[Book Spoilers] EP309 Discussion

[Mladen]

Remember, on the show Tyrion gets to do everything good and cool.

Well, they made Sansa kneel, and they equalized their sufferings during the wedding. It`s normal to expect this. So sad, and yet so true...

Edited June 4, 2013 by Mladen

[Rabel Dusk]

I'm sure I'm repeating things said earlier, but here goes --

I was sorry that there was only another stone windmill, and no Queenscrown tower in the middle of a lake. But, unless there was already such a tower somewhere in Northern Ireland, it was probably beyond their budget to create it. I wonder if Osha and Rickon will have any scenes next season as they travel to Last Hearth. I'll miss Osha. I always enjoyed watching Natalia Tena do her thing as that character.

Jon was doing Ygritte a favor by abandoning her. He couldn't take her with him back to the Wall. Looks like Jon got away without an arrow in his leg, unlike in the book.

I wonder if next season's comedy duo of Arya and the Hound will be as entertaining as Tyrion and Bronn?

As for the Red Wedding, I wonder how many viewers will be so angry that they will quit watching? Of course, if they stick around for next season, they may be happy to see some Lannisters meet with misfortune. I was interested to see the bread and salt hospitality ritual with the Starks and Freys. It's a pretty basic rule that you can't murder your guests after they eat your bread and salt. The Frey's name and honor will be in the dirt after this.

I believe in the book that Catelyn killed a minor Frey, some mentally challenged guy who functioned as a jester? For some reason, they changed that to Walder's latest wife. I was hoping that, since they changed it from the book, that she would have gone after Walder, himself. The way the scene was set up, she could have done it fairly easily.

Very tough to see Talisa killed so brutally. I guess the suspician that she was a Lannister spy was a red herring. If she had been, one would think that the Lannisters would have protected her. but you never know with the Freys

[Theo333]

You know, I loved Robb and Talisa's deaths, but a guy casually walking up and slitting Cat had all the drama and horror of a Monty Python skit.

It just didn't make me angry, it was just sort of cartoony.

[wolverine]

I'm sure I'm repeating things said earlier, but here goes --

I was sorry that there was only another stone windmill, and no Queenscrown tower in the middle of a lake. But, unless there was already such a tower somewhere in Northern Ireland, it was probably beyond their budget to create it. I wonder if Osha and Rickon will have any scenes next season as they travel to Last Hearth. I'll miss Osha. I always enjoyed watching Natalia Tena do her thing as that character.

Jon was doing Ygritte a favor by abandoning her. He couldn't take her with him back to the Wall. Looks like Jon got away without an arrow in his leg, unlike in the book.

I wonder if next season's comedy duo of Arya and the Hound will be as entertaining as Tyrion and Bronn?

As for the Red Wedding, I wonder how many viewers will be so angry that they will quit watching? Of course, if they stick around for next season, they may be happy to see some Lannisters meet with misfortune. I was interested to see the bread and salt hospitality ritual with the Starks and Freys. It's a pretty basic rule that you can't murder your guests after they eat your bread and salt. The Frey's name and honor will be in the dirt after this.

I believe in the book that Catelyn killed a minor Frey, some mentally challenged guy who functioned as a jester? For some reason, they changed that to Walder's latest wife. I was hoping that, since they changed it from the book, that she would have gone after Walder, himself. The way the scene was set up, she could have done it fairly easily.

Very tough to see Talisa killed so brutally. I guess the suspician that she was a Lannister spy was a red herring. If she had been, one would think that the Lannisters would have protected her. but you never know with the Freys

I would be more surprised if she didn't have scenes in next season than if she did. They seem to really like her as a character and we have already seen how things that were offscreen in the books may become onscreen on the show and vice versa.

[blackfish74]

Aha, that's how we get Blackfish out of the room.

Clever.

Not sure why he had to be there

[ace]

That RW is gutting every time. When I read it I knew from spoilers it was coming and I still threw away the book in flustration. (Yeah, I picked it back up later). And watching it, despite knowing it was coming was still hard. This is one episode I will not be re-watching. Well, ASOIAF is a harsh mistress, and treats us badly, but that's why we love it.

PS Didn't Jayne survive the real one? Or is my memory betraying me?

[Dio Forel]

.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Dio Forel

[Newstar]

You know, I loved Robb and Talisa's deaths, but a guy casually walking up and slitting Cat had all the drama and horror of a Monty Python skit.

It just didn't make me angry, it was just sort of cartoony.

Heh. I couldn't help but imagine the "Yoink!" from The Simpsons when I saw that happen.

True... But I hate the fact that line is deformed and given to Tyrion...It would be a noce touch if they have given ["the Northerners will never forget"] to one of the girls.

