[Book Spoilers] EP309 Discussion

[Winter In My Heart]

Ned was far too responsible to throw away an army in the middle of the war and far too honorable to break a vow and a seripis deal he'd already made. He wouldn't have married Jeyne if he was in Robb's place, I am sure of this.

I can agree I don't think Ned would have cheated no matter what was happening and what grieving news he got. But I think if he wasn't married, and in Robb's position, I think he would have married Jeyne.

Or maybe it was just the fact that Robb was raised up by his honorable father that made him realize he had to fix the horrible situation once he took her innocence. Either way it was derived from the fact he has Stark morals. It doesn't matter if Ned would have had sex with her, but I think he would have tried to fix the situation as best he could in that situation, like Robb had attempted to do.

[Castel]

We know that, but no matter how well they were to try to tell that to the audience, it would not have come off that way. Look at all the "Talisa is a spy" theories abound this season. Rather than a gift that fell in Tywin's lap, the whole ordeal would appear as if Tywin planned it all.

Except that the theory was probably influenced by book viewers' own theories about Jeyne. And even so...so what? They'll end up being proven wrong. This happens. Tough shit. And all it would take to disprove this notion is Tywin uttering a few lines. Clearly an insurmountable problem.

While I think it's sappy as all fuck (and even more emotionally manipulative than usual-or at least more hamfisted at it) FLOW's concerns about the time constraints and the audience swallowing the cultural dissonance probably weighed more on the minds of the producers.

[Weeping Sore]

I think that may just be Roose mocking the whole thing, though not openly enough to cause an issue.

I got that too. McElhatton can do so much with just the tiniest fluctuation of tone and expression. He will be #1 on the casting list if there is ever a Vladimir Putin biopic.

Edited June 7, 2013 by Weeping lobster

[Miodrag]

I think you are wrong. Look at the the archives of the board, there are a lot of posts and threads with complaints how contrived and implausible this is. I wrote some of them. ;)

The falling in love is plausible, it's the marriage itself which is extremely contrived IMO.

As for buying the Red Wedding, I don't see what's the problem. It doesn't hurt its emotional intensity and impact one bit for me.

Respectfully – and partially – disagree about Robb’s marriage. I took it as a sign of him having it enough: he didn’t want to fight any more in a war he’s wining all the time but can’t ever win for good. He says he married Jeyne for her honor, but, with GRRM’s characters being often in denial over themselves, I always thought that explanation was his way to justify the mistake in his own eyes. He always knew it’s going to be a mistake, but he went through with it anyway, because, after practically surrendering the war against Lannisters, he wasn’t able (or maybe didn’t want) to see how big the mistake really is. In a way, it isn’t unsimilar with Cat releasing Jaime: after receiving news of Bran and Rickon’s death, both she and Robb knew the war against Lannisters is lost, and started to pull out of it (the only difference being, Cat actually did something that made sense, because Jaime was the man she sensed in that conversation in the Riverrun dungeon, while Robb did something utterly foolish, even if Jeyne was the woman that deserved his love and respect, as appears to be the case according to her stand after the RW). That’s why I did and I do buy his marriage to Jeyne, by trying to look beyond his verbal justification. And that’s why I believed Roose in ADWD when he said to Theon that taking the Winterfell from Starks did end the war.

Anyway, I wasn’t this frequent on Westeros.org prior to last year. I’m even relatively knew to the forum culture (actually, this one is the first one I’m taking an active participation in), so I didn’t notice complaints on Jeyne that existed here. Earlier, fans’ reaction that was on my radar were posts under articles on newspapers’ sites and portals. From what I see now, you old-timers from Westeros.org probably went through every humanly possible subject concerning ASOIAF.

Edited June 7, 2013 by NotYourSir

[Miodrag]

Ned was far too responsible to throw away an army in the middle of the war and far too honorable to break a vow and a seripis deal he'd already made. He wouldn't have married Jeyne if he was in Robb's place, I am sure of this.

With this I completely agree. It doesn't mean Robb got what he deserved, of course (nor am I implying you implied that), just that I don't buy "Robb was his father's son" explanation. Robb was noble and brave and a good leader in his own right, but he was really not Ned 2.0.

[Winter In My Heart]

With this I completely agree. It doesn't mean Robb got what he deserved, of course (nor am I implying you implied that), just that I don't buy "Robb was his father's son" explanation. Robb was noble and brave and a good leader in his own right, but he was really not Ned 2.0.

