earlier, but we all know from previous episodes he didn't give a damn about the Freys. Maybe if he had finally shown that he knows what he did was wrong, and even tried to talk to Walder Frey that might have been better. I know it would have been a change but for me it could have helped make up a little the butchering of his arc and the things they left out of the RW.

[LilJonUmber]

Well, your opinion is wrong.

And look closer, it's not the bannermen that made it sad, it is absolutely Robb losing everything, but the bannermen and their loyalty are a character device Martin used to make us care more for Robb's failure. Their loyalty inspires our loyalty. But I think I already explained it in my last post. Pathos. Without love between characters, without loyalty, how are we supposed to feel it.

It was awful on screen. Horribly over violent, intended to shock with gore and violence, when that isn't the point.

If losing his cause (avenging his beloved father's death), his wife and unborn son, and his own life isn't considered "losing everything," then I don't know what is.

Like I said, you have every right to opine that the scene didn't live up to your expectations, but I think you're being overly critical.

Oh, and my "opinion can't be wrong, ser ... that's what makes it an opinion.

[Winter In My Heart]

If losing his cause (avenging his beloved father's death), his wife, and his unborn son isn't enough for you, then nothing short of a word for word adaptation of the entire scene would suffice for your like.

*** You may want to look up the definition of opinion when you get a chance ***

I don't think it was necessarily a horrible adaptation, but I think the stuff they left out would have had a much bigger impact. Like the missing northern bannermen. I know I probably would have cried more if they had some loyal bannermen though out the seasons with Robb and then they're all trying so hard to save him only to be chopped down. It got the shock and horror, but I don't feel it captured the love the northerners have for the Starks and how completely loyal most of the bannermen are. It was still pretty decent, especially by tv standards, but I think little things added like a few bannermen would have knocked it out of the park.

[LilJonUmber]

I don't think it was necessarily a horrible adaptation, but I think the stuff they left out would have had a much bigger impact. Like the missing northern bannermen. I know I probably would have cried more if they had some loyal bannermen though out the seasons with Robb and then they're all trying so hard to save him only to be chopped down. It got the shock and horror, but I don't feel it captured the love the northerners have for the Starks and how completely loyal most of the bannermen are. It was still pretty decent, especially by tv standards, but I think little things added like a few bannermen would have knocked it out of the park.

The point is you did cry...even without the inclusion of Robb's bannermen.

I too would've liked to see the Glovers, Mallisters, Umbers, etc. I'm merely refuting the notion that their omission negated the intended dramatic effect altogether. Knowing what to expect, and having read the RW chapter several times, it was still a punch in my gut.

And most seem to share those same sentiments.