That makes no sense, for 3x10 anyway. If they stick with the books, the girls will probably be too catatonic with grief to busy themselves with nifty catchphrases about what the Northerners will or won't remember. Tyrion sees the bigger political picture about the repercussions of the Red Wedding, because he hasn't just lost his remaining family. What do Arya and Sansa care for what "the Northerners" will or won't do? As far as they know, they've just lost the only remaining Northerners they really care about: their mother and brother. Giving either of them that line, at least in 3x10, would make absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Newstar

[Raksha the Demon]

That RW is gutting every time. When I read it I knew from spoilers it was coming and I still threw away the book in flustration. (Yeah, I picked it back up later). And watching it, despite knowing it was coming was still hard. This is one episode I will not be re-watching. Well, ASOIAF is a harsh mistress, and treats us badly, but that's why we love it.

PS Didn't Jayne survive the real one? Or is my memory betraying me?

Jeyne did not attend the Red Wedding in the book; she was left at Riverrun; with, I think, the Blackfish. And she did survive.

[Revae]

Only complaint is that Roose looks like a punk, according to so many people.

Roose running around? Seriously? Does anyone who read the books see this guy running, from even 1000 rhino's charging him down, let alone the way he did in last night's ep?

Also the way he stabbed Robb, just jumping in an out. That's not Roose.

Also I always imagined Robb on his knees and Roose stabbing him with a longsword through the chest. Other than that, pretty decent showing. Loving the non-book readers reactions, hilarious.

[ace]

I believe in the book that Catelyn killed a minor Frey, some mentally challenged guy who functioned as a jester? For some reason, they changed that to Walder's latest wife. I was hoping that, since they changed it from the book, that she would have gone after Walder, himself. The way the scene was set up, she could have done it fairly easily.

That's public entertainment for you. Every villain has to be the worse than he is. And every good guy better than he is. They did the same with with Geoffrey,

[Raksha the Demon]

LS is horrible in the books. I would certainly be fine without her.

I would have been delighted if Cat had stayed dead; and won't miss Lady S. at all if she does not gurgle through sad scenes of vigilante hangings in the next season...

[Raksha the Demon]

Just an opinion, but he is an extension of Robb and the Starks and it is one of the most moving scenes in the series. Grey Wind never steered him wrong. He didn't want Robb to go in, once he is forced to stay behind by the Freys and Robb not wanting to piss of Walder further, it was the skin-crawling moment of the chapter.

It was moving in the series how he tried to break loose and tore limbs and whatever to get to Robb. So sad and terrible. Grey Wind is the Stark that most recaps and reviews are forgetting when they list the banner men, Cat, Talisa and baby, and Robb.

There are certain things that can get budget cut, but I do wish some monies/time/effort was reserved for this. Really, Nymeria drags out Cat later from the water, the direwolves are so crucial.

Poor Grey WInd was shown to go out in a crappy way that he most certainly did not in the book. The "You'll have to kill me to stop me from getting to Robb" theme was so so sad.

I have definitely been underwhelmed by the disuse of the direwolves in seasons 2 and 3. The bond between the wolves and the Starks is central to the ASoIaF storyline; the wolves are not just exotic pets; but a mythic link to magic and wildness.

Does anyone else think that Grey Wind looked like a real critter rather than CGI; and also seemed rather small/slight compared to Summer and Shaggydog (who might have been CGI)?

[Oakenfist]

Only complaint is that Roose looks like a punk, according to so many people.

Roose running around? Seriously? Does anyone who read the books see this guy running, from even 1000 rhino's charging him down, let alone the way he did in last night's ep?

Also the way he stabbed Robb, just jumping in an out. That's not Roose.

Also I always imagined Robb on his knees and Roose stabbing him with a longsword through the chest. Other than that, pretty decent showing. Loving the non-book readers reactions, hilarious.

Who thinks Roose looks like a punk? LOL, what a bunch of misinformation.

He ran out because of the of the crossbow bolts that were about to be unloaded indiscriminately at every guest.

[ViserionsFire]

The RW was Epic, one of the most disturbing scenes ever put on television. I re-read the chapter a couple of months ago, and the scene played out nearly as I remembered it in the book. I have to give lot's of credit for getting it pitch perfect. I was watching it with a mother-to-be who was invested in the Stark retribution. She was demoralized.