I don't think anyone's implied that, or if I did that wasn't my intention. I don't think he was just like Ned, but he's still his fathers son as far as being honorable (or doing his best to be). I just think if Ned ever somehow ended up in that situation, which I can't see happening but still, he would have tried to remedy it in the best way he could. That's the way I see it as far as Robb goes, that he tried to fix the situation as best he could. We don't know if he was trying to go off of what he thinks Ned would do or not, but just from how he's characterized in the books, I got the impression he was trying to be like his father which was why he wanted to fix things when he dishonored Jeyne. (Though I do also think he loved her and he might have used the honor partly as an excuse to not marry a Frey.)

Edited June 7, 2013 by Winter In My Heart

[Miodrag]

I don't think anyone's implied that, or if I did that wasn't my intention. I don't think he was just like Ned, but he's still his fathers son as far as being honorable (or doing his best to be). I just think if Ned ever somehow ended up in that situation, which I can't see happening but still, he would have tried to remedy it in the best way he could. That's the way I see it as far as Robb goes, that he tried to fix the situation as best he could. We don't know if he was trying to go off of what he thinks Ned would do or not, but just from how he's characterized in the books, I got the impression he was trying to be like his father which was why he wanted to fix things when he dishonored Jeyne. (Though I do also think he loved her and he might have used the honor partly as an excuse to not marry a Frey.)

Actually, I saw you post only after I posted mine (since English isn't my first language, I usually type my posts in some spell-checking program and copy them later). In fact, one of the aspects of Robb's tragedy is that he always tried to apply Ned's logic, while he wasn't Ned's copy to begin with. I don't find him a hypocrite who hides behind his father's honor, God forbid. But from the very beginning of the war, he was always trying to follow the steps of his father, even while Ned was still alive. And at the same time he feared he's not up to the task, as evidenced in that touching little scene in the first book, when he wants to comfort Bran, but ends up in tears himself. The rapidity of the events that fell on his shoulders crushed him to the point that he was constantly seeking for someone he can rely on. That's why he turned to Theon (which was also understandable at that point, since it wasn't Theon that Robb misjudged, it was Balon), and later to Jeyne.

Edited June 7, 2013 by NotYourSir

[David Selig]

Respectfully – and partially – disagree about Robb’s marriage. I took it as a sign of him having it enough: he didn’t want to fight any more in a war he’s wining all the time but can’t ever win for good. He says he married Jeyne for her honor, but, with GRRM’s characters being often in denial over themselves, I always thought that explanation was his way to justify the mistake in his own eyes. He always knew it’s going to be a mistake, but he went through with it anyway, because, after practically surrendering the war against Lannisters, he wasn’t able (or maybe didn’t want) to see how big the mistake really is. In a way, it isn’t unsimilar with Cat releasing Jaime: after receiving news of Bran and Rickon’s death, both she and Robb knew the war against Lannisters is lost, and started to pull out of it (the only difference being, Cat actually did something that made sense, because Jaime was the man she sensed in that conversation in the Riverrun dungeon, while Robb did something utterly foolish, even if Jeyne was the woman that deserved his love and respect, as appears to be the case according to her stand after the RW). That’s why I did and I do buy his marriage to Jeyne, by trying to look beyond his verbal justification. And that’s why I believed Roose in ADWD when he said to Theon that taking the Winterfell from Starks did end the war.

That's certainly an interpretation of Rovv's decision process in regards Jeyne I havent seen before... Interesting idea, but I really don't see Robb as not wanting to fight anymore at this point. Remember, this is before Blackwater, before Duskendale, before the Karstark desertion, etc, when the chances of the Starks still looked pretty decent, even with Winterfell lost. Even after all those setbacks happened Robb still didn't even want to consider the possibility of bending the knee and got really angry when Cat proposed it.

I do think that when he said he married for honor he was lying (mostly to himself) and it was a justification for marrying the girl he felt in love with.

Ultimately the marriage not much of a problem for me, really. It's not completely impossible, just very unlikely the way I see the characters. Robb just seems too dutiful for this, even at 16.

[Winter In My Heart]

Actually, I saw you post only after I posted mine (since English isn't my first language, I usually type my posts in some spell-checking program and copy them later). In fact, one of the aspects of Robb's tragedy is that he always tried to apply Ned's logic, while he wasn't Ned's copy to begin with. I don't find him a hypocrite who hides behind his father's honor, God forbid. But from the very beginning of the war, he was always trying to follow the steps of his father, even while Ned was still alive. And at the same time he feared he's not up to the task, as evidenced in that touching little scene in the first book, when he wants to comfort Bran, but ends up in tears himself. The rapidity of the events that fell on his shoulders crushed him to the point that he was constantly seeking for someone he can rely on. That's why he turned to Theon (which was also understandable at that point, since it wasn't Theon that Robb misjudged, it was Balon), and later to Jeyne.

