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[Book Spoilers] EP309 Discussion


Ran
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The fact they made her pregnant in the first place feels like they tried to overshadow the mother/son dynamic that was the red wedding. Don't get me wrong i don't hate the scene where he goes to his dead wife like a couple on here said they disliked. I'm saying in general, it felt like they added the pregnancy to have the husband/wife losses overshadow the true importance which is Cat loosing all of her kids/family and the seeming Stark downfall.

I think it wasn't meant to overshadow Cat, but to add to it. Remember right before everything goes down, Robb tell Talisa that Cat is starting to like her, ie excepting her as her daughter in law. More evidence to that is the smile when Cat see Robb and Talissa kissing after Talisa say she wants to name the baby Ned. That's how I saw it anyway, but I can see where you are coming from. I just think the lil time they gave to Talisa in this episode versus Cat, especially at the end once the massacre started makes it hard to say Talisa overshadowed Cat.

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I think it wasn't meant to overshadow Cat, but to add to it. Remember right before everything goes down, Robb tell Talisa that Cat is starting to like her, ie excepting her as her daughter in law. More evidence to that is the smile when Cat see Robb and Talissa kissing after Talisa say she wants to name the baby Ned. That's how I saw it anyway, but I can see where you are coming from. I just think the lil time they gave to Talisa in this episode versus Cat, especially at the end once the massacre started makes it hard to say Talisa overshadowed Cat.

Personally I'd say the time focused on her was well deserved. It seemed like Talisa got way to much screen time up to that point compared to Cat. And I see what your saying but it felt like the baby gushing and banter (like telling Robb not to kiss her and then they kiss minutes later anyway was very silly and made them look stupid IMO, but that's beside the point) it felt like that was just done to pull emotional strings and get people who might not have liked the characters/or one of the characters to like them. Honestly, when they're talking about the baby can you tell me it was a surprise she said 'let's name him Ned'. Just a cheap way to get people to feel more sorry for her and Robb, but I can see what your saying about the Cat starting to finally accept her part.

I'm almost willing to bet if Talisa didn't die LS would blame her for the reason of her and Robb's death. (Am I wrong to think that? Him marrying her was the reason everything happened. Or has she accepted her so much she'd be relieved little Stark lived?)

Edited by Winter In My Heart
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I'm almost willing to bet if Talisa didn't die LS would blame her for the reason of her and Robb's death. (Am I wrong to think that? Him marrying her was the reason everything happened. Or has she accepted her so much she'd be relieved little Stark lived?)

I agree with pretty much everything you say. Talissa being pregnant, and wanting to call the baby Ned was definitely in there to get an emotional response from the audience. As for your question, Nah I don't think you are wrong to think that. I do think Talisa would be top 5 on LS' kill list. My guess is LS would assume Talisa surviving meant she was part of the RW. Which let's be honest would probably be the only way Talisa would have survived it.

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I agree with pretty much everything you say. Talissa being pregnant, and wanting to call the baby Ned was definitely in there to get an emotional response from the audience. As for your question, Nah I don't think you are wrong to think that. I do think Talisa would be top 5 on LS' kill list. My guess is LS would assume Talisa surviving meant she was part of the RW. Which let's be honest would probably be the only way Talisa would have survived it.

Very true. It just makes me wonder what would have happened if she lived and they keep the LS storyline. I guess being to far gone with revenge would make her not care about killing 'little Ned'. I think that would be a nice poetic way to really have gotten rid of Talisa if she was in fact a spy like so many want to believe. (Though I didn't really think so. I was just going for red herring/badly written character.)

Just to try and get back on topic a little, I really loved Roslin's unveiling. The way Edmure reacted to her being pretty, and the look exchange between Walder and Robb was great.

I think my favorite scene was probably the apology scene. Just because it was so funny what Walder said in naming his daughters and granddaughters. And then his sly way of insulting Talisa was great. I admit though I wish he would have straight up insulted her, instead of saying 'oh so pretty', because it would have been great to see an actual facial expression from Oona than the blank one. But Robb getting angry and stepping forward still made up for that. Ooh and Frey women making flirty eyes at Blackfish, that had to be one of my favorites.

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Okay, Catelyn had every bit as much to do with Robbs downfall as Talisa did.

Catelyn tore the army apart with her release of Jaime Lannister. Karstark turned to the other Lannister prisoners because The Kingslayer could not be punished for the killing of his sons, so he got his cock-eyed revenge as he could. He was emboldened by the lack of stern punishment of Cat for her treason.

Cat's betrayal also drove Robb away from her as a trusted advisor. Which Talisa showed she could be.

If Catelyn doesn't free Jaime, Robb doesn't break his vow to the Freys. If the army doesn't lose the Karstarks, Bolton doesn't turn cloak.

Catelyn destroyed Robb and his army.

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Okay, Catelyn had every bit as much to do with Robbs downfall as Talisa did.

Catelyn tore the army apart with her release of Jaime Lannister. Karstark turned to the other Lannister prisoners because The Kingslayer could not be punished for the killing of his sons, so he got his cock-eyed revenge as he could. He was emboldened by the lack of stern punishment of Cat for her treason.

Cat's betrayal also drove Robb away from her as a trusted advisor. Which Talisa showed she could be.

If Catelyn doesn't free Jaime, Robb doesn't break his vow to the Freys. If the army doesn't lose the Karstarks, Bolton doesn't turn cloak.

Catelyn destroyed Robb and his army.

Causally she's possibly responsible. Not morally though. Robb is a grown-up,he chose to be illogical and selectively ignore her advice in a situation where he knew that she was damn well right.

