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teemo

[BOOK SPOILERS] Nitpick without repercussion?

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I seriously can't believe Wymen was there...I rewatched it four times and didn't even notice until Pinkie Baelish said something. Why even cast him??? :dunno: Maybe a scene was cut...

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Jojen - his show character is the epitome of deus-ex-machina. Nice to have a buddy show up out of no where and know everything about everywhere...

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(copied from the general discussion thread, hope it fits here also)

From where I stand, the public reaction to Red Wedding doesn’t seem to be near the reaction to Ned’s death. Now, I don’t have “twitter” nor “facebook” account, so I might be wrong and those two may be going crazy at this very moment. Suffice to say, my overview of the rest of the internet is also very limited. But, the reaction in general does seem pretty quiet, like nothing extraordinary happened. On boards I checked, some posters do claim they're done with the show, but that looks like the only real clue that RW just happened on screens. And some of the first reviews of the episode (Allan Sepinwal’s, for example), only strengthened the impression that HBO’s RW is not the ground-shaking event many expected, certainly not on the level of Ned’s beheading.

Did anybody get a different, or maybe opposite impression?

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It was good for what it was, the TV version, a RW about Cat and Robb and Talisa.

I missed the sense of loyalty and fierceness you got in the books where you saw how hard the Northerners still fought despite being ambushed. Here, everybody goes down and the only person trying to save Robb is his mother.

Also, and no surprise coming from me, too much focus on Talisa and the young lovers angle, and over the top focus on the pregnancy angle, especially since the tragdy of the young couple in love dying wasn't even in the book at all, and good grief, how dumb was Show Robb that he's kissing his wife in front of Walder Frey?!

Also didn't like Greywind going down without taking anyone with him.

I also didn't see Manderley in the scene and I was looking for him because I knew he had been cast, LOL. So much for the North.

Cat laughing and the Ned loves my hair line wouldnt have worked in TV, it only worked in the book because we know what she's thinking.

I did like that they made her the only one who sees and sense any danger...since Show Robb was much too stupid to perceive same, he was too busy wishing he could look at his wife's butt all the time.

And I will now officially say that Oona Chaplin is not a good actress, that blank stare look is the same one she had in half her scenes.

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meh. I want to love this episode. I really do. It was an amazing episode, but the RW fell kinda short, and that just ruins the whole thing. Here are my nitpicks:

Like others are saying, it was getting kinda comical with the hit-and-run throat cuttings. Frey jumps into the frame, cuts a throat, jumps out. Bolton jumps into the frame, stabs Robb, jumps out. Cat screams and looks sad, then another Frey jumps in, cuts her throat, jumps out.

The awkward "Cat's getting suspicious" moments. Ruins the surprise.

The stabbing the pregnant chick in the belly. It was weird, and so over-the-top that it was almost comical.

Robb seemed to lack emotion, pain, fear, etc. Again, he just looked kinda sad. I mean, crossbow bolts in your chest, pregnant wife stabbed to death, bannermen slaughtered, and he just looked kinda sad.

Lack of Stark Bannermen

No Cat-goes-crazy-and-tears-her-face and her hair didn't get cut. Just a cheesy hit-and-run throat cut after an anti-climactic scream and anguished look.

weird timing in that whole scene. Lingering too long on some moments (Cat getting killed), rushing past others (Bolton stabbing Robb)

And then Arya......they needed that to be the last scene. It would be simple. Arya seeing all the chaos and commotion (strangely lacking in the show, like others have mentioned), and then just cut to black with the sound of her being hit and falling to the ground. The way they did it, there's no question about if she's dead or not.

I wonder how DD could watch this ep in the editing room and thought "Yes! This is the brilliant, it's the best we could have possibly done!". The throat slitting was sooo terribly done! No other weapon was used, hardly. A few crossbows, but no beheading, hardly any stabbings, no tables flipped over used for protection... no use of Grey Wind! The North did fight back! They still lost, but goodness, give them their last honor!