I agree. I kind of think things might have gone a little differently if he hadn't sent Cat to go try and talk to Renly. If she would have been with him the whole time Jeyne wouldn't have been needed at all as someone to take care of him when he was wounded. That's a little off point though. I basically saw things like that, where he was trying so hard to act the part of a man grown and do what Ned would do, but it was just to much and that the position he was in got thrust onto him so far and that he wasn't prepared enough. The fact he knew little of war in the beginning didn't help matters to much, even though he won every battle. It didn't help that he couldn't exactly trust all of his men. (Bolton) so just as green as he was in battle in the beginning, he also was in politics which even Ned was as far as the latter goes. But yeah like I said I definitely don't think he was Ned 2.0 but I do think he tried his best to act how he thought his father would in the situations he found himself in. It's just a shame he hadn't been around girls more (even in the show it didn't sound like he had been) or else that might have tremendously helped to resist taking comfort in a pretty girl who was tending to him. Maybe he was sheltered a bit by Ned and Cat, I'm thinking.

[Winter In My Heart]

Ultimately the marriage not much of a problem for me, really. It's not completely impossible, just very unlikely the way I see the characters. Robb just seems too dutiful for this, even at 16.

Well he did have to grow up rather fast. He might have been to dutiful but I just see it as him trying to take after his father, as well as his mother. (They're both about honor after all) and by taking a noble woman's innocence, he probably felt like it was his duty to remedy that. I agree I think he loved her and that it was in part used as an excuse, but I don't think that it's any less true just because he also happened to love her.

(Which is partly why I don't see the problem with Jeyne if they had changed things a bit and made her not an enemy bannermens daughter among other things to help make it work on screen. Because so many people think part of his reason was to marry out of love, so they could have easily played that up as well as showing that he thought he needed to marry her to preserve her honor.) I don't mind they wanted romance in the show, but I do think that they could have kept the character but tweaked things enough to make people be able to relate to it better than they could in the books. That's why I hate the fact they cut out the honorable part and used only 'love' in the show since it does take away some from Robb's character.

Plus the fact is, remember how angry he got when Jeyne came running out and wanted to go to the wedding with him? And then look at how Robb was in season one, that's another reason I find it unrealistic he suddenly fell for Talisa all because she was spunky/idealistic/and bold enough to question a king. Even someone as young as Robb I can't see would liking the fact someone's berating him. As noble as he is, that's no justification for anyone to say he would actually like being challenged against his authority. Especially when he already has all these bannermen that he's trying to keep in line and show he can be a leader despite his young age (in comparison to them), why on earth would he want to hear/know another person doubting and degrading him?

Edited June 7, 2013 by Winter In My Heart

[Wunhopkuendo]

Oh, afterward? Only afterward, and not during the events, right? Well, why didn't you say so? From reading your first post, I got an impression you resisted Jeyne from the start. After all, she was a silly plot, as you say, and silly plots are to be renounced from the very start by witty readers such as yourself.

And now for real: if you read your post once more, you'll probably see it is you being angry at me and other critics of the show, not the other way around. (By the way, I won't mind if you call me a purist; the way some readers justify this adaptation and criticize ASOIAF in doing so, I'm more and more pleased with the purist reputation.) And it happens often. Show-lovers tend to attack us purists all the time. Which is fine, so long as they don't accuse us of whining.

Yes afterward. Of course you can't tell during the events because you don't get the information until after. And for the "hole" notion of Robb's infatuation (not sure if this was an intentional pun or not), that isn't the contrived part. It is all the information we get after the fact that feels contrived. The RW scene works in the books because you get so little information; you really only get Cat's POV in regards to Robb. After the fact is when you get all the pieces and it starts to feel a bit contrived. On screen, it would be doubly so.

Anyway, in my own personal anecdotal experience, the book purists are people who have come to the books relatively recently. I read the first book when it came out, back before many on here even knew how to read. If you are one of those like me that waited patiently for years upon years between books and are still a book purist, more power to you. The GRRM is a god fascination wore off for me long ago. I'm just elated that I get to see one of my favorite stores shown on screen. So much so that I am willing to overlook character and plot changes that often work for the better. Let's not forget that GRRM has worked and continues to work on this show. If you have ever written anything in your life (not you specifically) then you know that often times you wish for a do-over. GRRM in many ways is getting that.

