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[Book Spoilers] EP309 Discussion

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1-) Walder (guest right violation)

2-) Roose (betray his own king for southern kingdom)

3-)Tywin

4-) leeches

Also we can think it was Robb who himself had this coming for him. He won every battle but made bad decisions, firstly broking his vow with the Freys. Then loosing some of his bannermen (Firstly the Freys, then Karstarks), leading to Roose betray him.

1. Tywin, Walder and Roose plots the whole thing.

2. Walder and Roose execute the massacre.

3. Stannis practices dark magic (hard to tell how much effort does it have)

ALL preceding Robb's mistakes during the war.

My first post!

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Also we can think it was Robb who himself had this coming for him. He won every battle but made bad decisions, firstly broking his vow with the Freys. Then loosing some of his bannermen (Firstly the Freys, then Karstarks), leading to Roose betray him.

1. Tywin, Walder and Roose plots the whole thing.

2. Walder and Roose execute the massacre.

3. Stannis practices dark magic (hard to tell how much effort does it have)

ALL preceding Robb's mistakes during the war.

My first post!

If they want to betray him so much, they should separated from Robb and fight side by side with Lannisters against Robb in the field. Maybe they don't have courage for that ?

Everyone making mistakes in asoiaf, so this is not a excuse for RW crap...

And Karstark... This is not a mistake for me. Ned or other Stark leaders do the same thing to that child killer Karstark, remember Ned and Robert about killing Dany.

Edited by Marco

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I loved the episode.

I have never been so nervous while watching TV-show/movie and my heart was beating while the set up was done for RW. I got spoiled for RW (my own stupidity) but when I read it, it shocked me. Obviously the TV-episode didn't hurt that much since already knew what's going to happen but still it was done greatly and felt bad.

I didn't mind the most things nitpicked here (Roose's behavior, Grey Wind's death etc.) because I know TV's going to be different than books. This event was to be made a massacre, a bloodbath to shock viewers so letting Grey Wind die without a fight is understandable (would've been more expensive AND prob not so smooth looking).

My only concern was the lack of Northeners defending Robb. I mean they CLEARLY had Wendel there but when the shit hit them, he disappeared. If they so clearly had Wendel being there near Robb, they could've let the viewers see Robb still had loyal men serving him who would defend the king til' death.

But all in all, the episode was great. Looking forward for Final and after it's Dunk and Egg books for me until the new cast announcements and the 4th season.

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Don't get me wrong, I liked the interaction between Robb and Cat very much, I think that part war realized extremely well; Fairleys acting was great.

Yet it just felt like there was something missing. All the loyalists going down in just a few seconds somehow felt wrong and the impression of complete

chaos I got while reading just wasn't there in the way I imagined it.

Isn't it possible that that element is going to be shown in the next episode though? From the trailer it would appear there's a scene of wholesale destruction in the Northmen camps outside the Twins so that sense of the North being lost may come then.

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I think the RW was really well done, my only problem was the ease and fastness in which the northern nobility (read: extras) was killed. I can understand the directors decision to do it fast and ruthless like this since the impact was really huge and showed that Robb absolutely had no chance of escaping but I remember from the chapter in the book that at least a few northern lords tried to protect their king and this opportunity to show that was really wasted.

Also I really imagined the Hound knocking Arya down to be a bit more dramatic. If I remember correctly, the hound did kill some Frey soldiers before he reached Arya running into the Twins. But hopefully we will see something similar in the final episode when the Stark camp is attacked and burned. And hopefully also see what happens to the Blackfish

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If they want to betray him so much, they should separated from Robb and fight side by side with Lannisters against Robb in the field. Maybe they don't have courage for that ?

Everyone making mistakes in asoiaf, so this is not a excuse for RW crap...

And Karstark... This is not a mistake for me. Ned or other Stark leaders do the same thing to that child killer Karstark, remember Ned and Robert about killing Dany.

If they want to betray him so much, they should separated from Robb and fight side by side with lannisters against Robb. Maybe they don't have courage for that ?

Everyone making mistakes in asoiaf, so this is not a excuse for RW crap...

And karstark thing... This is not a mistake for me. Ned or other starks do same thing to that child killer karstark, remember ned and robert about killing dany.

The thing is, Walder Frey, in Cat's words "is a dangerous man to cross", right? Robb needed him though and made vows to get what he wants. BUT even though Robb was warned, he still breaks his vows and as I understand, noble families have always "spat" on the Freys. You don't do that to a man who is known to be dangerous and holds something very essential to your cause (men and the bridge). This doesn't approve the violation of guest right and the massacre of RW but Walder Frey got his excuse to betray him. And a sly man he is, he betrays him when he knows he gets "protection" from Tywin.

