[Book Spoilers] EP309 Discussion

[Weeping Sore]

I really hope so. I hate the speculation of UnTalisa. It's so much more powerful a mother wanting revenge for her children than just one who lost a husband and child that wasn't even born. Cat is so much closer to the stark story than a widow and Jaime/Breenie isn't going to recognize her unless they stereotype and go 'oh I think she's the foreigner that married Robb' lol. But who knows, with some of the things D&D do, I could almost see that.

Forget unTalisa. I want unNedfetus. He could have a little cloak, and Thoros could keep him in his pocket. Maybe his commands could be so quiet that only Thoros could hear them.

Edited June 7, 2013 by Weeping lobster

[Winter In My Heart]

I agree with you that Talisa didn't have a lot of charisma, or at least wasn't written as such seeing how the actress had it a few short instances. But to say that her storyline is worse, especially for television, than the original is a bit of a short-sighted book purism in my opinion. Not everything GRRM writes is gospel. In fact, he isn't even all the great of a writer. His one trick pony is that he is willing to kill off his/your favorite characters at will. As you can see from the last two books, that isn't enough to carry an entire series. I really hope he has a few more tricks up his sleeve for the final two books.

Personally I would have changed the arc a little bit and just made her a bannermen from a house that wasn't loyal to the Lannisters.

But seeing as Oona mostly had blank faces in almost every scene, I'm going to have to disagree it was solely the writing that was short sighted. I'm not saying she's a horrible actress, just not a very good one and especially not compared to the others in the show.

Wow so clearly you don't like the books if your going to insult them that much. And to call me a book purist for not liking ONE out of the many changes in the show, that's very short minded and not insightful at all. I wasn't saying the book version was so much better, but what the writers did do with the change in story is probably one of the most butchered ones in the show. More so than Dany and Jon because they've actually been doing well this season. Talisa doesn't exactly have a memorable scene except her brutal death. There's nothing very captivating about her other than some guys who watch it swoon over her and let that override the fact she really isn't very interesting and helped in making Robb and Catelyn look worse than their book counterparts.

[Wunhopkuendo]

So, you're not a fan of the books and only the HBO show satisfies you? Is that right? Since you think Jeyne's subplot is silly, you probably wasn't impressed with the Red Wedding in the novels. If a plot starts with something that silly, it's hard to buy it, I guess. If I thought Robb falling for Jeyne silly, I certainly would've be taken out of the story that's built around that particular development. So, we can conclude that, when reading, you were probably relived when RW came, because you didn't have to suffer through that storyline anymore. Good for you.

I'll even go further and take your post as a personal compliment on my account. I mean, here's GRRM, struggling to make you care for Robb and his love interest, wasting hundreds of pages in the task, and still failing completely. He didn't fool you for a second, it seems. On the other hand, I managed to provoke your emotional response with no more than few posts. Wow. Thanks.

Yeah, you didn't put any words in my mouth there. Of course I was fooled at the RW, and threw my book against the wall like everyone else did. It was the afterward of the events where it came about as a silly plot line. In the book, it comes together a little better than it would have for television though. In the show, it looks like Tywin puts together a brilliant betrayal since he can't beat Robb on the field of battle, hence the change of Lannisters send their regards. Changing it to look like he is omniscient enough to know that Robb will fall hook line and sinker for his convoluted plot is really contrived. But that's just my opinion. Far from an emotional response directed at you over such wittiness in your "no more than a few posts."

[Winter In My Heart]

Forget unTalisa. I want unNedfetus. He could have a little cloak, and Thoros could keep him in his pocket. Maybe his commands could be so quiet that only Thoros could hear them.

This made my day lol. A nice relief from all this annoying back and forth of a character who was just used as a plot device just like Jeyne in the books.

[PatrickStormborn]

You don't think the "ahahaha you didn't know that your wife's mom was in on the betrayal the whole time! Tywin played you perfectly knowing you would fall in love with the first pretty face you saw that was around to tend to your wounds, would have sex with her, would marry her to preserve her honour, and would fall prey to a butt hurt Walder Frey!" And yet somehow Tywin still gets out maneuvered in each battle against Robb?

Yeah that would have come off really well. No amount of charisma could fix that convoluted storyline.

But... that's not what happened. Robb and Jeyne fell in love (or, for the more cynical, had sex), so Sybell used it to make sure the Westerlings would not end up like the Reynes of Castamere. Tywin did not orchestrate it, nor does he ever claim to have done so; he just reacted to Robb's bad decision.

