[Book Spoilers] EP309 Discussion

[kitkat]

I still think Lady Stoneheart will be in the show. I think she's essentail to at least part of the story, and I think her upcoming scene with Jaime in TWOW is going to be huge. In the book, we know it's UnCat, but I believe (and I'll have to go back and re-read) only a few (Thoros and the now dead Beric) actually know who she really is. The rest just refer to her as Lady Stoneheart and ahve no clue. And as much as I'd like to see Michelle Fairley portray Lady Stoneheart, I think it's unnecessary...the actress will have so much makeup on and wear a cloak that covers much of her anyway. And as for lines, she's barely understandable as it is.

As for this episode, I thought it was done very well. My only problem was the reason why Blackfish was removed. I think the writers should ahve just left him at Riverrun and given him more dignity and likeability. Really? A hero like the Blackfish spends the whole Red Wedding peeing and doesn't make any attempt to save his King or family? I think the writers did not do his character justice, But other than that, I think the writers are doing an excellent job.

[Crazeejezza]

And this is significant why? Is that where they left Hot Pie? Or is it where Brienne runs into Gendry later? Can someone more familiar with the books let me know?

It's where Sandor and Arya kill 3 of Gregor's men, and Arya gets Needle back in the book.

[Cruella]

That was awesome.

When they stabbed Talissa, instead of "No, Talissa" I went "Yes, Talissa!" that was nice and gruesome. My second thought was that now there would be no added rape scenes or anything (which I was worried about after Walder's creepy speech), which, despite wanting RW to look as traumatic as possible I would NOT want to see.

Michelle Farley was MVP, she made the episode.

Walder Frey was awesome too, how greedily he was drinking from his cup! You coudl tell he was looking forward to it as much as I was.

And I liked how Roose Bolton, cold bastard, just looked back at Catelyn, all "Well, whatcha gonna do. And yes, we're killing y'all".

[Darryk]

I think they should have kept Grey Wind's death like it was in the books; we don't see it happen, and a character tells another character about it in the next episode.

No ways IMO, Grey Wind's death was brilliantly handled. Having Arya actually see it, and the shot of Grey Wind's eyes closing was heartbreaking.

My only problem was the lack of screentime Grey Wind actually had up to that moment.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Darryk

[Retorus]

I think the show suffers b/c the writers and D & D will not allow characters to have an internal monologue.

That wouldn't work at all.

[jmk51]

Lack of Bannermen... didn't change anything.

Lack of Direwolf action... didn't change anything.

Everyone has the right to nitpick incessantly, but you have to remember the long game, ie, telling the story. 10 episodes per year, cramming in a lot of material, while trying to stay as true as possible to the story while making it compelling to a wide group of audiences.

It costs nothing, literally, for GRRM to sit down and type out thousands of pages in a book. Its a considerable cost to take those words and put them on a screen.

[Cas Stark]

Lack of Bannermen... didn't change anything.

Lack of Direwolf action... didn't change anything.

Everyone has the right to nitpick incessantly, but you have to remember the long game, ie, telling the story. 10 episodes per year, cramming in a lot of material, while trying to stay as true as possible to the story while making it compelling to a wide group of audiences.

It costs nothing, literally, for GRRM to sit down and type out thousands of pages in a book. Its a considerable cost to take those words and put them on a screen.

It did.

It turned the Red Wedding into a Romeo and Juliet love story tragedy where the young couple in love are murdered, with the focus on the love story.

Lack of Northern bannermen erases the fact that the North is still loyal to the Starks, that multiple people died trying to save Robb Stark's life at the Red Wedding instead of having them all slaughered without much ability to fight back with the only person trying to save Robb being his mum. There would have been no cost issue to give 2 or 3 Northerners some screen time this season [instead of Shae or Ros or Pod] and then have them die heroically at the RW.

Lack of direwolf action is a shame because it robs Greywind of the heroic death he had and it reduces the link between the Starks and the wolves, but plot wise its not a big deal.

[teemo]

I think there was most likely a cut scene with Wymen Manderly in it because he was there, but so briefly that it's verrrry easy to miss him. I can't imagine they cast him just for that. Shame too, would have liked to have seen an interaction with at least one non-family/non-traitor bannerman.