And Roose, I think the Starks have never trusted Boltons (got the expression from Ned). I think Robb put too much faith in him. When Robb looks like he is losing the war, Roose turns his cloak. Like Ned said about Jaime goes well with Roose as well: "You served him well, when it was safe".

As for Karstark thing, Robb decided to execute their lord as is suitable for Rickard's crimes. BUT if the Karstark are half of his army, what do you expect them to do when their lord is executed? Edmure, BF and Cat, they all (I think) suggested Robb to hold him as hostage until the fighting is done but Robb decided to behead him.

I agree that Roose and Walder Frey do not have the courage to turn their cloaks openly so they go do thing like the RW.

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In response to all the Unsullied's rage and complaints at my office "Why do they keep killing off all the good guys?!!",I tell them that George R R Martin was pushed into one too many lockers in high school, and deep down is angry with the way the world works.

He uses ASOIF as a way of instilling the 'A$$holes finish first" belief into the minds of his readers.

I also tell everyone in the office that Cersei Lannister marries Ramsay Bolton in the end and win the iron throne together.

The last few as-of-yet unreleased chapters of TWOW and DOS, are just torture-pron where Arya, Jon, Brienne, Stannis, Davos, Dany, Bran, Rickon, Tyrion, Sansa and ESPECIALLY the remaining Stark dire wolves all meet their slow, horrific and deserved demise at the hands of Ramsay and Cersei.

The seventology epilogue reads:

(READER): "Why George Why?!?!??!"

(George R R Martin responds): "Because $%# you! Thats why."

Its gonna be awesome.

But joking aside, I'm beginning to really think George is going to go full bore on pissing off his readers in these last two books.

Let me explain. George makes perfectly clear that there are no heroes in his books, and that your honor can and does get you killed. Yes, George, we get it. But sometimes having honor does save your life and your people. Athens was spared complete destruction at the hands of LYsander / Sparta after losing the Peloponesian war precisely for the fact that they demonstrated great courage and honor against the Persians in the Greco-Persian war that preceeded it. Without the Athenian naval victory at Salamis, there would be no Western civilization today. Honor 1. No Honor 0.

But my issues with the books or George in general, is that he does not in any way shape or form show that having no honor whatsoever has any negative consequences.

Ed Stark and Robb and co. are mercilessly massacred for the 'crimes' of:

(a) refusing to bow to the bastard incestuous offspring of a scheming Lannister Queen, who knowingly deceived your best friend through many years and even suposedly murdered their legit children.

(B )breaking a single marriage vows to a lesser lord

For these crimes, their children are enslaved or banished, their homes and castles burned to the ground, thousands upon thousands of their honorable and loyal subjects are put to the sword. Honor 1. No Honor 100.

But have no honor whatsover? Welcome to the victory party people!!! Take the Boltons for instance. Here is a family that rapes, pillages, lies, flays and deceives to their hearts contents. What negative consequence happens to the Boltons in any of the books to date? I challenge you to name one. Oooooh, yellow dick was killed. A glorified single bodyguard had his weiner chopped off. Thats it. $hit is getting real. Honor 1. No Honor 100,000.

Game over, readers. Game over.

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In response to all the Unsullied's rage and complaints at my office "Why do they keep killing off all the good guys?!!",I tell them that George R R Martin was pushed into one too many lockers in high school, and deep down is angry with the way the world works.

He uses ASOIF as a way of instilling the 'A$$holes finish first" belief into the minds of his readers.

I also tell everyone in the office that Cersei Lannister marries Ramsay Bolton in the end and win the iron throne together.

The last few as-of-yet unreleased chapters of TWOW and DOS, are just torture-pron where Arya, Jon, Brienne, Stannis, Davos, Dany, Bran, Rickon, Tyrion, Sansa and ESPECIALLY the remaining Stark dire wolves all meet their slow, horrific and deserved demise at the hands of Ramsay and Cersei.

The seventology epilogue reads:

(READER): "Why George Why?!?!??!"

(George R R Martin responds): "Because $%# you! Thats why."

Its gonna be awesome.

But joking aside, I'm beginning to really think George is going to go full bore on pissing off his readers in these last two books.

Let me explain. George makes perfectly clear that there are no heroes in his books, and that your honor can and does get you killed. Yes, George, we get it. But sometimes having honor does save your life and your people. Athens was spared complete destruction at the hands of LYsander / Sparta after losing the Peloponesian war precisely for the fact that they demonstrated great courage and honor against the Persians in the Greco-Persian war that preceeded it. Without the Athenian naval victory at Salamis, there would be no Western civilization today. Honor 1. No Honor 0.

