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[Book Spoilers] EP309 Discussion

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I don't think the issue is not Roose "running off" per se, but more the way he did it. Roose Bolton does not simply flee like a frightened child or some random coward, he's far too awsome for that xD And yes, the directing wasn't really splendind, since the first impression you get when you watch the scene is that Roose is running because he's been hit by Cat and is afraid to actually get tangled up in the fighting.

Did you see how hard Cat slapped him? He probably had to go change himself after that bitch slap. I also was expecting to see Roose stab Rob in the back and have a sword come out the other side, but that is really and unnecessary special effect that costs money, whereas stabbing in the chest costs nothing and gets the same point across. I was expecting Jaime Lannister instead of Lannister's, but I am guessing that the writers/directors felt that the fan base had just jumped on board with Jaime redemption and didn't want everyone to think he had anything to do with the RW. It will be difficult to follow that arc if the tv fans keep thinking "I still hate you because you killed Rob!"

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Not quite half of book three done and the most interesting part of Bran's arc is over.

I really wonder how the rest of his story line will be handled. Looks like there will be no Coldhands in the show because the time to introduce him would have been when the ravens appeared (I for one will be glad if we get no Coldhands I have never understood what people thought interesting about him. IMHO he hardly merits being called a character).

Just Bran, Hodor, Meera and Jojen trudging through the woods for weeks after weeks? No giant elk either, for obvious budget reasons ... Also, so far we haven't had a single mention of Bloodraven and almost nothing about the children of the forest. Non-bookreaders may find this very unconvincing and uninteresting I'm afraid.

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Did you see how hard Cat slapped him? He probably had to go change himself after that bitch slap. I also was expecting to see Roose stab Rob in the back and have a sword come out the other side,

Where do people get the idea he stabbed him in the back???? Definitley not in the book.

I always thought Roose stepped right in front of Robb and looked him in the eye when he gave him the Lannister's regards and shoved his sword through his heart. So much more brutal and a totally Roose thing to do.

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It is interesting that this episode both invented a scene with fun / glorified violence (Jorah, Grey Worm, and Daario taking on waves of soldiers) and made the Red Wedding violence even more one-sided than it was in the books (no direwolf fighting, no desperate Northern bannermen brawling, just Catelyn slitting one noncombatant's throat.) Is that an intentional juxtaposition? Are we supposed to make something of it? We feel good and triumphant at the sack of Yunkai and then get smacked with the visceral, gloriless horror of the Red Wedding. But more people died in Yunkai. The cause of Northern freedom died at the Red Wedding; Dany is decimating the culture of the slave cities.

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It did.

It turned the Red Wedding into a Romeo and Juliet love story tragedy where the young couple in love are murdered, with the focus on the love story.

Lack of Northern bannermen erases the fact that the North is still loyal to the Starks, that multiple people died trying to save Robb Stark's life at the Red Wedding instead of having them all slaughered without much ability to fight back with the only person trying to save Robb being his mum. There would have been no cost issue to give 2 or 3 Northerners some screen time this season [instead of Shae or Ros or Pod] and then have them die heroically at the RW.

THIS. didn't like this focus shift. The significance of killing the King in the North and all his bannermen who could've continued the war is downplayed.

Not that it mattered storywise since they didn't show up in season 3 anyway, sucked nevertheless

Although the next episode will show the stark host being shattered, Robb seemed deserted in the episode, contrary to the book-scene where

the northmen go down together, still putting up a fight.

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THIS. didn't like this focus shift. The significance of killing the King in the North and all his bannermen who could've continued the war is downplayed.

Not that it mattered storywise since they didn't show up in season 3 anyway, sucked nevertheless,

Just from my perspective, I didn't really see much of a shift. I still saw the scene almost exclusively through Catelyn's eyes, and I saw it as being about family -- about Catelyn and her children. Her acceptance of Talisa was sort of more hope for her as a mother. It means another daughter, grandchldren, etc.. It was really the first positive family glimmer she'd have in a very long time, and then it was all brutally stripped away from her.

The book RW did have more on the bannermen, but I still saw the scene itself as ultimately being about Catelyn's losses -- and ultimately, what the Stark family had suffered personally -- throughout the series. The aftermath of it is when the politics sunk in more. At least for me, I'm fine with them keeping the focus primarily on the family for emotional impact, and having the political repercussions being the longer-lasting issue.

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It did.

It turned the Red Wedding into a Romeo and Juliet love story tragedy where the young couple in love are murdered, with the focus on the love story.

Lack of Northern bannermen erases the fact that the North is still loyal to the Starks, that multiple people died trying to save Robb Stark's life at the Red Wedding instead of having them all slaughered without much ability to fight back with the only person trying to save Robb being his mum. There would have been no cost issue to give 2 or 3 Northerners some screen time this season [instead of Shae or Ros or Pod] and then have them die heroically at the RW.

Lack of direwolf action is a shame because it robs Greywind of the heroic death he had and it reduces the link between the Starks and the wolves, but plot wise its not a big deal.

I feel like we must have been watching some different version of the RW. Mine was like in the books primarily from Catelyn's POV and focused on the desperate attempt of a mother to save her child.

I think we will see some Stark/Tully bannermen fighting in the next episode. I believe that the writers wanted to portray the horror of being trapped and caught completely unawares so having a big fight would have changed that atmosphere. They wanted a slaughter not a brawl.

Let's say that Greywind gets out and kills a few Freys before he is shot down. How does that change anything or make the outcome any better? If anything it is even worse because you get the few seconds of hope were you think that maybe he will run inside and save Robb and Cat or at least himself. I think Grewind's fate exactly mirrored Robbs. Both great fighters but trapped, outnumbered and completely powerless against what was coming.

