[BOOK SPOILERS] Nitpick without repercussion?

[Winter In My Heart]

Yep, same. Most I know say they can't wait for "the dragon girl to fuck shit up!" Or they call her "Khaleesi," unable to recall her actual name. It's tough adapting so much source material, so I guess I'm guilty of giving D&D a longer leash than some. I'm in no way an apologist; I just think they catch too much flack at times.

In the end, the only way we'd know how badly they're screwing up is if we had a comparison. Since we never will, I just keep it in the back of my mind that GRRM believes these are the best guys for the job (...though I'm sure he doesn't agree with every decision).

I agree with you on that. There will likely never be a comparison so really all that can be done is try and enjoy what the show is. It's just such a shame when you know little things could have made a scene even greater but they didn't do the,. Or they add random stupid Ros things just to keep on showing how despicable Joffrey is when we already know. Or like keep on showing like ten minute Theon torture scenes. I'm definitely no pursuitist, I do like some changes. (Like I understand condensing the Tyrell sons into just Loras even if it is a bit annoying) or things like Tywin and Cersei's scene about Margaery lol and Tywin and Arya, but then there's just some changes I can not get myself to comprehend or even remotely like. (Like Talisa. God I've never hated a made up character as much as I hate her. And normally I don't care if they change a character from a book, like changing hair color/etc. but her, she's so badly written its pathetic.)

But yeah I try to hope that Martin besically trusts D&D, but I still can't help and question certain changes. I just try to basically enjoy each separately and not sweat to many of the changes unless its something I seriously don't understand or don't think was a very good change/very well written. All I'm gonna do is hope they don't completely go off course of whatever ending Martin has in mind lol.

[Roose Seal]

^Same here, I really don't mind small changes, but D&D have shown time and time again that they are not good at making stuff up. Ros? Talisa? The whole WHERE ARE MY DRAGONS mess?

I really don't understand how their main ambition when making this show was to film the Red Wedding and they completely botched up everything that led to it by turning the Robb storyline into a sappy love story and forgoing all the buildup that led to it. It just seems like they thought "oh this is going to be a shocking scene for sure" and forgot the main reason why the scene was so shocking in the books: it was because we cared about those characters, and not at all because it was super violent.

[Winter In My Heart]

^Same here, I really don't mind small changes, but D&D have shown time and time again that they are not good at making stuff up. Ros? Talisa? The whole WHERE ARE MY DRAGONS mess?

I really don't understand how their main ambition when making this show was to film the Red Wedding and they completely botched up everything that led to it by turning the Robb storyline into a sappy love story and forgoing all the buildup that led to it. It just seems like they thought "oh this is going to be a shocking scene for sure" and forgot the main reason why the scene was so shocking in the books: it was because we cared about those characters, and not at all because it was super violent.

:agree:

[SerMixalot]

^Same here, I really don't mind small changes, but D&D have shown time and time again that they are not good at making stuff up. Ros? Talisa? The whole WHERE ARE MY DRAGONS mess?

I really don't understand how their main ambition when making this show was to film the Red Wedding and they completely botched up everything that led to it by turning the Robb storyline into a sappy love story and forgoing all the buildup that led to it. It just seems like they thought "oh this is going to be a shocking scene for sure" and forgot the main reason why the scene was so shocking in the books: it was because we cared about those characters, and not at all because it was super violent.

The book Robb is such a tragic story. He is the embodiment of honor and that is why his bannermen follow him and why we as readers love him, because he is the hero. Intentionally making him not a POV character allows him to be idealized for us and we feel the love through those around him, whether it is his mother or his followers. In one moment of singular weakness he makes a tragic mistake. and all the tragedy arises from him trying to make that mistake right! That is why he is such a noble hero. His downfall arose from him trying to do the right thing when HE had made the mistake. From that moment everything goes wrong for him. One thing that always touched me was when he returned to Riverrun, he couldn't get angry with Cat for releasing the Kingslayer because he too had done something foolish. At that moment I had such empathy for he and Cat. Compare that to Show Robb where he simply acts petulantly and selfish. IIRC there is a scene in S2 where he lectures Cat about how honor means nothing and he will do what he wants cause everyone else does. That made him a repugnant character to me and showed to me that D&D either didn't get the tragedy or did not have the courage to present it faithfully to the novel. It would have taken boldness to represent such idealistic faith in honor because we are such a cynical society and they went with the easy clichéd love story.

[ladyinblack]

Way to not state your case one iota and resort to childish nonsense.

You wrote a book? Can I assume it's of the pop-up variety?

nothing like checking in on this thread after work & see this action

you both post good stuff, you know :fencing:

[Fat Mac]

^Same here, I really don't mind small changes, but D&D have shown time and time again that they are not good at making stuff up. Ros? Talisa? The whole WHERE ARE MY DRAGONS mess?