[Winter In My Heart]

If you have ever written anything in your life (not you specifically) then you know that often times you wish for a do-over. GRRM in many ways is getting that.

Okay. What about the fact that the Talisa/Robb arc in the show is the sort of troupe Martin has expressed dislike for in the past? I can understand if it's something else (like him regretting having the characters so young in the books) but when he's said before that he doesn't like the sort of fantasy story where spunky girl back talks royalty and royalty falls for them, I kind of doubt he wished for this change. Especially when you have fans here who go to events and get to ask a question and one of the girls on her asked him of the change and he goes "I guess they thought it was better." That gives me the impression he doesn't like this particular change. Are there others he probably likes? I'm sure there are some, but it's a little silly thinking he likes this one when it falls into the sort of category he's mentioned, in the past, isn't the sort of story he likes and tries to avoid.

Edited June 7, 2013 by Winter In My Heart

[rmholt]

Yes, Robb's marriage to Jeyne was DEFINITELY a shotgun wedding. So if you want to see the marriage on the show as a shotgun wedding, then it actually reflects somewhat the story in the books. Although personally I think that on the show he did it because he was in love and wanted her to be his wife, not because (he claimed, he could have been lying - and I think he likely was) he felt an obligation like in the book.

It reminds me of one of the more packed statements in the book about characters. Tywin said Jeyne was her mother's daughter and Robb was his father's son. With the benefit of hindsight, Jeyne trusted her mother who in no way was going to allow the Westerlings to go against the Lannisters. Now, I think Jeyne loved Robb, so if she was her mother's daughter it wasnt because she was LIKE her mother but because Tywin controlling her mother controlled Jeyne. I think it's a bit different for Robb. Robb is controlled by his father in a more subtle way - by example and from the grave, as a larger than life hero. So he could be controlled by knowledge of his father's sense of honor etc. No way a smarter guy would have set foot in the Twins. Like Ned, Robb expected more honor from others than was smart.

[rmholt]

Okay. What about the fact that the Talisa/Robb arc in the show is the sort of troupe Martin has expressed dislike for in the past? I can understand if it's something else (like him regretting having the characters so young in the books) but when he's said before that he doesn't like the sort of fantasy story where spunky girl back talks royalty and royalty falls for them, I kind of doubt he wished for this change. Especially when you have fans here who go to events and get to ask a question and one of the girls on her asked him of the change and he goes "I guess they thought it was better." That gives me the impression he doesn't like this particular change. Are there others he probably likes? I'm sure there are some, but it's a little silly thinking he likes this one when it falls into the sort of category he's mentioned, in the past, isn't the sort of story he likes and tries to avoid.

GRRM keeps saying he basically was very careful to select the guys who were going to take the series to TV and then signed it all over to them, that he understands the limits of TV (in fact he wrote GoT as a treat for himself as a project unrestrained by the realities of transfering his writing to TV - budget, effects, etc.) and that he really doesnt have anything to do with the series. They do check with him before kiling someone off so they dont box a critical character.

[Winter In My Heart]

GRRM keeps saying he basically was very careful to select the guys who were going to take the series to TV and then signed it all over to them, that he understands the limits of TV (in fact he wrote GoT as a treat for himself as a project unrestrained by the realities of transfering his writing to TV - budget, effects, etc.) and that he really doesnt have anything to do with the series. They do check with him before kiling someone off so they dont box a critical character.

What does him not having much to with the say in the series have to do with anything? They were saying he liked changes and I was just pointing out Talisa/Robb is the sort of fantasy story he's mentioned in the past that he does not like and tries to steer clear of. So it's doubtful to me he liked this particular change.

[rmholt]

Your joking right?

There's no colleges in that time and just because she is good at medicine doesn't make her smart. We've seen a few occasions where she isn't very bright.

Not only were there colleges there were medical schools.

[StoneToilet]

Don't forget about the emergence of JC and Young Griff that will be huge, in fact they might insert them earlier in the series and give them a little more of a backstory to make up for the lack of entertainment in AFFC, but also in concerns to AFFC Arienne's mini rebellion attempt with Myrcella along with the introduction of Darkstar and Arys Oakheart receiving the better part of Areo Hotah's long axe should be interesting to see.

I have to stop here and respond, even though there are pages of comments left, because ive seen too many posts referring to books 4 and 5, assuming they will comprise their own seasons. Problem is, the books took place concurrently. They wont be able to put an entire season out without jon, tyrion, or dany - the three most popular characters - and give us brienne, the martells, and greyjoys instead. If that means te show catches up to the books, so be it. My hope is the last two books will be finished sooner rater than later, maybe twow around the time next season starts.