I think my favorite scene was probably the apology scene. Just because it was so funny what Walder said in naming his daughters and granddaughters. And then his sly way of insulting Talisa was great. I admit though I wish he would have straight up insulted her, instead of saying 'oh so pretty', because it would have been great to see an actual facial expression from Oona than the blank one. But Robb getting angry and stepping forward still made up for that. Ooh and Frey women making flirty eyes at Blackfish, that had to be one of my favorites.

He doesn't insult Talisa because he doesn't care about Talisa. He would much rather insult Robb, the person he really has a problem with. Well, he kinda does insult Talisa by reducing her to a pretty body but it's more to fuck with Robb.

Oh she's quite the trooper. Her last act was to murder an innocent girl.

Slightly disturbing how a few reaction videos have people actively calling for her to kill that poor woman.
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That's half the reason I try not to discuss the very few changes I actually hate. Because I know they're never ending battles and ultimately people like what they like, but then I come here and I just cave in because of seeing those changes held in such high regard compared to the books when most everyone knows Martin most likely doesn't care for the certain ones either lol.

TBH, who cares what he thinks? He sold his right to complain. He's the one person who could have prevented all those changes people hate. He took the money.

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He doesn't insult Talisa because he doesn't care about Talisa. He would much rather insult Robb, the person he really has a problem with. Well, he kinda does insult Talisa by reducing her to a pretty body but it's more to fuck with Robb.

Well exactly does she have that's more than a 'pretty' body? She has shown multiple times that she's very dim witted so its not intelligence lol.

But back on point this is Walder Frey. He could have easily insulted them both, but it was still good for what it was.

Edited by Winter In My Heart
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Okay, Catelyn had every bit as much to do with Robbs downfall as Talisa did.

Catelyn tore the army apart with her release of Jaime Lannister. Karstark turned to the other Lannister prisoners because The Kingslayer could not be punished for the killing of his sons, so he got his cock-eyed revenge as he could. He was emboldened by the lack of stern punishment of Cat for her treason.

Cat's betrayal also drove Robb away from her as a trusted advisor. Which Talisa showed she could be.

If Catelyn doesn't free Jaime, Robb doesn't break his vow to the Freys. If the army doesn't lose the Karstarks, Bolton doesn't turn cloak.

Catelyn destroyed Robb and his army.

You gotta take it easy man, I get how Catelyn was responsible for most of his downfall, but give her some credit. She warned Robb not to break his vow and marry another chick, he didnt listen. She told Robb not to trust a Greyjoy, he didnt listen and Winterfell payed the iron price, She told Robb to trust Greywinds insticts, he didnt listen and look what happened. In the end Robb really was responsible for his own downfall.

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Oh she's quite the trooper. Her last act was to murder an innocent girl.

UnCat FTW.

They are really passing up an opportunity here if they skip UnCat. Just imagine the look on Michelle Fairley's face as she points the accusing finger at her pFrey. It would be like watching The Ring.

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UnCat FTW.

They are really passing up an opportunity here if they skip UnCat. Just imagine the look on Michelle Fairley's face as she points the accusing finger at her pFrey. It would be like watching The Ring.

I am not a fan of the undead angle (because it makes death less significant), but I agree that LS will show up in the finale.

You have to give the fans something positive after the Red Wedding trauma.

Edited by ExBruinsFan
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You gotta take it easy man, I get how Catelyn was responsible for most of his downfall, but give her some credit. She warned Robb not to break his vow and marry another chick, he didnt listen. She told Robb not to trust a Greyjoy, he didnt listen and Winterfell payed the iron price, She told Robb to trust Greywinds insticts, he didnt listen and look what happened. In the end Robb really was responsible for his own downfall.

I give her credit for being right about Theon (though that was bad writing by GRRM, like the Karstark betrayal).

However, she should have realized that freeing Jaime would make Robb not trust her anymore.

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But back on point, I still feel Michele absolutely dominated that scene despite the writers best attempts to focus solely on the poor doomed couple that were going to have a baby.

If you perceived Michelle as having "absolutely dominated" that scene, then isn't it quite likely that's exactly what the writers and director intended? Unless you're going to argue that they didn't know what they'd filmed.

If the writers had made their "best attempts to focus solely on the poor doomed couple", as you claim, then Michelle couldn't have dominated that last scene because she wouldn't have had the lines. In fact, from the moment the first bolt was fired, the writers gave Talisa no lines at all. Had they truly wanted Michelle to be in the background, they'd have had her shot first, given her no lines, and then had the rest of the scene taken up by Talisa and Robb saying their last words to each other. But that's not how it was written.

When a pregnant woman gets stabbed in the stomach instead of just stabbed in the heart or have her throat cut, and then they focus on Robb touching the belly as soon as he is able to stand, I'm sorry but it felt like they were trying to overshadow Cat.

The point of stabbing Talisa in the womb wasn't just the shock of the physical attack -- it was to kill Robb's heir. The message was "we are wiping out your family". And while it is true that the focus was on Robb and Talisa at that particular moment in the scene, the entire rest of the scene was written around Catelyn, and they deliberately made her the enduring, last image of the entire episode. The idea that Fairley somehow shone in spite of how the scene was written ignores the reality that she was given all the lines, and the most screen-time.

That was really the first time in the season that it was Cat's POV.

I'd say it was certainly Cat's POV when she was standing at the window in Riverrun talking to her uncle about waiting for Hoster Tully to come home, and then breaking down because Bran and Rickon were gone. And then again when she was knitting and talking about Jon.

Talisa was a plot device, an appendage to Robb's character. She didn't have a single scene, in any episode, that didn't involve Robb, except the one with Catelyn knitting. Catelyn, on the other hand, had tons of scenes with all sorts of different characters.

Edited by Former Lord of Winterfell
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