But my issues with the books or George in general, is that he does not in any way shape or form show that having no honor whatsoever has any negative consequences.

Ed Stark and Robb and co. are mercilessly massacred for the 'crimes' of:

(a) refusing to bow to the bastard incestuous offspring of a scheming Lannister Queen, who knowingly deceived your best friend through many years and even suposedly murdered their legit children.

(B )breaking a single marriage vows to a lesser lord

For these crimes, their children are enslaved or banished, their homes and castles burned to the ground, thousands upon thousands of their honorable and loyal subjects are put to the sword. Honor 1. No Honor 100.

But have no honor whatsover? Welcome to the victory party people!!! Take the Boltons for instance. Here is a family that rapes, pillages, lies, flays and deceives to their hearts contents. What negative consequence happens to the Boltons in any of the books to date? I challenge you to name one. Oooooh, yellow dick was killed. A glorified single bodyguard had his weiner chopped off. Thats it. $hit is getting real. Honor 1. No Honor 100,000.

Game over, readers. Game over.

Yeah, I think he's become addicted to "you think I won't kill XXX, ha, watch me"...and I have a sneaking suspicion that the moral of the story is going to be "nice guys finish last, after their castles are burned down and their families are killed"

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Let me explain. George makes perfectly clear that there are no heroes in his books, and that your honor can and does get you killed. Yes, George, we get it. But sometimes having honor does save your life and your people. Athens was spared complete destruction at the hands of LYsander / Sparta after losing the Peloponesian war precisely for the fact that they demonstrated great courage and honor against the Persians in the Greco-Persian war that preceeded it. Without the Athenian naval victory at Salamis, there would be no Western civilization today. Honor 1. No Honor 0.

Ned's girls.

The North Remembers.

It matters. It just takes time. Osha looks after Rickon because the Starks were decent to her. The Reeds took care of Bran and Rickon because Ned was a decent man to their father.

But my issues with the books or George in general, is that he does not in any way shape or form show that having no honor whatsoever has any negative consequences.

What happened to Tywin, for doing what he did to Tysha? What happened to sociopath Joffrey? What happened to those Freys who have been caught by the BwB?

Ed Stark and Robb and co. are mercilessly massacred for the 'crimes' of:

Being honorable is not plot armor. That does not mean it does not matter, nor does it mean that being dishonorable is, long-term, the better bet.

But have no honor whatsover? Welcome to the victory party people!!! Take the Boltons for instance. Here is a family that rapes, pillages, lies, flays and deceives to their hearts contents. What negative consequence happens to the Boltons in any of the books to date? I challenge you to name one. Oooooh, yellow dick was killed. A glorified single bodyguard had his weiner chopped off. Thats it. $hit is getting real. Honor 1. No Honor 100,000.

Consider the words you bolded. I suspect that GRRM is not done with the Boltons.

Game over, readers. Game over.

After 5 books in a 7 book series? Try again when he's done.

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Yeah, I think he's become addicted to "you think I won't kill XXX, ha, watch me"...and I have a sneaking suspicion that the moral of the story is going to be "nice guys finish last, after their castles are burned down and their families are killed"

A very long time ago -- like, probably 1999, I posted that the "moral" would be that honor does matter. That Ned being the kind of man he was is what was ultimately going to save his children, because it would be reflected in the loyalty of his lords and people. Can't find the post on the old board -- which still exists somewhere out there -- but I think that's still true.

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A very long time ago -- like, probably 1999, I posted that the "moral" would be that honor does matter. That Ned being the kind of man he was is what was ultimately going to save his children, because it would be reflected in the loyalty of his lords and people. Can't find the post on the old board -- which still exists somewhere out there -- but I think that's still true.

Rickard Karstark suggests otherwise. Not mention Roose Bolton.

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But my issues with the books or George in general, is that he does not in any way shape or form show that having no honor whatsoever has any negative consequences.

Historically correct for a great number of medieval feudal lords. Having no honour whatsoever didn't have any negative consequences for them because they were "the law".

A very long time ago -- like, probably 1999, I posted that the "moral" would be that honor does matter. That Ned being the kind of man he was is what was ultimately going to save his children, because it would be reflected in the loyalty of his lords and people. Can't find the post on the old board -- which still exists somewhere out there -- but I think that's still true.

