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[Book Spoilers] EP309 Discussion

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I get why Roose ran away. After Catelyn shouts 'Robb' the gig is up, and Roose, is standing right next to one of the primary targets, with alot of Frey cronies about to rain down bolts. I would have gotten clear as well until the dirty work was mostly done.

As for Lady Stoneheart, I think she will be in, otherwise the Beric revival would have been a loose end.

I am doubting whether Fairley will play as Ladt Stoneheart though, or whether they;ll go with some cheaper choice. I'm sure Uncat gives them a alittle leeway in make-up, veils whatever.

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It did.

It turned the Red Wedding into a Romeo and Juliet love story tragedy where the young couple in love are murdered, with the focus on the love story.

Lack of Northern bannermen erases the fact that the North is still loyal to the Starks, that multiple people died trying to save Robb Stark's life at the Red Wedding instead of having them all slaughered without much ability to fight back with the only person trying to save Robb being his mum. There would have been no cost issue to give 2 or 3 Northerners some screen time this season [instead of Shae or Ros or Pod] and then have them die heroically at the RW.

Lack of direwolf action is a shame because it robs Greywind of the heroic death he had and it reduces the link between the Starks and the wolves, but plot wise its not a big deal.

So, the plot is still the same, no? North is basically done for a while, and a wolf is still dead. Do any of the people that haven't read the book think the north isn't done for? Then mission accomplished.

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As for Lady Stoneheart, I think she will be in, otherwise the Beric revival would have been a loose end.

I am doubting whether Fairley will play as Ladt Stoneheart though, or whether they;ll go with some cheaper choice. I'm sure Uncat gives them a alittle leeway in make-up, veils whatever.

Boy I hope they don't cast anyone else as Stoneheart. How many scenes does she have? Surely Fairley could be convinced to shoot a handful of scenes over the next couple of seasons. It has to be her to have the righteous feeling of vengeance against the Freys, and also the "she's still alive! err, that's not really her anymore.." queasiness that gives Stoneheart her essence.

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These are MY complaints. There are a LOT of them. Let me begin by saying this is my least favorite episode of the entire series and I am utterly disappointed. Benioff and Weiss were the whole reason I started reading A Song of Ice and Fire to begin with. Game of Thrones inspired me to pick up a novel and finish it for the very first time in my nineteen years of life. That novel in turn inspired me to read four more after that. I trusted them completely with this. The Red Wedding was their ultimate goal in the series and they've said it from the start. I am still in disbelief that they would butcher it so badly but I digress. Onto business.

1. Robb's arrival at the Twins was an event in and of itself. His arrival and his death should have been spread out between two episodes as it was in the books with two successive Catelyn chapters. The entire event happened way too fast. For those who have not read the books, Greywind (Robb’s direwolf who has been largely missing from the show until randomly appearing in a KENNEL this episode) attacks some Freys in the rain as they greet the Starks to their castle. Robb, going through great pains to appease Walder Frey, decides to CHAIN his trusty direwolf outside (not in a damned dog kennel). Throughout their time at the Twins, Greywind howls in despair, sensing what is to come.

2. Blackfish & Jeyne (Talisa) are supposed to be safe at Riverrun; not at the Twins with Robb & Catelyn. Jeyne is still alive in the books, supposedly with Robb’s unborn child. An entire plot element currently hinges on whether or not that child is a boy. She should not have been killed off. I’m surprised they didn’t kill the Blackfish as well. How do they explain what he was even doing while his niece and great nephew (KING) were being slaughtered? I suppose he has magically escaped the castle and all the carnage outside to return to Riverrun, where he will most certainly be needed in the future for Jaime’s scenes.

3. Greywind dies AFTER Robb. This is extremely important (sentimentally-wise) as Robb’s real last words are “Greywind…” not “Mother…” It is to be assumed Robb wargs into his direwolf after he dies since this is the same moment Greywind viciously attacks nearby Freys who have not yet began their assault. Robb is betrayed, killed by his own man, wargs into his wolf, then dies all over again. It is part of his death and cutting that out of the show makes it considerably less tragic. To match, the death they gave Greywind here was so lacking in dramatic force or quality, you barely even cared that he was killed.