I didn't care for how they seemed to take yet another crap on Jon. They make it so Ygrette actually knows Jon is still loyal to the Watch, yet she loves him so much that she keeps his secret and remains in love with him anyway. To then have him just run off and abandon her like that when she was fighting her own kind in an effort to defend him was just crappy. It made Jon look like an ass that was just using her and had no actual feelings for her. In the books his leaving seemed more understandable, here it seemed like he abandoned her needlessly.

I don't remember how this went down in the books. Sad to say I rushed through Jon's story in the books.

These are MY complaints. There are a LOT of them. Let me begin by saying this is my least favorite episode of the entire series and I am utterly disappointed. Benioff and Weiss were the whole reason I started reading A Song of Ice and Fire to begin with. Game of Thrones inspired me to pick up a novel and finish it for the very first time in my nineteen years of life. That novel in turn inspired me to read four more after that. I trusted them completely with this. The Red Wedding was their ultimate goal in the series and they've said it from the start. I am still in disbelief that they would butcher it so badly but I digress. Onto business.

1. Robb's arrival at the Twins was an event in and of itself. His arrival and his death should have been spread out between two episodes as it was in the books with two successive Catelyn chapters. The entire event happened way too fast. For those who have not read the books, Greywind (Robb’s direwolf who has been largely missing from the show until randomly appearing in a KENNEL this episode) attacks some Freys in the rain as they greet the Starks to their castle. Robb, going through great pains to appease Walder Frey, decides to CHAIN his trusty direwolf outside (not in a damned dog kennel). Throughout their time at the Twins, Greywind howls in despair, sensing what is to come.

2. Blackfish & Jeyne (Talisa) are supposed to be safe at Riverrun; not at the Twins with Robb & Catelyn. Jeyne is still alive in the books, supposedly with Robb’s unborn child. An entire plot element currently hinges on whether or not that child is a boy. She should not have been killed off. I’m surprised they didn’t kill the Blackfish as well. How do they explain what he was even doing while his niece and great nephew (KING) were being slaughtered? I suppose he has magically escaped the castle and all the carnage outside to return to Riverrun, where he will most certainly be needed in the future for Jaime’s scenes.

3. Greywind dies AFTER Robb. This is extremely important (sentimentally-wise) as Robb’s real last words are “Greywind…” not “Mother…” It is to be assumed Robb wargs into his direwolf after he dies since this is the same moment Greywind viciously attacks nearby Freys who have not yet began their assault. Robb is betrayed, killed by his own man, wargs into his wolf, then dies all over again. It is part of his death and cutting that out of the show makes it considerably less tragic. To match, the death they gave Greywind here was so lacking in dramatic force or quality, you barely even cared that he was killed.

4. Another thing that makes Robb’s death less bleak is his childish disgruntlement towards Walder Frey throughout the episode. At this point in the books, Robb is genuinely sorry for what he did to his house and wants to make amends. He sustains every slight Walder throws at him without a flinch and handles himself extremely well at the Twins in the face of every petulant Frey. It’s hard to feel sorry for him here with those petty school boy heroics.

5. Most of the deaths in this episode were incredibly underwhelming compared to the deaths in A Storm of Swords. This was for many reasons, unfortunately. First of all, overly dramatic music was being played over everything when we should have been treated to nothing but the Rains of Castamere slowly digressing into the boom doom boom of the musicians’ drums. Secondly, Robb’s actor did an absolutely horrible job at displaying any sort of confusion, shock, fear, or despair. I heard he cried after he discovered how his character was to be killed but you never would have guessed he actually cared from his performance.