Edited June 4, 2013 by atia-

[White Harbors Wrath]

Why do people think Roose is running from Cat? Isn't it glaringly obvious that the the charade is over and he's hauling ass to avoid becoming a pin cushion?

[Cas Stark]

I think there was most likely a cut scene with Wymen Manderly in it because he was there, but so briefly that it's verrrry easy to miss him. I can't imagine they cast him just for that. Shame too, would have liked to have seen an interaction with at least one non-family/non-traitor bannerman.

I did miss him, LOL. I was looking for him because I read on here he was cast, but never saw him during the show.

[madprofessah]

I still think Lady Stoneheart will be in the show. I think she's essentail to at least part of the story, and I think her upcoming scene with Jaime in TWOW is going to be huge. In the book, we know it's UnCat, but I believe (and I'll have to go back and re-read) only a few (Thoros and the now dead Beric) actually know who she really is. The rest just refer to her as Lady Stoneheart and ahve no clue. And as much as I'd like to see Michelle Fairley portray Lady Stoneheart, I think it's unnecessary...the actress will have so much makeup on and wear a cloak that covers much of her anyway. And as for lines, she's barely understandable as it is.

But if Michelle Fairley isn't playing Lady Stoneheart how will the Unsullied know that the character is actually Catelyn Stark? (Although I could see that as a very cool reveal sometime in Season 4 with a guest appearance by Fairley.) I think it is imperative that Lady Stoneheart be part of the show, which I think they could improve on the books' treatment of her. One of the reasons I kept on reading the books after the devastating blow of the Red Wedding was knowing that Catelyn was still around in some form.

I think there are a lot of readers (and now, many MANY more show watchers) who are continuing with the story in the hopes of seeing just how the Starks are avenged or at the very least how the Lannisters (and now the Freys) get their comeuppance. From the books we know that some bad things have happened to the Lannisters (Jaime's hand, Purple Wedding, Tyrion's revenge, Cersei's trials) but none of those have been due to actions by Starks or their bannermen. And none of them directly in response to the Red Wedding. (I have only read the books once so I may have missed something in AFOC or ADWD.)

I know that ASOIAF is too complex to have "good guys" and "bad guys" but for me my favorite characters are Jon Snow and Arya because if their connections to the Starks, Bran (because his abilities are cool!) and Tyrion because he's the smartest character. Dany used to be #1 on the list but after ADWD she's probably #5 on my list. It's interesting to see how D&D are going to depict these characters and whether (or how much) they are going to alter the central DNA or themes of the story.

They could probably still maintain the main ideas of GRRM's version of ASOIAF without Lady Stoneheart, but it would be a significant diminution of the emotional power of the series as a whole, in my mind.

Edited June 4, 2013 by madprofessah

[teemo]

Why do people think Roose is running from Cat? Isn't it glaringly obvious that the the charade is over and he's hauling ass to avoid becoming a pin cushion?

The directing should be more clear since enough people are thinking like that. It might be super obvious to lots of viewers, but with the amount of people mis-watching it I'm putting the blame on the show.

I did miss him, LOL. I was looking for him because I read on here he was cast, but never saw him during the show.

Like another poster here said, if you blink you'll miss him :)

Edited June 4, 2013 by atia-

[Hangover of the Morning]

I thought the RW was masterfully done. I have a few nipticks and few things that I wished they have done differently but I am more and more realizing that they are completely irrelevant since the scene captured the atmosphere from the book almost exactly.

It happens to me often that I think that the scene could have been better if they said or did this or that but I think I am probably just fooling myself. After all the writers/directors do many takes of every scene and make different variations before they decide on the final product. There is a good chance that they actually tried the scene with "Rains" playing the whole time or with the drum or with silence or with Roose stabbing Robb from behind or with some extra lines from the book etc. but it did not work that well or destroyed the atmosphere so they didn't go for it.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Hangover of the Morning

[mynameisJamie]

There would have been no cost issue to give 2 or 3 Northerners some screen time this season [instead of Shae or Ros or Pod] and then have them die heroically at the RW.

Lack of direwolf action is a shame because it robs Greywind of the heroic death he had and it reduces the link between the Starks and the wolves

I agree, the fact that this is the most memorable scene in all of the ASOIAF series - it slightly annoys me when I think of all the pointless and boring scenes with certain characters.