4. Another thing that makes Robb’s death less bleak is his childish disgruntlement towards Walder Frey throughout the episode. At this point in the books, Robb is genuinely sorry for what he did to his house and wants to make amends. He sustains every slight Walder throws at him without a flinch and handles himself extremely well at the Twins in the face of every petulant Frey. It’s hard to feel sorry for him here with those petty school boy heroics.

5. Most of the deaths in this episode were incredibly underwhelming compared to the deaths in A Storm of Swords. This was for many reasons, unfortunately. First of all, overly dramatic music was being played over everything when we should have been treated to nothing but the Rains of Castamere slowly digressing into the boom doom boom of the musicians’ drums. Secondly, Robb’s actor did an absolutely horrible job at displaying any sort of confusion, shock, fear, or despair. I heard he cried after he discovered how his character was to be killed but you never would have guessed he actually cared from his performance.

Catelyn’s actor was MORE than capable of carrying out some of the horrific things G.R.R. Martin described in his books but for whatever reason, Benioff and Weiss decided to stray for something far drabber. Going catatonic may sound like a proper reaction to the soul crushing sight of what you think is your only surviving child being killed in front of you but when Cat’s scream fades out and she just stands there motionless, it doesn’t deliver the jarring reaction her death deserves. It looks more as if she just accepts it and stops struggling. In the books, she scratches her face to ribbons as she screams bloody murder and the Freys waste no time in apprehending her by the hair. As her braid is yanked back, she thinks “No, not my hair! Ned loves my hair!” This would have been absolutely perfect had those been her last words. She literally goes mad with grief but viewers simply can’t grasp the extent of that grief without lines such as this.

Jeyne’s (Talisa’s) death, besides being totally uncanon, took away from the relationship between mother and son. It wasn’t supposed to be about Jeyne or Robb’s child. It was supposed to be about Catelyn and HER child. This is the relationship we had come to understand in-depth from Cat’s perspective since the first book. Jeyne’s family were also supposed to be suspected conspirators in the Red Wedding. Their daughter was not planned to be killed along with the Starks despite Jeyne’s alleged devotion to Robb. As I mentioned before, a huge plot element hinges on her and her baby. By the fifth book, Blackfish holds Riverrun against the Lannisters with Jeyne tight under guard. He defends her with his life. Why would he do this if not to protect an heir? Now what are they going to come up with when G.R.R. Martin reveals Jeyne is pregnant with the King in the North’s son?

Forget the main characters for a second; part of the horror of the Red Wedding was that so many people you were starting to like were all being slaughtered like farm animals. It is too much to expect to see minor characters such as Dacey Mormont and Smalljon Umber but surely their roles could have been replaced with existing characters in the show. Characters who, in the books, did not matter much. Lopping off the Greatjon’s head in place of his son’s would have been an excellent deviation as the Greatjon is supposed to be held captive then hardly ever mentioned again. Instead, we watch a bunch of bearded men who we’ve never even seen before being killed in humdrum fashions. No crossbow bolts through the mouth, no beheadings; none of that.

I doubt it would have had an impact anyway since the gore in this episode was completely unrealistic and tainted by Hollywood action movies. People do not instantly lose consciousness when their throat is cut then fall to the floor dead. When your esophagus is severed, you lose the ability to breathe through your mouth/nose and begin breathing out of a hole in your neck. This is largely impossible though since the wound bleeds profusely, clogging your esophagus with fluids. You essentially drown on your own blood in a panic, making all sorts of horrible snorting noises for up to three minutes. I’m not even sure G.R.R. Martin was aware of this before writing the Red Wedding but slitting throats was never described as one fell graze upon the neck. Catelyn SAWED through this person’s throat until they died. Stabbing a person in their heart is another matter but looks like Bolton missed the mark! Roose had a tiny dagger in place of a longsword and apparently decided to stab Robb in the lower part of his lung (causing instant death… ?).