Catelyn’s actor was MORE than capable of carrying out some of the horrific things G.R.R. Martin described in his books but for whatever reason, Benioff and Weiss decided to stray for something far drabber. Going catatonic may sound like a proper reaction to the soul crushing sight of what you think is your only surviving child being killed in front of you but when Cat’s scream fades out and she just stands there motionless, it doesn’t deliver the jarring reaction her death deserves. It looks more as if she just accepts it and stops struggling. In the books, she scratches her face to ribbons as she screams bloody murder and the Freys waste no time in apprehending her by the hair. As her braid is yanked back, she thinks “No, not my hair! Ned loves my hair!” This would have been absolutely perfect had those been her last words. She literally goes mad with grief but viewers simply can’t grasp the extent of that grief without lines such as this.

Jeyne’s (Talisa’s) death, besides being totally uncanon, took away from the relationship between mother and son. It wasn’t supposed to be about Jeyne or Robb’s child. It was supposed to be about Catelyn and HER child. This is the relationship we had come to understand in-depth from Cat’s perspective since the first book. Jeyne’s family were also supposed to be suspected conspirators in the Red Wedding. Their daughter was not planned to be killed along with the Starks despite Jeyne’s alleged devotion to Robb. As I mentioned before, a huge plot element hinges on her and her baby. By the fifth book, Blackfish holds Riverrun against the Lannisters with Jeyne tight under guard. He defends her with his life. Why would he do this if not to protect an heir? Now what are they going to come up with when G.R.R. Martin reveals Jeyne is pregnant with the King in the North’s son?

Forget the main characters for a second; part of the horror of the Red Wedding was that so many people you were starting to like were all being slaughtered like farm animals. It is too much to expect to see minor characters such as Dacey Mormont and Smalljon Umber but surely their roles could have been replaced with existing characters in the show. Characters who, in the books, did not matter much. Lopping off the Greatjon’s head in place of his son’s would have been an excellent deviation as the Greatjon is supposed to be held captive then hardly ever mentioned again. Instead, we watch a bunch of bearded men who we’ve never even seen before being killed in humdrum fashions. No crossbow bolts through the mouth, no beheadings; none of that.

I doubt it would have had an impact anyway since the gore in this episode was completely unrealistic and tainted by Hollywood action movies. People do not instantly lose consciousness when their throat is cut then fall to the floor dead. When your esophagus is severed, you lose the ability to breathe through your mouth/nose and begin breathing out of a hole in your neck. This is largely impossible though since the wound bleeds profusely, clogging your esophagus with fluids. You essentially drown on your own blood in a panic, making all sorts of horrible snorting noises for up to three minutes. I’m not even sure G.R.R. Martin was aware of this before writing the Red Wedding but slitting throats was never described as one fell graze upon the neck. Catelyn SAWED through this person’s throat until they died. Stabbing a person in their heart is another matter but looks like Bolton missed the mark! Roose had a tiny dagger in place of a longsword and apparently decided to stab Robb in the lower part of his lung (causing instant death… ?).

While all this is happening inside the castle, the Stark host outside is supposed to be burning to death by the masses as a result of giant feast tents rigged to catch fire and collapse on top of them. Rather than depict the elaborate trap G.R.R. Martin conceived, it is simply implied all the Stark men outside are put to the sword. Good thing the viewers have no idea how many Stark men there are in comparison to Bolton men or else they would surely question the effectiveness of an open, armed conflict.

6. Roose’s performance here was a huge disappointment. I was setting my expectations high assuming this actor would be the one to do everything right. I was thoroughly enjoying his portrayal of the Leech Lord up until this point. He seemed so smug whereas in the books, he barely made an attempt to talk to anyone. He played his part perfectly while most of the Freys were a nervous wreck. But he was never cheeky about it. Here, he looks like he’s taking great pleasure in taunting the Starks as if he hates them. Roose is a man who plays for the winning team and takes no particular joy in betrayal. He just accepts that it’s practical and carries out his atrocities without guilt. In addition to screwing up his behavior, the actor got his body movements all wrong as well. Roose is supposed to glide in and out of the hall as confident and smooth as can be. Here, he darts around, ducking his head and lunging out of harm’s way. It’s just so unlike the Lord of the Dreadfort. But most importantly, he says to Robb just before he stabs him “the LANNISTERS send their regards.” I’m sorry, but WHY did you change that from “the Kingslayer sends his regards?” WHY do you think G.R.R. Martin set it up that way?! Cat is supposed to believe Jaime had a hand in her son’s demise from that statement. Cat FREED Jaime so she instantly thinks she’s killed her own son with her foolish actions. She’s supposed to believe that Jaime betrayed her later on in the series but of course viewers will never catch on to this.