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Lets see from episode 1 untill now

1. Eddard Stark = execution

2. Catelyn Stark = After seeing her baby knifed and arrowed couple of times , gets knifed as well

3 Robb Stark = after fighting and fighting for 3 season gets knifed and arrowed

4. John Snow = still alive , probably because he doesnt carry the name Stark

5. Greyjoy = even he isnt stark at all , since he was with them , they cut his penis off !! other things as well ....

6. Arya Stark = miracle ! , still alive , but after seeing so much death around (her fathers as well) and probably will become something bad ...

7. Sansa = Gets beaten , almoust raped , humiliated and spited on .

8. Brandon = legs broken , almoust died in winterfell and runs towards the whitewalkers.

9. Rickon = uselless

So i have suggestion , instead Game of Thrones , why dont we rename it to Miserable Stark Life.

As a guy said , im going from Stark to Stanis church now , since all starks that are left are boys and girls ....

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Maybe it has been mentinioned and I have missed it, but since search is disabled I can't check: Do we have any idea where is Blackfish? Last thing he did was going to take a piss, and then we don't know?

Hope he appears in next episode, to find out how they make up with the books.

Edited by Koril

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I feel like we must have been watching some different version of the RW. Mine was like in the books primarily from Catelyn's POV and focused on the desperate attempt of a mother to save her child.

Let's say that Greywind gets out and kills a few Freys before he is shot down. How does that change anything or make the outcome any better? If anything it is even worse because you get the few seconds of hope were you think that maybe he will run inside and save Robb and Cat or at least himself. I think Grewind's fate exactly mirrored Robbs. Both great fighters but trapped, outnumbered and completely powerless against what was coming.

Yes, I agree. My impression when reading the chapter was that even though Robb's Bannermen tried to protect him, the tragedy was the Frey's and Bolton betrayal and the brutal killing of both Robb and Cat. The amount of expense that HBO would have to shell out to create the book image of the RW would be astronomical. I think they did a great job of transferring what the book intent and feeling was to the screen. Remember, there are only a few pages dedicated to the betrayal in the book, and the screen time provided opportunities for everyone in the scene to give convincing performances. That the scenes focus was primarily on Cat, allowed her to give a terrific performance in revealing first her anger, then her desperation, and eventually turning numb with grief. I read this chapter a couple of months ago, and other than the Talisa part, I think they really followed the book. The part where Arya gets within the Castle grounds to see how Robb's Bannermen were killed was different than the the book. But,this may add to her characters development which has grown immensely during the past 2 seasons.

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Just from my perspective, I didn't really see much of a shift. I still saw the scene almost exclusively through Catelyn's eyes, and I saw it as being about family -- about Catelyn and her children. Her acceptance of Talisa was sort of more hope for her as a mother. It means another daughter, grandchldren, etc.. It was really the first positive family glimmer she'd have in a very long time, and then it was all brutally stripped away from her.

The book RW did have more on the bannermen, but I still saw the scene itself as ultimately being about Catelyn's losses -- and ultimately, what the Stark family had suffered personally -- throughout the series. The aftermath of it is when the politics sunk in more. At least for me, I'm fine with them keeping the focus primarily on the family for emotional impact, and having the political repercussions being the longer-lasting issue.

Don't get me wrong, I liked the interaction between Robb and Cat very much, I think that part war realized extremely well; Fairleys acting was great.

Yet it just felt like there was something missing. All the loyalists going down in just a few seconds somehow felt wrong and the impression of complete

chaos I got while reading just wasn't there in the way I imagined it.

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My favourite part of the episode was when The Three Musketeers took out Yunkai all by themselves through a smashing choreography.

I guess there wasn't enough time/money to teach the morroccan extras to do more than stand really still.

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I couldn't watch it until a few hours ago, I think everything which was great about this episode has been said.

What bothered me:

- No dialouge between Robb and Roose. I expected Roose showing off that letter with Theons skin, they even showed Ramsay flaying his little finger, why not use it. That would be a great, indirect reveal, and give the whole episode more impact about how the Boltons changed sides.

- Roose stabbed Robb with a knife. I hoped he had no helmet on, so we could see it's Roose, but there is no pink cloak, no sword through the heart. You can't really distinct the lord of the Dreadfort from a mere foot soldier, that sucks.

- No mentally challenged Aegon for Cat to kill. But I can live with that

- I didn't like the music during the slaughter

- I didn't like The Rains stopping before the actual slaughter and that there was nobody singing

Thats it. Other than that, they nailed it. Hats off for the guy who plays Walder Frey, and all the Extras who played Freys (they really looked "frey-ish").

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Maybe it has been mentinioned and I have missed it, but since search is disabled I can't check: Do we have any idea where is Blackfish? Last thing he did was going to take a piss, and then we don't know?

Hope he appears in next episode, to find out how they make up with the books.

Since episode 10 picks up right after the massacre, I am assuming it'll go two ways depending on what D&D's plan is:

- either someone says something along the lines of "Blackfish escaped in the commotion, nowhere to be found"

- or he will be shown (or mentioned) to be a captive along with Edmure.

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Hats off for the guy who plays Walder Frey, and all the Extras who played Freys (they really looked "frey-ish").

yep, the frey's were great. Although I didn't imagine them looking like hobos while reading, they pulled it off.

edit: grammar

Edited by Jory Cassel

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So who really got Robb killed? Was it Tywin, Roose, or Walder?

Or was it really Stannis and those leeches?

1-) Walder (guest right violation)

2-) Roose (betray his own king for southern kingdom)

3-)Tywin

4-) leeches

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Okay seriously. RW aside, am I the only one seriously affected by Jorah's swimming eyes of hurt after he and the 2 power rangers conquered Yunkai only to be dismissed for Dario? Then again maybe I just value subtlety. Do I need to mention im not unsullied?

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