I dont have anything to quote but, didn't GRRM come up with and personally approve of Talisa?

[ladyinblack]

I thought afterwards, and this will be a little controversial because it isn't in the books but it would have been great that in their dying states Robb and Greywind made a real connection. As dying Greywind was starring at Arya it cuts to Robb inside and he says to himself "Arya" but kinda not understand why. That would have been pretty powerful and related directly to what Jojen says to Bran earlier in the ep that warging "is in his blood"...

I like that idea

[Winter In My Heart]

I dont have anything to quote but, didn't GRRM come up with and personally approve of Talisa?

Actually D&D changed the character and they were originally keeping the name Jeyne (but not the last name obviously) but she was changed so much he suggested changing the name because it wasn't a Volantis name. I honestly don't think he approves of the character. He mentioned once years ago his thought of spunky little nurses (who when we first meet her we and Robb don't know is a highborn) back talking kings.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

Way to not state your case one iota and resort to childish nonsense.

You wrote a book? Can I assume it's of the pop-up variety?

Now now, let's not make this personal.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

The book Robb is such a tragic story. He is the embodiment of honor and that is why his bannermen follow him and why we as readers love him, because he is the hero. Intentionally making him not a POV character allows him to be idealized for us and we feel the love through those around him, whether it is his mother or his followers. In one moment of singular weakness he makes a tragic mistake. and all the tragedy arises from him trying to make that mistake right! That is why he is such a noble hero. His downfall arose from him trying to do the right thing when HE had made the mistake. From that moment everything goes wrong for him. One thing that always touched me was when he returned to Riverrun, he couldn't get angry with Cat for releasing the Kingslayer because he too had done something foolish. At that moment I had such empathy for he and Cat. Compare that to Show Robb where he simply acts petulantly and selfish. IIRC there is a scene in S2 where he lectures Cat about how honor means nothing and he will do what he wants cause everyone else does. That made him a repugnant character to me and showed to me that D&D either didn't get the tragedy or did not have the courage to present it faithfully to the novel. It would have taken boldness to represent such idealistic faith in honor because we are such a cynical society and they went with the easy clichéd love story.

All true. It's sad the show couldn't follow this, it would have made for phenomenal TV.

[teemo]

Actually D&D changed the character and they were originally keeping the name Jeyne (but not the last name obviously) but she was changed so much he suggested changing the name because it wasn't a Volantis name. I honestly don't think he approves of the character. He mentioned once years ago his thought of spunky little nurses (who when we first meet her we and Robb don't know is a highborn) back talking kings.

What was it?

I asked George RR Martin at ConQuest a couple weeks ago what he thought of the change from Jeyne to Talisa. He said the above stuff that you mentioned (how the name Jeyne didn't make sense) and also said, "I guess they thought she was a better character."

[Winter In My Heart]

What was it?

I asked George RR Martin at ConQuest a couple weeks ago what he thought of the change from Jeyne to Talisa. He said the above stuff that you mentioned (how the name Jeyne didn't make sense) and also said, "I guess they thought she was a better character."

I don't think him thinking D&D thought she was a better character means he actually likes the change.

I can't remember the exact wording he said or where the heck I read it (I know I got the link from a post on this site though.) But basically it was something along the lines of how in all fantasy the lowborn girl back talks the prince and that what they don't realize is that the prince would throw that girl in the stocks or rape her (or basically some big consequence). I know it's not exactly the same since Talisa is highborn, but we don't know this at the time that she's back talking Robb. And I don't think even a highborn girl in that time would be stupid enough to act sassy towards a king.

That was basically it though, that he doesn't approve of the cliche 'girl acts spunky/modern and prince/royalty falls for her'.

[teemo]

I don't think him thinking D&D thought she was a better character means he actually likes the change.

I can't remember the exact wording he said or where the heck I read it (I know I got the link from a post on this site though.) But basically it was something along the lines of how in all fantasy the lowborn girl back talks the prince and that what they don't realize is that the prince would throw that girl in the stocks or rape her (or basically some big consequence). I know it's not exactly the same since Talisa is highborn, but we don't know this at the time that she's back talking Robb. And I don't think even a highborn girl in that time would be stupid enough to act sassy towards a king.

That was basically it though, that he doesn't approve of the cliche 'girl acts spunky/modern and prince/royalty falls for her'.

That's not what I meant at all. I was actually thinking more of the opposite. He said nothing positive whatsoever regarding Talisa's character, to me at least, he even sounded a bit perplexed or I don't know the word I'm looking for....something when he said, "I guess they thought she was a better character." And he saw me shake my head in disagreement (there was definitely some mumbling in the room when I asked that question and a couple groans) and he called me Daenerys. That was really neat :D

[Winter In My Heart]

That's not what I meant at all. I was actually thinking more of the opposite.