While all this is happening inside the castle, the Stark host outside is supposed to be burning to death by the masses as a result of giant feast tents rigged to catch fire and collapse on top of them. Rather than depict the elaborate trap G.R.R. Martin conceived, it is simply implied all the Stark men outside are put to the sword. Good thing the viewers have no idea how many Stark men there are in comparison to Bolton men or else they would surely question the effectiveness of an open, armed conflict.

6. Roose’s performance here was a huge disappointment. I was setting my expectations high assuming this actor would be the one to do everything right. I was thoroughly enjoying his portrayal of the Leech Lord up until this point. He seemed so smug whereas in the books, he barely made an attempt to talk to anyone. He played his part perfectly while most of the Freys were a nervous wreck. But he was never cheeky about it. Here, he looks like he’s taking great pleasure in taunting the Starks as if he hates them. Roose is a man who plays for the winning team and takes no particular joy in betrayal. He just accepts that it’s practical and carries out his atrocities without guilt. In addition to screwing up his behavior, the actor got his body movements all wrong as well. Roose is supposed to glide in and out of the hall as confident and smooth as can be. Here, he darts around, ducking his head and lunging out of harm’s way. It’s just so unlike the Lord of the Dreadfort. But most importantly, he says to Robb just before he stabs him “the LANNISTERS send their regards.” I’m sorry, but WHY did you change that from “the Kingslayer sends his regards?” WHY do you think G.R.R. Martin set it up that way?! Cat is supposed to believe Jaime had a hand in her son’s demise from that statement. Cat FREED Jaime so she instantly thinks she’s killed her own son with her foolish actions. She’s supposed to believe that Jaime betrayed her later on in the series but of course viewers will never catch on to this.

7. Lastly, Sandor & Arya’s story was poorly done here. Arya was supposed to be desperate trying to get into the Twins despite all the bloodshed so that she could see her mother and brother once again. The Hound somehow managed to knock her out and carry her off unseen without a fret but in the books, it’s a fight for survival. Frey men attack them and Sandor has to kill a few with an axe before Arya makes a run for it. Just as she’s about to reach the castle, the Hound hits her atop the head. It would have been a much more emotional scene to see Arya kicking and screaming as Sandor tries to subdue her like it was in A Storm of Swords.

I was so hyped up for this moment ever since I read it in the books. I can’t tell you how immensely let down I am. This was meant to be the most significant event in the entire series and I do not feel they did it justice by any means. Viewers of the show will never know how much better it could have been; how much better it should have been. I’m not done with the series but I can definitely say now that I prefer G.R.R. Martin’s works over Benioff and Weiss’s any day. If they would just stick to the damned books instead of making their own changes all the time, I’d be happy. Cut what you need to but don’t add things that were never written down by the author. That’s rule No.1 of any adaption. I can only see this getting worse as the story progresses. Unless the producers get back on track and start doing things the way they should have done all along, I have no more hope left for Game of Thrones.

I was also a little disappointed with the RW. It didn't hit me as much as the book did.

But I wouldn't dismiss Benioff and Weiss rewriting yet. Because they also added amazing scenes which were not in the books e.g chair sequence with the small council, Mill dialog between Rob & Edmund.

As good as the writing of R.R. Martin is, after SoS and the killing of Tywin the story goes downhill. It felt like "Lost" after season 3. The story is going in circels and there are many new characters added for them i cant care less.

If Benioff and Weiss can improve on that, everything is forgiven.

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Have heard from a few people that the Greatjohn had a falling out with the producers or something and that is why he is no longer on the show.

As far as I understand it, Clive Mantel had other commitments so wouldn't have been available to shoot during Season Two.

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I was also a little disappointed with the RW. It didn't hit me as much as the book did.

But I wouldn't dismiss Benioff and Weiss rewriting yet. Because they also added amazing scenes which were not in the books e.g chair sequence with the small council, Mill dialog between Rob & Edmund.