All it would take is a few actors to play young lords who are seen 2-3 times through out the season/cgi money spent on greywind actually being seen with Robb 'the young wolf' Stark to make the scene better.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Jamie Stark

[Janicia]

Minor quibble:

In the book it felt like the Northeners at least put up a little fight and that there was a fair amount of chaos in the hall. In the show, it felt more like watching the bodies pile up at the end of Hamlet. I guess mostly I missed the big drunk Umber flipping tables and proving hard to subdue.

Catelyn, Talisa, and Robb were lovely – just a shame that they didn’t have more memorable entourage.

[MachoGrande]

The taking of Yunkai with Jorah and friends slaughtering tons of enemy attackers felt so out of place - it felt as though I was watching Spartacus. Not that Spartacus is bad but it has a totally different grasp on fighting than GoT. Martin especially goes a great way to stress how difficult it is to fight agains multiple opponents at once, but I guess the series has to be made more "cinematic". Also the jump from "oh shit we're surrounded" to "the city is yours" was abrupt and confusing as hell. The second wave of reinforcements was totally unnecessary, but if they insisted on it, they should have kept it going to show Jorah opening the gate while Grey Worm and Daario were holding them off or something.

Also did someone else notice this fundamental change in Robbs character? In the TV series, Robb dies not because he is so similar to Ned, but for the exact opposite: Ned Stark would never have married "for love" if it meant to break his vows. Thus, people always bringing up the "Robb was just too honorauble to survive" in reviews doesn't feel right when it was actually NOT being honourable that led to his death.

Whereas in the books, he had deflowered and thus dishonored a noble lady and therefore had to marry her, chosing Jeyne's reputation and honor over his own (so to speak) because he was the one responsible for her situation. Of course, there are other possible interpretations of the books but this is the most prominent one and the most agreed one.

Edited June 4, 2013 by MachoGrande

[~DarkHorse~]

Posted this somewhere else but just wanted to repeat it here, without going to the effort of writing it out again. I'm lazy.

The most heartbreaking part of the episode was the silent moment between Robb and Cat, that could have lasted a lifetime in their minds, as he mumbles "mother", he became her little boy again, his manly leader facade had fallen away, and we saw how young he really was, right up until Roose stabbed him.

:agree: That and her pleading with him to leave, knowing its hopeless. :crying:

[MachoGrande]

The directing should be more clear since enough people are thinking like that. It might be super obvious to lots of viewers, but with the amount of people mis-watching it I'm putting the blame on the show.

I don't think the issue is not Roose "running off" per se, but more the way he did it. Roose Bolton does not simply flee like a frightened child or some random coward, he's far too awsome for that xD And yes, the directing wasn't really splendind, since the first impression you get when you watch the scene is that Roose is running because he's been hit by Cat and is afraid to actually get tangled up in the fighting.

[Weeping Sore]

The taking of Yunkai with Jorah and friends slaughtering tons of enemy attackers felt so out of place - it felt as though I was watching Spartacus. Not that Spartacus is bad but it has a totally different grasp on fighting than GoT. Martin especially goes a great way to stress how difficult it is to fight agains multiple opponents at once, but I guess the series has to be made more "cinematic". Also the jump from "oh shit we're surrounded" to "the city is yours" was abrupt and confusing as hell. The second wave of reinforcements was totally unnecessary, but if they insisted on it, they should have kept it going to show Jorah opening the gate while Grey Worm and Daario were holding them off or something.

Found the fight scene super-fun, but out of place. I agree the conclusion was awkward, really the first false notes of Dany's S3 thread. I wish this could have been a Stark/Snow-only episode, but they may have wanted to avoid telegraphing the ending with a little, "see, there's other stuff going on, too, the wedding is just a sideshow..."

[Maizel]

I get why Roose ran away. After Catelyn shouts 'Robb' the gig is up, and Roose, is standing right next to one of the primary targets, with alot of Frey cronies about to rain down bolts. I would have gotten clear as well until the dirty work was mostly done.

As for Lady Stoneheart, I think she will be in, otherwise the Beric revival would have been a loose end.

I am doubting whether Fairley will play as Ladt Stoneheart though, or whether they;ll go with some cheaper choice. I'm sure Uncat gives them a alittle leeway in make-up, veils whatever.