I suspect you're going to be proved right. GRRM has said the ending will be "bittersweet". I'm suspecting there will be a resolution to the conflict in Westeros, possibly via a merger of House Stark and House Targaryen, but then the whole of the kingdom, no matter what side they started off on, are then going to have to unite to face the threat of The Others and that it will end up in a greater sacrifice than anything that's gone on so far.

Edited by Cadiva

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A very long time ago -- like, probably 1999, I posted that the "moral" would be that honor does matter. That Ned being the kind of man he was is what was ultimately going to save his children, because it would be reflected in the loyalty of his lords and people. Can't find the post on the old board -- which still exists somewhere out there -- but I think that's still true.

I've told myself that, the long game, just and fair rule will win out over fear and scorched earth violence. But, so far, the evidence that the story will turn out that way is thin. Most of the Stark bannermen are already dead, Arya is a stone cold killer, Bran is north of the wall and not coming back. Is victory going to be Rickon Stark, who knows virtually nothing of his family's code of honor ruling in Winterfell?

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One of the biggest moments in the series, and they did it justice. Best scene so far.

The first 45 minutes were intense enough with Jon finally switching sides and Dany's trio taking the city but everything from Rains of Castamere and Kat's horrified look, the killing and her screams and pleading were every bit as harrowing as the book. They even upped the ante with the baby.

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Historically correct for a great number of medieval feudal lords. Having no honour whatsoever didn't have any negative consequences for them because they were "the law".

Magna Carta. Piss off enough of your underlings, and only force matters. Not 'law'.

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Okay seriously. RW aside, am I the only one seriously affected by Jorah's swimming eyes of hurt after he and the 2 power rangers conquered Yunkai only to be dismissed for Dario? Then again maybe I just value subtlety. Do I need to mention im not unsullied?

It made me super sad too. Such brilliant acting. I actually loved the whole Yunkai scene, mostly for Ser Jorah and the cool contrast of how the 3 men fight as individuals and as a group.

As a loyal and devoted book fan I don't like how the episode went. I agree about the shock value that was written about here in the always-brilliant analysis. They had a chance to really make this a truly brilliant hour of television and match the masterful pacing of the chapter. I was completely horrified by the gruesome death of the Talisa character. I can never un-see that. Unnecessary, over-the-top and distasteful.

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I've told myself that, the long game, just and fair rule will win out over fear and scorched earth violence. But, so far, the evidence that the story will turn out that way is thin.

Assuming that you've finished ADWD, don't "The North Remembers" and "Ned's Girls" suggest that all is not lost?

Is victory going to be Rickon Stark, who knows virtually nothing of his family's code of honor ruling in Winterfell?

What's Davos doing nowadays, anyway? ;)

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Assuming that you've finished ADWD, don't "The North Remembers" and "Ned's Girls" suggest that all is not lost?

What's Davos doing nowadays, anyway? ;)

"All" is not lost, but, Wintefell is burned, Bran is in the North and not coming back, Arya is a killer and in Braavos, Rickon is a feral wildling who was 3 when his family was destroyed, Sansa is Sansa so she doesn't count for much, a huge percent of their Northern bannermen and the men in general in the North are dead.

So, I would say, if nothing else bad happens to the Starks, Wyman Manderley kicks everyone's ass....they've lost, they've lost more than the Lannisters that is for sure, Casterly Rock is untouched, and even if all the Lannister prime's die but Tyrion, he will be alive and there are still Kevan's children.

And there is no way nothing else bad is going to happen to the Starks for two more books. So, the moral of the story is that mercy is stupid, because if Ned had put Cersei under house arrest and sent for Robert, it would be House Lannister that was decimated and not House Stark, and there is no way to undo the damage that has been done unless Benjen Stark comes back married to a wildling with a ton of Stark children, and I think we can rule that out, LOL.

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Magna Carta. Piss off enough of your underlings, and only force matters. Not 'law'.

Magna Carta - perfect example of those with power getting what they want. Nowhere in my previous post did I say the King was the one doing whatever he wanted or that he was "the law", I said feudal lords could pretty much act as they wished with very little recourse. Magna Carta didn't make a vast amount of difference to that premise. King John was forced to concede on a number of points, it didn't mean the lords who forced him to sign it went off to their own lands and behaved any more honourably than they were doing before hand. It just meant they succeeded in wresting some of the power away from the throne and protecting the power they already had over their own feudal subjects.

As it happens, although it's hailed as a great document for democracy, by the 19th century only three of the statues still remained part of English law. It's become far more important because of the actualities of how it came about - the idea that the King could be bound by "laws".

Edited by Cadiva

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