[Wunhopkuendo]

Personally I would have changed the arc a little bit and just made her a bannermen from a house that wasn't loyal to the Lannisters.

But seeing as Oona mostly had blank faces in almost every scene, I'm going to have to disagree it was solely the writing that was short sighted. I'm not saying she's a horrible actress, just not a very good one and especially not compared to the others in the show.

Wow so clearly you don't like the books if your going to insult them that much. And to call me a book purist for not liking ONE out of the many changes in the show, that's very short minded and not insightful at all. I wasn't saying the book version was so much better, but what the writers did do with the change in story is probably one of the most butchered ones in the show. More so than Dany and Jon because they've actually been doing well this season. Talisa doesn't exactly have a memorable scene except her brutal death. There's nothing very captivating about her other than some guys who watch it swoon over her and let that override the fact she really isn't very interesting and helped in making Robb and Catelyn look worse than their book counterparts.

I'm not singling you out as a book purists. If you are or aren't one, good for you either way. It's my opinion that the hatred for Talisa comes most vehemently from book purists with an axe to grind. I mean the show is far from perfect and I, like you, started to get bored in season two with the complete flatness of Dany and Jon (although in all fairness I felt this way with their book counterparts at the time). There is actually quite a bit of changes to complain about, if one were so inclined. But bitching about the switch to Talisa, someone that Robb falls in love with because of the wit/charm/beauty he sees in her, from Jeyne, a mere plot device to get Robb to the RW, is where I see the short-sightedness.

And on Oona, maybe I give her acting a pass due to that really fine ass. I am still a red blooded man after all.

[King of the Road]

Forget unTalisa. I want unNedfetus. He could have a little cloak, and Thoros could keep him in his pocket. Maybe his commands could be so quiet that only Thoros could hear them.

http://static.tumblr.com/cczbgy6/13Mm1y427/tumblr_m1te0wb5nn1rr2hg7o2_250.gif

Brilliant!

[Wunhopkuendo]

But... that's not what happened. Robb and Jeyne fell in love (or, for the more cynical, had sex), so Sybell used it to make sure the Westerlings would not end up like the Reynes of Castamere. Tywin did not orchestrate it, nor does he ever claim to have done so; he just reacted to Robb's bad decision.

We know that, but no matter how well they were to try to tell that to the audience, it would not have come off that way. Look at all the "Talisa is a spy" theories abound this season. Rather than a gift that fell in Tywin's lap, the whole ordeal would appear as if Tywin planned it all.

[Winter In My Heart]

I'm not singling you out as a book purists. If you are or aren't one, good for you either way. It's my opinion that the hatred for Talisa comes most vehemently from book purists with an axe to grind. I mean the show is far from perfect and I, like you, started to get bored in season two with the complete flatness of Dany and Jon (although in all fairness I felt this way with their book counterparts at the time). There is actually quite a bit of changes to complain about, if one were so inclined. But bitching about the switch to Talisa, someone that Robb falls in love with because of the wit/charm/beauty he sees in her, from Jeyne, a mere plot device to get Robb to the RW, is where I see the short-sightedness.

And on Oona, maybe I give her acting a pass due to that really fine ass. I am still a red blooded man after all.

Talisa isn't much more than Jeyne as far as plot device goes. Heck I'd say Jeyne is more important because at least she survived and Robb didn't stupidly bring her to the wedding like was done in the show. I don't understand how 'ooh back sass that automatically makes her more than a plot device' when she's still basically just that. Jeyne could have been fleshed out but people just choose to ignore that and say how flat she was when it actually takes more work to create a new character than to tweak and flesh out an existing one IMO. Plus honestly Oona and Madden had absolutely no chemistry IMO. Only the banter before their deaths even looked even remotely convincing to me. So I don't see them as in love, or that she's very intelligent (there's a few scenes that show her as a complete moron). I also don't see the as two people that would be attracted to each other. (Yes I know that's more perceived on their looks and I can't see them liking one another but still, lack of chemistry didn't help my thinking in that.)

See. I'm a girl and also the fact I take classes and am looking to act, that's why I pay more attention than to just 'ooh hot (insert name here) is in the screen.' It seems silly people give her a pass just because they think she's attractive. (I'm not in that group though seeing as I think other actresses in the show are prettier in comparison.) It's really shallow to base someone's acting ability off their looks.