7. Lastly, Sandor & Arya’s story was poorly done here. Arya was supposed to be desperate trying to get into the Twins despite all the bloodshed so that she could see her mother and brother once again. The Hound somehow managed to knock her out and carry her off unseen without a fret but in the books, it’s a fight for survival. Frey men attack them and Sandor has to kill a few with an axe before Arya makes a run for it. Just as she’s about to reach the castle, the Hound hits her atop the head. It would have been a much more emotional scene to see Arya kicking and screaming as Sandor tries to subdue her like it was in A Storm of Swords.

I was so hyped up for this moment ever since I read it in the books. I can’t tell you how immensely let down I am. This was meant to be the most significant event in the entire series and I do not feel they did it justice by any means. Viewers of the show will never know how much better it could have been; how much better it should have been. I’m not done with the series but I can definitely say now that I prefer G.R.R. Martin’s works over Benioff and Weiss’s any day. If they would just stick to the damned books instead of making their own changes all the time, I’d be happy. Cut what you need to but don’t add things that were never written down by the author. That’s rule No.1 of any adaption. I can only see this getting worse as the story progresses. Unless the producers get back on track and start doing things the way they should have done all along, I have no more hope left for Game of Thrones.

*Hugs you, and pats you on the back because I feel the EXACT SAME way* You took the words right out of my mouth.

Seriously though. For DD to go around saying this one chapter was the entire reason they made this series, they sure did pull down their pants and take a great shit on it. S1 was so brilliantly done, I'll never forget the magic they worked then. S2 was so very meh, but I said S3 is when they'd come back, times three! I just KNEW they would get this right... even with the whole Talisa change. But then they started showing less and less of Robb and Cat.. then they never showed any Stark bannermen (Greatjon, where are you??), Grey Wind only appeared for about 5 seconds this entire season, Robb was planning to take Casterly Rock (wtf).. they started doing things that made me go "uh oh" at the Red Wedding. And when they showed the preview, and I saw that it would be sharing screen time with so many other arcs, that was my last red flag.

This was the one thing I wanted them to get right, that all of us wanted them to get right.

I pity us readers, because we will never get that brilliance that we have been waiting for years for. I pity the Unsullied because even if they thought that nonsense was good, they will never know HOW good it could have been, HOW good it really was. I feel so cheated! I hated Cat's strange, silent death with another quick throat slit and that was just it. For people saying her death in the books was over the top, that was the entire reason she died! If she hadn't lost her mind and gone apeshit, she would still be alive! But her going crazy is why they killed her. And yes, "Ned loved my hair" was an internal monolgue, but she could have obviously opened her mouth and said it, duh. Michele Farily is such a talented actress, I just wish they would have used her more. I hope DD give an interview about how a lot of the book readers feel about this episode.

And like I said in a previous post, Dany is my favorite character, and I get normally get irritated when she isn't in an episode, but she did not belong in this one. It was such a Stark centered episode, and to throw in Yunkai completely threw it off balance for me. The time spent on her arc, completely deserved to be spent on the Red Wedding.

To make this post a little lighter, let's all take a moment of silence to imagine the Smalljon bitch slapping people with a mutton leg.

Thank you.

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My nitpicks:

  • I think that having poor musicians was a thing that they should have kept. It doesn't cost anything, and would have made the whole scene more rounded.
  • They should have insisted more in how the Stark bannermen were getting drunk.
  • Roose runing away from Catelyn was dumb.
  • Failure at transmiting the sense of chaos during the killings. I missed knocking down tables, Northmen entering at the last time seemengly saving the day,...
  • It was out of character to have Roose saying his final line to Robb with fury, instead of calmly murdering him with coldness.
  • Sandor hiting Arya came out of nowhere, since they weren't able to transmit that she was out of control. Maise was acting just dumbstruck, not crazy.
  • Grey Worm's "bo-staff" fighting style was cool, but completely inconsistent with his background as an infantry soldier.