As good as the writing of R.R. Martin is, after SoS and the killing of Tywin the story goes downhill. It felt like "Lost" after season 3. The story is going in circels and there are many new characters added for them i cant care less.

If Benioff and Weiss can improve on that, everything is forgiven.

Is that a fair standard to hold someone to? A shocking plot twist didn't impact me as much the second time? Unless someone invents one of those memory erasers from MIB, we'll never be able to figure out which one is more impactful, and it would vary based on the person viewing/reading.

I'm sure many people thought the sword to the unborn child was much more shocking and unforgiving than what happened in the books.

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Well I had to come late for the discussions because the forum was down for me till now. Awesome episode IMO, really well done. Michele nailed it and I liked that she ended in a catatonic way despite some complaints that I've read here in the forum. I think that the impact was much greater, at least for me.Of course that this can affect the way Lady Stoneheart looks - but again they can change that with the way on how they deal with her body after she is thrown in the river.

Despite all the preparation for the scene with the music, doors being shut, Cat's sense that something bad was about to come, the stabbing on Talise was a shock (and I didn't even care about Talisa. Here my only complaint was the fact that she was pregnant and wanted to name their son Eddard.

The rest of the episode was also great, loved Rickon scene, very touching and The Hound with Arya was also cool, specially the scene with the old trader. Can't wait for the season finale.

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Poor GreyWind was a bit short changed, in the book he goes out fighting, tearing out Frey throats and taking names

In the book he kills four Frey wolfhounds and bites off the arm of a single man. I'm not sure where this almost mythical idea of him taking out dozens of Freys trying to get to Robb comes from but it ain't the books.

Grey Wind kills dozens of Lannister troops during the Battles of Whispering Woods and also at Oxcross but at the Twins he is felled by dozens of Frey crossbowmen.

Edited by Cadiva

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Remember people....it's nearly ZERO expense to WRITE all this stuff into a story. Putting it into TV is another beast all together.

Why didn't Cat claw her face to ribbons? Because that make-up effect will have to be reproduced again and again, which means $$$. Give these guys a break and stop being spoiled children.

Just a quick glance; the GoT audios books (5 of them) come in around 180 hours of read time at a listening pace. TV has given us about 30 hours. Expect things to be a bit flat if you have read the books already.

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Found the fight scene super-fun, but out of place. I agree the conclusion was awkward, really the first false notes of Dany's S3 thread. I wish this could have been a Stark/Snow-only episode, but they may have wanted to avoid telegraphing the ending with a little, "see, there's other stuff going on, too, the wedding is just a sideshow..."

This episode was pretty much the inverse of Blackwater. It had all the storylines Blackwater didn't and none of the ones it did.

Remember people....it's nearly ZERO expense to WRITE all this stuff into a story. Putting it into TV is another beast all together.

Why didn't Cat claw her face to ribbons? Because that make-up effect will have to be reproduced again and again, which means $$$. Give these guys a break and stop being spoiled children.

Just a quick glance; the GoT audios books (5 of them) come in around 180 hours of read time at a listening pace. TV has given us about 30 hours. Expect things to be a bit flat if you have read the books already.

Personally I liked Cat not scratching her face and instead just dying inside. It feels foreshadowing and I don't think scratching her face is that important. It's a highly unusual way to react and probably harder not to play into melodrama.

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Remember people....it's nearly ZERO expense to WRITE all this stuff into a story. Putting it into TV is another beast all together.

Why didn't Cat claw her face to ribbons? Because that make-up effect will have to be reproduced again and again, which means $$$. Give these guys a break and stop being spoiled children.

Just a quick glance; the GoT audios books (5 of them) come in around 180 hours of read time at a listening pace. TV has given us about 30 hours. Expect things to be a bit flat if you have read the books already.

I agree with this in many ways. I 3will say I would not say "flat"; just different.

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Remember people....it's nearly ZERO expense to WRITE all this stuff into a story. Putting it into TV is another beast all together.

Why didn't Cat claw her face to ribbons? Because that make-up effect will have to be reproduced again and again, which means $$$. Give these guys a break and stop being spoiled children.