Edited June 7, 2013 by Winter In My Heart

[Miodrag]

Maybe I’m wrong, but this hole notion that Robb’s infatuation with Jeyne isn’t plausible probably started nearly two years ago, soon after D&D announced they’re going to expand Robb’s arc in Season 2. At first, many fans reacted like: “Looking forward to see Robb’s campaign in the West and his romance with Jeyne”. And, when it became known that there are going to be some substantial changes in that subplot, all hell broke loose – suddenly, there were loads of fans claiming Jeyne character was contrived and it’s so good that HBO’s going to fix that.

Even if you think Jeyne’s subplot was bad, I honestly can’t see how did HBO fix it for you, by omitting the crucial, most important element: Robb’s grief over his kid brothers, whose death he greatly contributed to by sending Theon to Pyke. In my eyes, it had nothing to do with age, as some claim. Men of all ages fall for wrong women all the time. I bet all those smart-asses who criticize Robb/GRRM, would never managed to resist much weaker temptation, let alone something like Robb’s. And it has nothing to do with Tywin. I’m pretty sure Tywin nor Jeyne’s mother didn’t orchestrate Robb’s infatuation with Jeyne. They only used it to no ends afterwards, but how could they incept it? How could’ve Tywin even communicate with Westerlings, once The Crag was conquered by the Northerners?

But, all that aside, I really don’t understand people refusing to buy Jeyne, and then buying the Red Wedding. If Jeyne’s a plothole, than so is RW. Robb’s marriage to Jeyne is the core reason for RW; other factors fell in nicely, but in the core of it all is Robb falling for Jeyne (and Jeyne for him, by the way); without it, there is no RW. There can be RW without Tywin’s involvement, or without Jeyne’s mother, but not without Robb falling in love with a girl he wasn’t betrothed to, i.e. Jeyne. If I didn’t find it plausible, the RW would’ve never hit me so hard. All the time I’d be suspicious of everything that came out of that contrivance. Not suspicious in the way an ASOIAF reader is meant to be (foreshadowing and everything), but in the way all the authors dread: everything that springs out of that contrivance would’ve been artificial for me. I really think that one can’t buy RW, if one doesn’t buy Jeyne. And with millions of readers that were affected so strongly by RW, I’d say Jeyne’s was pretty believable character, even if she was a plot-device. There are plot-devices and plot-devices; almost every story needs them; and this one was successful, I say.

Until HBO decided to change it in their adaptation.

Edited June 7, 2013 by NotYourSir

[Weeping Sore]

http://static.tumblr...r2hg7o2_250.gif

Brilliant!

thanks! love the gif. What's working for me is I can totally see Thoros lifting this tiny cloaked thing up to his ear and making pronouncements. Then somebody wrests it away from him and finds out it was just a potato.

I swear, every second with Paul Kaye onscreen as Thoros is pure gold.

Edited June 7, 2013 by Weeping lobster

[Miodrag]

It was the afterward of the events where it came about as a silly plot line.

Oh, afterward? Only afterward, and not during the events, right? Well, why didn't you say so? From reading your first post, I got an impression you resisted Jeyne from the start. After all, she was a silly plot, as you say, and silly plots are to be renounced from the very start by witty readers such as yourself.

And now for real: if you read your post once more, you'll probably see it is you being angry at me and other critics of the show, not the other way around. (By the way, I won't mind if you call me a purist; the way some readers justify this adaptation and criticize ASOIAF in doing so, I'm more and more pleased with the purist reputation.) And it happens often. Show-lovers tend to attack us purists all the time. Which is fine, so long as they don't accuse us of whining.

[David Selig]

Maybe I’m wrong, but this hole notion that Robb’s infatuation with Jeyne isn’t plausible probably started nearly two years ago, soon after D&D announced they’re going to expand Robb’s arc in Season 2.

I think you are wrong. Look at the the archives of the board, there are a lot of posts and threads with complaints how contrived and implausible this is. I wrote some of them. ;)

Even if you think Jeyne’s subplot was bad, I honestly can’t see how did HBO fix it for you, by omitting the crucial, most important element: Robb’s grief over his kid brothers, whose death he greatly contributed to by sending Theon to Pyke. In my eyes, it had nothing to do with age, as some claim. Men of all ages fall for wrong women all the time. I bet all those smart-asses who criticize Robb/GRRM, would never managed to resist much weaker temptation, let alone something like Robb’s. And it has nothing to do with Tywin. I’m pretty sure Tywin nor Jeyne’s mother didn’t orchestrate Robb’s infatuation with Jeyne. They only used it to no ends afterwards, but how could they incept it? How could’ve Tywin even communicate with Westerlings, once The Crag was conquered by the Northerners?