Gregor's Nancy Boy,

I agree with most of your points, but there's a couple of instances where I think you are not being reasonable:

2. Blackfish & Jeyne (Talisa) are supposed to be safe at Riverrun; not at the Twins with Robb & Catelyn. Jeyne is still alive in the books, supposedly with Robb’s unborn child. An entire plot element currently hinges on whether or not that child is a boy.

Jeyne is not pregnant in the books. The fact that some fans maintain the crackpot theory that she is should not be considered at all by the showrunners. Since Talisa and Robb's child do not exist in the books, in this case killing them was the decision most faithful choice.

3. Greywind dies AFTER Robb. This is extremely important (sentimentally-wise) as Robb’s real last words are “Greywind…” not “Mother…” It is to be assumed Robb wargs into his direwolf after he dies since this is the same moment Greywind viciously attacks nearby Freys who have not yet began their assault. Robb is betrayed, killed by his own man, wargs into his wolf, then dies all over again. It is part of his death and cutting that out of the show makes it considerably less tragic. To match, the death they gave Greywind here was so lacking in dramatic force or quality, you barely even cared that he was killed.

It is not to be assumed that Grey Wind dies after Robb. It's assumed by you, and some others. But we just don't know. As with the previous case, i's not fair to criticize the show for contradicting your uncofirmed theory. My own interpretation of Robb's last words was that he intended to say "Grey Wind... had warned us".

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After her wail, Cat just stood there silently such a long time before her throat was slit - don't know what that was about. Disappointed that the words to Rains of Castamere weren't sung.

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Ygritte. She is a wildling, she should act the part.

Disappointed that the words to Rains of Castamere weren't sung.

Hm, they were played? I think this is also how it was in the books.

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The episode started quite strongly IMO and continued to be fairly strong, but it was still disappointing.

  • The writing was once again very weak in places.
  • The Arya/Hound scenes continue to be very disappointing.
  • Dany's scenes were literally just about Daario, Barristan and Jorah, and the rivalries between them... Hers is one of the few stories with a central female protagonist, so it's extremely disappointing that she was essentially reduced to a background character this episode.
  • Similarly, Jorah's dialogue to Barristan (repeating what Barristan had said in episode 5) felt a little too... obvious. D&D really need to learn subtlety.
  • The worst part: Barristan silently getting drunk. WTF??? They could have used that time to talk about Rhaegar, but no - they replaced it with Barristan getting drunk whilst protecting his "bright shining child queen".
  • The throat-slitting looked really cheap. Obviously there are limitations with television, but in that case they should have adapted to the problems.
  • At the end, I thought the massacre felt like a shock-moment, rather than how in the books it felt completely natural (like with Ned's death - it was shocking but felt natural). I can't help but feel that D&D read the Red Wedding and thought "WOW what a shocking twist!" and approached the adaptation of that scene with the idea of making it as shocking as possible.
  • Cat's death was very disappointing.
  • Arya running around the Twins felt so odd. Northerners were being massacred all around her, but there was no real sense of danger, urgency or desperation... just shock.
  • Queenscrown was a bit odd too... It never really felt like Jon was in danger, considering that the wildlings basically stood back as he killed Orell. And the way he killed Orell felt a little bit sadistic to me too.
  • Bran's lack of reaction to seeing Jon was a bit strange too.

Did anybody else notice that a WOMAN was killed by Catelyn, and a PREGNANT WOMAN was killed by Lame Lothar? MISOGYNY! TRIGGERING! CHARACTER ASSASSINATION! MALE GAZE! SEXISM!