I also got goose bumps with the exchanges between Arya and Sandor. "I'm going to put a blade in your eye" Arya must make Clegane wonder what little shedevil he's got on his hands. This young one is someone who talks to him without fear, threatens him, and is able to deter him from being his naturally ruthless self (like how she stopped him from killing the farmer with his goods). Each season, Arya's character has developed exponentially. The first season she was playing the little tough girl. The second season she was living the tough girl to survive the likes of Tywin's bunch. This season, she has grown beyond the little girl into actually being a young woman that can look into the soul and stare down the toughest man in Westeros. What a future we're going to be getting in the next few seasons

[Trinket2]

-Fondling and kissing Talisa right in front of the man who's daughter you broke your marriage vow to. Bright, Robb. And classy, very classy.

-The Blackfish could just as well have stayed in Riverrun considering he spent the entire RW pissing

-Brave crow Jon Snow ran away. Bravely ran away away. When danger reared its ugly head he bravely turned his tail and fled. Without any thought of Ygritte, who just stood there looking sadly after him. It was better handled in the books where it was clear that they were picking sides and where Ygritte shot after him.

-The jump in-cut throat-jump out at the RW looked ridiculous. And Roose running from Cat? Come on.

-"The Lannisters give their regards" would have been much better with "Jaime Lannister sends his regards"

-The "let's name him Eddard!"-scene. Corny. In fact, the entire RW was too much about Robb/Talisa as opposed to the books when it was about Cat/Robb.

-The RW should have been built up more and longer, with more focus on dread than on action. They could have moved other parts of the episode, for example the Sam/Gilly scene. I do like the "oh, shit!"-moment when the Rains of Castamere starts playing, though.

-Minor nitpick: Bolton should have been cooler and less angry when he stabbed Robb.

-Cat should have had her breakdown. Catatonic looked silly. And before somebody gives me the "but that wouldn't have worked on screen" excuse that seems to be used to defend every flaw in this series around here, that's just not true. We've seen breakdowns done on tv before, and I'm certain that the actress playing Cat would be more than well equipped to do it.

The good part: Talisa and her stupid story line is dead! Yay!

Edited June 4, 2013 by Trinket2

[Lucifer Lightbringer]

Who wants to take bets on whether or not Jon will be the one to kill Ygritte?

[nubreed000]

Only complaint is that Roose looks like a punk, according to so many people.

Roose running around? Seriously? Does anyone who read the books see this guy running, from even 1000 rhino's charging him down, let alone the way he did in last night's ep?

Also the way he stabbed Robb, just jumping in an out. That's not Roose.

Also I always imagined Robb on his knees and Roose stabbing him with a longsword through the chest. Other than that, pretty decent showing. Loving the non-book readers reactions, hilarious.

I always pictured a spear going through Robb's chest while he's on his knees. And I don't like how they handled the final scenes. Catelyn's last moments were just awkward, and Roose Bolton jumping in and out, like you mentioned, was weird. Would've preferred something that was slower, and showed Roose approaching Robb and looking him in the eye before killing him.

Cat's scream and blank stare after seemed so fake...and after that silence some random dude just comes up and slits her throat. Weird.

I love the show, but the producers can't seem to execute the most important scenes properly.

[Dio Forel]

These are MY complaints. There are a LOT of them. ****begin incessant compaints... then hundreds of lines later they end*****

I am all for criticism. The RW was the most powerful moment I have ever read. But you just sounded like the most uptight, cynical, closed-minded, arrogant & outright most irritating person I have ever had to read a comment from. Damn man stop nitpicking every single aspect of the show. THE WIND WAS SUPPOSED TO BE BLOWING WEST!!!! HER HAIR WAS SUPPOSED TO BE CURLY NOT STRAIGHT!!!! THE WEDDING SONG WAS IN A HIGHER KEY THAN I THOUGHT IT WOULD BE!!!! This isn't the books!!! I appreciate some of the complaints, the lack of bannermen mainly. And the lack of Grey Wind action.

1) I agree I would've liked to see GreyWind attack Freys at the beginning.... but that would've made it way too obvious something was going to happen. They did show GW howling in despair later.

3) The big connection was between Robb & Catelyn. The warging capability between Robb & GreyWind was never really addressed so it would've been pretty random to see Robb all of a sudden warging out of his body into GW. And btw saying that GW's death was something barely cared for... yeah you are heartless. Who feels for a creature trying to break free & save his master getting shot multiple times defenselessly? With Arya to sit there & witness it?

5) Robb showed no confusion or despair? The entire time he was speechless, lost in the chaos... Yeah I know he wasn't frantic but he was completely dead inside & in shock. Why the hell else do you think he slowly rose and barely moved?