But, all that aside, I really don’t understand people refusing to buy Jeyne, and then buying the Red Wedding. If Jeyne’s a plothole, than so is RW. Robb’s marriage to Jeyne is the core reason for RW; other factors fell in nicely, but in the core of it all is Robb falling for Jeyne (and Jeyne for him, by the way); without it, there is no RW. There can be RW without Tywin’s involvement, or without Jeyne’s mother, but not without Robb falling in love with a girl he wasn’t betrothed to, i.e. Jeyne. If I didn’t find it plausible, the RW would’ve never hit me so hard.

The falling in love is plausible, it's the marriage itself which is extremely contrived IMO.

As for buying the Red Wedding, I don't see what's the problem. It doesn't hurt its emotional intensity and impact one bit for me.

[PatrickStormborn]

We know that, but no matter how well they were to try to tell that to the audience, it would not have come off that way. Look at all the "Talisa is a spy" theories abound this season. Rather than a gift that fell in Tywin's lap, the whole ordeal would appear as if Tywin planned it all.

I think that's a huge stretch. Tywin, Roose and the Freys orchestrated a plan in response to Robb's marriage, but that doesn't mean anyone would assume Tywin was behind it. And if that was the fear, why not just make it explicit that Tywin was not involved?

As far as I can tell, it was mostly book readers who thought Talisa was a spy.

ETA: Personally I don't think Robb's quick wedding to Jeyne was a great idea. I just think that Talisa as a character is a lot worse.

Edited June 7, 2013 by PatrickStormborn

[Winter In My Heart]

The falling in love is plausible, it's the marriage itself which is extremely contrived IMO.

So the fact Robb in the books is so much his fathers son is way to contrived for it to be possible he wants to preserve a girls honor? Wow okay. Clearly there's people out there that don't understand what the Starks morals are about. (Or the ones that Ned was instilling in his kids anyway.)

[Weeping Sore]

I don't know if there's something wrong with me, but my first reaction to reading the RW chapter was pure relief that I would never have to read another Catelyn POV chapter.

It's a testament to Fairley that she made me like Cat, and the show RW was much more emotional for me.

[Winter In My Heart]

I don't know if there's something wrong with me, but my first reaction to reading the RW chapter was pure relief that I would never have to read another Catelyn POV chapter.

It's a testament to Fairley that she made me like Cat, and the show RW was much more emotional for me.

It was the exact opposite for me lol. I didn't care to much for her season one, then I went and read the books, came back to the show and then realized how much more I liked Cat and how good Michelle's acting is despite the fact she got shafted a lot of season two and three.

Edited June 7, 2013 by Winter In My Heart

[David Selig]

So the fact Robb in the books is so much his fathers son is way to contrived for it to be possible he wants to preserve a girls honor? Wow okay. Clearly there's people out there that don't understand what the Starks morals are about. (Or the ones that Ned was instilling in his kids anyway.)

Ned was far too responsible to throw away an army in the middle of the war and far too honorable to break a vow and a seripis deal he'd already made. He wouldn't have married Jeyne if he was in Robb's place, I am sure of this.

[Weeping Sore]

I think you are wrong. Look at the the archives of the board, there are a lot of posts and threads with complaints how contrived and implausible this is. I wrote some of them. ;)

The falling in love is plausible, it's the marriage itself which is extremely contrived IMO.

When Roose called her "my Queen," this season it really hit home how silly the marriage seemed.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Ned was far too responsible to throw away an army in the middle of the war and far too honorable to break a vow and a seripis deal he'd already made. He wouldn't have married Jeyne if he was in Robb's place, I am sure of this.

I think you are right about this. However, I think it is possible that a 15-16 year old Robb might have miscontrued how is father would have acted. Especially if he was sporting a boner.

I mean, realistically, it is quite possible that "I had to marry her for the sake of honor" was as much a rationalization for marrying the woman he wanted as it was the actual truth. Admittedly, that's not something I think GRRM himself implied in the text, though.

When Roose called her "my Queen," this season it really hit home how silly the marriage seemed.

I think that may just be Roose mocking the whole thing, though not openly enough to cause an issue.

Edited June 7, 2013 by Former Lord of Winterfell