I'm glad someone mentioned it. Once again D&D have resorted to unnecessary and gratuitous violence against women.

It certainly wasn't necessary to show repeated stabbings to Talisa's stomach. I think one would have been enough to get the point across.

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I REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY wanted Cat to claw her face and Ygritte to shoot Jon... WTH seriously! this was like the main things I wanted from this episode, that and some awesome Direwolf action (which we got very little of) *humph*

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I thought Walder was way over the top with the insults and provocations in the beginning with Talisa. Some barbs and thinly veiled insults were to be expected as in the book, without them Robb and Cat would've been suspicious, but he went too far.

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I thought Walder was way over the top with the insults and provocations in the beginning with Talisa. Some barbs and thinly veiled insults were to be expected as in the book, without them Robb and Cat would've been suspicious, but he went too far.

Yeah, and Robb even stepped forward and had to be held back by Catelyn. WTF? What was he going to do, hit Walder Frey and break the alliance again?

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Just realised that Roose Bolton did not show Robb and Cat Theon's skin from a flayed finger - thought they would have made the connection there, it was the perfect time. Not happy.

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The people nitpicking about the burning tents, look at the promo for next week

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2. Bran's "oh by the way, while I was a wolf I saw Jon" was silly, and poorly written. ... In my opinion, it should have been far more dramatic, and all that he cared about from the start of that scene. Not explaining his "worging."

I actually laughed out loud when he said it, it was such an afterthought for him "Oh, by the way, I saw Jon".

Definitely should've exhibited more excitement for finally seeing another family member, especially at such a random place. He just reacted like he remembered that he ran into Jon at the supermarket or something.

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"Oh by the way, I saw Jon.." such a poorly writte/delivered line.

I did laugh at "no more hodoring" though.

About the RW itself:

This should've been an entirely Robb focused episode (kind of like Blackwater focused entirely on King's Landing). Not nearly enough buildup.

The editing of the last couple scenes was weird too. The Rains of Castamere went on for a while and only Cat noticed? then cut to a rather long Arya scene then cut back to RW...

Talisa just sitting there looking dumb and doesn't move until she has a dagger in her belly.

Cut to Arya witnessing a pretty anti-climactic grey wind death scene...?

Then Robb standing there, Roose just swoops in and stabs him, it looked so silly.

Then Cat wails ... and nope, nothing, just stands there as well. Someone swoops in and slits her throat.

Overall, it was lacking in chaos, and characters going mad. It should've been one long uninterrupted 15 min scene of buildup, and then 2-3 minutes of complete chaos, ending with Cat's plea. and THEN cut back to Arya witnessing the chaos and end the episode on her getting hit on the head and "thud" cut to black.

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Ygritte not shooting Jon and Tormund going back to Styr ruined that whole interaction. Why they chose to combine Styr and Tormund, two characters on complete opposite ends of the spectrum, I will never understand.

The pacing of the Red Wedding felt a little rushed. D&D seemed to go for the "twist" aspect instead of the "dread" aspect. The lousy singers, the terrible food, the feeling that something was just "not right," all of that in the novels helped build up the anticipation without ruining the surprise.

And Roose Bolton's performance was WAY off from what I expected. I think the actor has done a fantastic job to this point, but when Cat notices he has mail armor on, he has this smug smile on his face, which is something I could not for the life of me understand. Roose never showed any emotion. And then, when he stabs Robb, he says his line with anger, instead of calm calculation. It just felt like the whole thing was rushed to me.

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I kind of didn't like the drive by throat slit with Catelyn. I'd have preferred her to fall to her knees, the camera pans in on her expressionless face, a knife goes to her throat and we hear Walder say "Kill her!". Her throat is slashed and she falls out of the camera view before the screen goes to black.

Also, I'm not really sure whether I liked Ygritte trying to fight along side Jon or not. Or the fact that he knocked her to the side and then left her. Could it have been that because he knew he couldn't take her with him, he didn't want her to burn her bridge with the wildlings?

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