As for Catelyn's death..... she doesn't say anything about the hair.... she THINKS it.... can you please try to comprehend the difference between a book where thoughts are seen textually.... and a TV show where that does not happen. The reason why so many non-book readers were so moved is because it was a MOVING EPISODE!! They aren't all uptight and stuck up with only ONE thought on what the episode would be like, bitching about any little thing different. This episode was phenomenal. I read the books multiple times.. and I have the ability to watch something on screen and comprehend it is a different entity than the source material it came from. I appreciated the similarities... loved the entirety of the episode.... and respected the changes as this is an ADAPTATION. Stop being so cynical and start treating this like a series that is, for all intents and purposes, a gift. Stop going into an episode expecting A, B, C, D then E to happen & just let the episode happen as it is. People like you are the reason this show could fail: you are so difficult to be pleased and refuse to just enjoy the damn show. You have to bash every little thing that is different to you. Pretend you never read the books.... I bet you wont be so critical.

Sorry if that came off rude. But dear god I am so sick of seeing overwhelmingly insulting comments that are so clearly exaggerated. Sure there were disappointments... but to use horrible... and other phrases implying this was the worst episode of the series is flat out ridiculous. I don't know what shows/episodes you have been watching but you are out of your mind. The simple fact that you said GW being killed meant nothing to you just shows how up in the clouds on your throne ruling book Westeros you are... I don't care how it happened in the books... seeing GW trying to break free, right after seeing Robb is at his final moments, all while Arya is so close to reuniting with her family & almost close enough to get to GW.... thats compelling and absolutely painful. Block out ASOIAF, and step into the world of Game Of Thrones... both are amazing.... but they are two separate things. The show will never be the books... its physically impossible. But they've done a damn good job of an adaptation.

[ryangibsonstewart]

I am all for criticism. The RW was the most powerful moment I have ever read. But you just sounded like the most uptight, cynical, closed-minded, arrogant & outright most irritating person I have ever had to read a comment from. Damn man stop nitpicking every single aspect of the show. THE WIND WAS SUPPOSED TO BE BLOWING WEST!!!! HER HAIR WAS SUPPOSED TO BE CURLY NOT STRAIGHT!!!! THE WEDDING SONG WAS IN A HIGHER KEY THAN I THOUGHT IT WOULD BE!!!! This isn't the books!!! I appreciate some of the complaints, the lack of bannermen mainly. And the lack of Grey Wind action.

1) I agree I would've liked to see GreyWind attack Freys at the beginning.... but that would've made it way too obvious something was going to happen. They did show GW howling in despair later.

3) The big connection was between Robb & Catelyn. The warging capability between Robb & GreyWind was never really addressed so it would've been pretty random to see Robb all of a sudden warging out of his body into GW. And btw saying that GW's death was something barely cared for... yeah you are heartless. Who feels for a creature trying to break free & save his master getting shot multiple times defenselessly? With Arya to sit there & witness it?

5) Robb showed no confusion or despair? The entire time he was speechless, lost in the chaos... Yeah I know he wasn't frantic but he was completely dead inside & in shock. Why the hell else do you think he slowly rose and barely moved?

As for Catelyn's death..... she doesn't say anything about the hair.... she THINKS it.... can you please try to comprehend the difference between a book where thoughts are seen textually.... and a TV show where that does not happen. The reason why so many non-book readers were so moved is because it was a MOVING EPISODE!! They aren't all uptight and stuck up with only ONE thought on what the episode would be like, bitching about any little thing different. This episode was phenomenal. I read the books multiple times.. and I have the ability to watch something on screen and comprehend it is a different entity than the source material it came from. I appreciated the similarities... loved the entirety of the episode.... and respected the changes as this is an ADAPTATION. Stop being so cynical and start treating this like a series that is, for all intents and purposes, a gift. Stop going into an episode expecting A, B, C, D then E to happen & just let the episode happen as it is. People like you are the reason this show could fail: you are so difficult to be pleased and refuse to just enjoy the damn show. You have to bash every little thing that is different to you. Pretend you never read the books.... I bet you wont be so critical.

Sorry if that came off rude. But dear god I am so sick of seeing overwhelmingly insulting comments that are so clearly exaggerated. Sure there were disappointments... but to use horrible... and other phrases implying this was the worst episode of the series is flat out ridiculous. I don't know what shows/episodes you have been watching but you are out of your mind. The simple fact that you said GW being killed meant nothing to you just shows how up in the clouds on your throne ruling book Westeros you are... I don't care how it happened in the books... seeing GW trying to break free, right after seeing Robb is at his final moments, all while Arya is so close to reuniting with her family & almost close enough to get to GW.... thats compelling and absolutely painful. Block out ASOIAF, and step into the world of Game Of Thrones... both are amazing.... but they are two separate things. The show will never be the books... its physically impossible. But they've done a damn good job of an adaptation.

Well said.