Just a quick glance; the GoT audios books (5 of them) come in around 180 hours of read time at a listening pace. TV has given us about 30 hours. Expect things to be a bit flat if you have read the books already.

That's a good way to put it. If you treat the books as a minute a page, D&D had to trim an incredible amount to fit their small HBO budget. Even though HBO is investing what they can into the show, it's obvious they can't afford the billions involved to really show everything from the books.

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Why didn't Cat claw her face to ribbons? Because that make-up effect will have to be reproduced again and again, which means $$$.

True, but I'm also one of those in the camp thinking the hysterical madness wouldn't have translated well to screen. Sobbing and clawing the face just isn't how we "do" madness in TV or in film these days, and it'd probably look as out of place as a Prince Valiant haircut or 80s hair or book-Dario doing whatever the heck he does with his beard. Yeah, it's kind of silly that we tend to judge what's "realistic" by our very contemporary aesthetic standards rather than those of twenty years ago or twenty years hence, but that's the way we think. Colourful banners and pageantry would probably have a similar effect: "I want my gritty Game of Thrones, not some Men in Tights Errol Flynn Robin Hood crap!"

One point on the impending doom in this episode: I think the show displayed plenty of foreshadowing - just the right amount, I'd say, along with just the right amount of levity to make you think everything was going to be OK. Yes, the book has much more foreboding, but that's because we see the event through Cat's POV, and by that time Cat is becoming (justifiably!) paranoid, and definitely unreliable as a narrator: we know that SHE is very nervous, but we're not entirely sure if she's just overdoing it, or if she's really on to something. I don't think an impartial 3rd person POV would be successful at providing so much warning without also giving the game away - and the TV show is much more that impartial view. For example, there's no way they could have shown Grey Wind complaining: that would have completely revealed that something was up, given that TV show animals are usually far more prescient than any human character.

Grey Wind's death: disappointing but in retrospect perfect. Arya once again unable to help anyone she cares about; Grey Wind dying exactly as Robb did, shot down in a cage, with no chance to fight. (Plus it saves money, and to be honest I'm increasingly thinking that keeping the dire wolves away from interactions with humans is a good idea. They're just not looking that good.)

I do wish there had been a few familiar bannermen getting killed - as others on the board have mentioned, keeping a few almost-lineless extras around (like Steve/Scott/whatever on Lost) would have been a very good idea. For future plot developments, the missing bannermen don't matter at all: "I will join you, Lord Stannis, not because I support you, but because my son perished in the Twins - and the North remembers." That's all they need in a season or two. But for emotional impact, I wish they'd been there.

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A lot of really good points posted here, especially the defense by Dio Forel (ill spare you the long quote for the 7th or 8th time, but really well put)

So glad i had the chance to watch alone before my unsullied gf was off work. As soon as Talisa said "Eddard", the tears started flowing, and the cat would have been out of the bag.

All in all, stellar! Granted, they could have done this or that to make it more like the books, but it came through gloriously.

Also, im on the wagon with more Rickon and Osha screen time. Yes, i know they arent mentioned for close to 3 books, but that didnt stop Theon from making an appearance. I have a feeling theyll have great or smalljon foster Rickon like a true northener.

"We're not Southrons!"

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Only Ygritte and Tormund survived ? Thenn warriors are missing in tv show, I think we'll not have a strike from the south. Only the battle of Castle Black with Mance and probably in season 4.

Edited by Nanaki

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Question about the name "The Red Wedding." Is that a term from the books, or was it dubbed that by fans (a la Purple Wedding, UnCat, etc.)?

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Question about the name "The Red Wedding." Is that a term from the books, or was it dubbed that by fans (a la Purple Wedding, UnCat, etc.)?

it is referred to in the books by multiple characters in different ways..."they will call it a red wedding" "it was a red wedding" "it is going to be a red wedding," etc

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Question about the name "The Red Wedding." Is that a term from the books, or was it dubbed that by fans (a la Purple Wedding, UnCat, etc.)?

It's in the book. I believe in a Davos chapter.

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