[Winter In My Heart]

Not only were there colleges there were medical schools.

I'm going to assume your just trying to mess with me.

[Miodrag]

Yes afterward. Of course you can't tell during the events because you don't get the information until after. And for the "hole" notion of Robb's infatuation (not sure if this was an intentional pun or not), that isn't the contrived part. It is all the information we get after the fact that feels contrived. The RW scene works in the books because you get so little information; you really only get Cat's POV in regards to Robb. After the fact is when you get all the pieces and it starts to feel a bit contrived. On screen, it would be doubly so.

Anyway, in my own personal anecdotal experience, the book purists are people who have come to the books relatively recently. I read the first book when it came out, back before many on here even knew how to read. If you are one of those like me that waited patiently for years upon years between books and are still a book purist, more power to you. The GRRM is a god fascination wore off for me long ago. I'm just elated that I get to see one of my favorite stores shown on screen. So much so that I am willing to overlook character and plot changes that often work for the better. Let's not forget that GRRM has worked and continues to work on this show. If you have ever written anything in your life (not you specifically) then you know that often times you wish for a do-over. GRRM in many ways is getting that.

I read the books some three years before the show, back in 2008, so I only waited for ADWD. I'm not confusing GRRM with god, it's just that I'm of the opinion that ASOIAF is indeed a literary masterpiece; for now it looks like one, at least, because the story has to be finished for the final verdict. Not great fantasy, or great genre series, but great novels, period. Even with few complaints I have, I still think ASOIAF is head and shoulders above many other books that are considered masterpieces of modern literature. Back on topic: if done with more intelligence and elegance, I'm sure the adaptation of ASOIAF would've been the best TV series of all time. It surely would've been better than shows that are (rightfully) considered to be the best. And I'm not talking more money, or even more episodes: creatures like Talisa saved no penny and eaten quite a lot of screen time.

[thepooperthatwaspromised]

I was not going to weigh in on the whole Talisa issue because the argument seems to have devolved into an argument of preference vs. substance...BUT I do need to point out that the sheer number of people (both sullied and un-) who just don't buy R&T's love story is pretty clear evidence of an unsuccessful storyline. Regardless of whether you "liked" Talisa, or even Jeyne for that matter, not enough people bought into it, which makes it an inarguable failure. Maybe the pooch was already screwed...maybe Jeyne really was just a plot a device and the opportunity to make a more compelling love interest for Robb just couldn't be supported by the time and story constraints already in place, but inherently good writing makes you buy into it. And in a series (both TV and book) that provides so many relationships that fans would pay to see, when that doesn't happen for the majority of the fanship...who can legitimately argue that it's NOT a failure?

And while I don't feel the vitriol that so many do for Talisa, and I did cry salty crocodile tears when she named the baby and when she died, most of the great love stories in ASOIAF and GOT are earned over time (Dany/Drogo, Jaime/Brienne, Cat/Ned, etc). Mostly, we are urged by the series to suspect the "love at first, (or even second) sight". R&T's romance was as close as you can come to that without venturing into naive, beautiful Sansa territory.

BUT, my original posting reason isn't even about Talisa, it's about Cat/LS. Deepest apologies if someone already covered this, but regarding whether or not Michelle Fairley will be back:

From Buzzfeed:

So Catelyn is dead, but in the books, she is not actually gone! She becomes Lady Stoneheart! Who has deep gashes in her face from scratching herself, can’t speak because her throat was cut so deeply, and was in the river for a few days before being brought back to life. She marauds around killing Freys, plus anyone who might have done the Starks wrong, and appears occasionally going forward. Have you talked to Dan and David about Season 4?

MF: Well, you’ll just have to keep watching. You’ll have to keep wattttttcccchhhhin’.

The way Lady Stoneheart, zombie Catelyn, is described — she’s completely insane, basically.

MF: I’m completely insane, so it mightn’t be too much of an acting stretch!

Were that to happen in the show’s future, would that be fun?

MF: No one knows, no one knows. Sorry, Kate!

Oh my god — I’m asking IN THEORY. You mentioned before that at the end, Catelyn is purely consumed by vengeance, and that seems to be the after-death version of her. Which seems to be great fodder.

MF: Of course. For an actor to play something like that, I think visually it would be incredible. How do you portray evil, vengeance, lust for revenge? What does that do physically to a human being, what do they end up looking like? How do they attain it? The embodiment of that is something that would be incredibly exciting. Even evil people are justified. If you’re playing a character like that, you have to find a way of liking them.