Aah my bad, I was just throwing that out there since you mentioned what he said.

[Follmann]

Just thinking on how downhill the King in the North's storyline adaptation went since this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQW9lB_KbRg

At least show-Robb was put out of his misery.

[Raksha the Demon]

Exactly.

This is part of the Stark charm, for lack of a better word, they inspire loyalty, people are willing to die to defend them, to go out of their way to save their daughters, put it all on the line to find their sons...this is what makes the tragedy so EPIC in its scope and what made the Red Wedding so devasting, because you saw all that loyalty play out and still result in death.

The TV version, while yes, shocking and surprising, was really about Robb and Talisa and Cat, and thats it, because there was not a SINGLE recognizable Northerner who died with them, not one.

I admitted it was a nit pick about Robb crawling toward his dead wife instead of trying to find a sword, but its soooo representative of D&Ds vision of the Red Wedding and what they did [butchery, yes I am using that word on purpose] with Robb's story. But, I still think it was dumb, however, it was totally in character for Show Robb, who had his "where is Winterfell again" wife sitting in on his war councils and who was more concerned with her butt than with the loss of 4000 Frey soldiers that it caused.

Rant over.

One moment I loved in the episode was Osha's quiet assertion, as justification for her becoming Rickon's de facto guardian and protector, that the Starks took her in and took care of her when they didn't have to do so. What other noble house of Westeros would have not only shown mercy to a woman who had tried to kidnap a son of the house, but eventually raised her from prisoner to trusted servant? The Boltons would have flayed Osha; the Lannisters would have set either the Hound or Gregor on her, the Greyjoys would have drowned her; and I doubt that Stannis Baratheon would have been very forgiving either. But Robb let Osha live, because she had not harmed Bran and she begged for mercy; and Robb was raised by Ned Stark, who believed that human life had some value and should be saved if possible. Ned was a Stark, Robb was a Stark, and though they made mistakes, and underestimated the venom of their supposed allies, they stood for something greater than the backstabbing, everyone-for-themselves ethos practiced by much of the so-called Westerosi nobility. That's why SmallJon Umber fought so hard to save Robb's life; and that's why a wildling bandit became the devoted protector of the littlest Stark...I wish we had seen more of the Stark bannermen, to give a sense of the enormity of the Stark tradition and legacy as well as the individual examples of heart-rending courage in the face of death.

[Batman]

JAIME Lannister sends his regards. JAIME LANNISTER!

[teemo]

I had a long talk with my sister today about her reaction, she was super sick so she only just got to watch it. She suddenly hated Robb's character weeks ago. Felt like he was a pompous, unlikable, poorly written character and hated the relationship between him and Talisa. She didn't feel much for their deaths at all, but said she was unexpected, although it wasn't as shocking as Ned's death. She just had no emotional investment in Robb/Talisa at all, although she definitely likes Cat. However, she was most saddened by Grey Winds death :D It's just sooooo frustrating to me that she hates Robb. God, I know she wouldn't hate Robb at all if she read the books.

I have been annoying her to read the books for yearrrrrssss and she finally read the first one and like the first two chapters of the second and it's driving me nuts. She wanted to know exactly how it played down in the books so I told her some of the most significant differences. She sounds a lot like me, actually :P She thought the Robb/Talisa thing at the last minute was a desperate attempt to get viewers to care and that their cheesiness didn't feel "very games of thronesy." When I told her about the differences, she was most annoyed that Cat didn't go mad and wasn't a fan of her blank stare.

I'm not recommending the show to people anymore. Only the books and to people who I'm positive actually like to read. I liked how overall how the RW played out, but the fact that I have friends (three) who despise Robb and thinks he's the biggest asshole in the world and then one who was apathetic towards him is so irritating. I personally don't know anyone who has only read the books who feels that poorly about Robb.

[Winter In My Heart]

He said nothing positive whatsoever regarding Talisa's character, to me at least, he even sounded a bit perplexed or I don't know the word I'm looking for....something when he said, "I guess they thought she was a better character." And he saw me shake my head in disagreement (there was definitely some mumbling in the room when I asked that question and a couple groans) and he called me Daenerys. That was really neat :D

Do people ask him that a lot? (I don't really watch comic con to much or go to the things where you can ask questions) but it seems kind of rude to grumble and moan about a question like that. I mean I'm sure there's quite a few book readers, myself included, that's wondered his thoughts about the change.

[protar]

Just thinking on how downhill the King in the North's storyline adaptation went since this:

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=JQW9lB_KbRg

At least show-Robb was put out of his misery.

That scene always gives me chills. Reading or watching.