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[Book Spoilers] EP309 Discussion

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Cat seeing the mail under the sleeve gave me a book chill.

I totally see how the long pause before Cat got her throat cut was awkward. It lost power a bit. She should have said the Ned, hair line also.

Also, that is a big mystery for me with Uncat. How much is revenge and did the breakdown/madness carry over from her old life? Also, unlike Beric, she was dead awhile before she was "revived by Rhillor"

Her losing it after Robb was killed was a big missing part for me. And Fairley is a great actress and could have done it. I would be she was directed otherwise.

Also, Roslin looks like Kendall Jenner.

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The thing is, Walder Frey, in Cat's words "is a dangerous man to cross", right? Robb needed him though and made vows to get what he wants. BUT even though Robb was warned, he still breaks his vows and as I understand, noble families have always "spat" on the Freys. You don't do that to a man who is known to be dangerous and holds something very essential to your cause (men and the bridge). This doesn't approve the violation of guest right and the massacre of RW but Walder Frey got his excuse to betray him. And a sly man he is, he betrays him when he knows he gets "protection" from Tywin.

And Roose, I think the Starks have never trusted Boltons (got the expression from Ned). I think Robb put too much faith in him. When Robb looks like he is losing the war, Roose turns his cloak. Like Ned said about Jaime goes well with Roose as well: "You served him well, when it was safe".

As for Karstark thing, Robb decided to execute their lord as is suitable for Rickard's crimes. BUT if the Karstark are half of his army, what do you expect them to do when their lord is executed? Edmure, BF and Cat, they all (I think) suggested Robb to hold him as hostage until the fighting is done but Robb decided to behead him.

I agree that Roose and Walder Frey do not have the courage to turn their cloaks openly so they go do thing like the RW.

Well, Old Walder certainly feels that noble families have always spat on the Freys, primarily by refusing to marry his sons, daughters, and grandchildren.

Think about that in context of the expectations that Old Walder has. His targets are such people as Edmure Tully (heir to being Lord Paramount of the Riverlands) Brynden Blackfish, the brother of Hoster (who IS Lord Paramount while Walder is trying to 'catch' him) and Robb Stark, who is the Lord Paramount and later King in the North. Setting his sights kinda high don't you think? All these families are WELL above the Frey's station. They're just bannermen.

And what does he have to offer in return? With that many kin to marry off, none of them individually is going to come with a big dowry, or for the men, lands and castles of their own. You've got a budget for dowries, and it has to be split between 40 daughters, it's not going to go a long way.

How about the higher lords marrying some Freys to cement their loyalty? That ain't going to happen because they have a long-held reputation for treachery (perhaps going back to before Old Walder) - a reputation which was set in stone when "The Late Walder Frey" failed to show up with his host at the Trident until it was all over and he knew who had won. How much good is that to you in a war?

Walder's disappointment is the same as you or I starting an entry level job flipping burgers and being disappointed that it doesn't come with a company car and an expense account.

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Think about that in context of the expectations that Old Walder has. His targets are such people as Edmure Tully (heir to being Lord Paramount of the Riverlands) Brynden Blackfish, the brother of Hoster (who IS Lord Paramount while Walder is trying to 'catch' him)

Blackfish was never Lord Paramount of the Trident. Edmure was when Hoster died, but after the Red Wedding, Littlefinger became Lord Paramount of the Trident and Lord of Harrenhal.

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"All" is not lost, but, Wintefell is burned, Bran is in the North and not coming back, Arya is a killer and in Braavos, Rickon is a feral wildling who was 3 when his family was destroyed, Sansa is Sansa so she doesn't count for much, a huge percent of their Northern bannermen and the men in general in the North are dead.

But for Robb's lack of honor, the Red Wedding likely would not have happened. And as I said, honor isn't plot armor, so that's why bad things can still happen. But to the extent the Stark children still have hope -- and I think they do -- it is because of the residual loyalty created by Ned.

So, I would say, if nothing else bad happens to the Starks, Wyman Manderley kicks everyone's ass....they've lost, they've lost more than the Lannisters that is for sure, Casterly Rock is untouched, and even if all the Lannister prime's die but Tyrion, he will be alive and there are still Kevan's children.

I don't think it's right to look at "the Lannisters", because "the Lannisters" who inherit Casterly Rock may not be the ones who did bad deeds. What we do know is that perhaps the most horrific act we can attribute directly to any Lannister -- what happened to Tysha -- rebounded to terrible effect. What happens to Cersei and Jaime we don't know, but I doubt that their misdeeds will end up improving their position.

So, the moral of the story is that mercy is stupid, because if Ned had put Cersei under house arrest and sent for Robert, it would be House Lannister that was decimated and not House Stark, and there is no way to undo the damage that has been done....

No, the "moral" (if there is one) is that neither mercy nor honor guarantees either a good or poor result. Both results may happen, though I suspect that in general, it is a positive quality. I don't think that's even idealism, but simple reality.

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It wasn't an arbitrary change. They made the episode so it wasn't obvious that something is wrong which means that they remove the tip of that the musicians are bad, among some other things. I guess it also plays in with the medium since we actually have to listen to the band for quite some time during the show.

I don't buy that it would tip the hand too much. They establish so hard that Walder Frey is being a jerk. Hiring a crappy band could just be another dickish move on his part and doesn't necessarily ruin the surprise. It's still a pretty big leap to slaughter. I think the potential "aha" moment by the audience when they realize WHY the band is so bad is far more fulfilling outcome and was worth the risk of the probably handful of people who might guess what was coming. I mean, even if they do guess that it's a trap, which by the larger context isn't that much of big guess, they aren't going to fathom the depths and completeness of the slaughter. That stuff would still be a shock. I think they overplayed the value of the shock and gutted the surreality that leads to it.

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LOL, so if the moral of the story is that life is totally random, and no matter whether you're a good person or a bad person s**t happens, that's not much of a moral either, because if its all random chance, what's the point of honor and doing the right thing? None. Might as well rape and pillage to your heart's content because maybe it will catch up to you and maybe it won't. Nice. That sounds about right, though.

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I'm obviously guessing - but I would bet they tried to have the band play badly and it just sounded so terrible that it was unbearable to even watch the scenes, or their bad playing wasn't even that bad and ultimately they decided against having them play sort of badly, just make the songs recognizable.

Also @ the moral discussion - honor and whatever is generally good in the long run, whereas ruthlessness and treachery is good in the short run. That's basically my viewpoint, and that neither matters when you have 3 dragons.

Edited by DarkAndFullOfTurnips

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Considering that most of the viewers were shocked, I don't think they overplayed anything.

Just because you knew what was coming doesn't mean everyone else did. I can't stand people on this forum nitpicking without being able to take an objective look at the production of this television show.

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No, the "moral" (if there is one) is that neither mercy nor honor guarantees either a good or poor result. Both results may happen, though I suspect that in general, it is a positive quality. I don't think that's even idealism, but simple reality.

I've always thought the "moral" of ASOIAF (obviously up to book five only) was - shit happens, deal with it.

I mean, GRRM's not made any secret of how much he's inspired and fascinated by the brutality of the feudal medieval society, the Wars of the Roses in particular, and that the good guys don't always win and sometimes you just have to put up with the lesser of two evils. I think that's what he's driving at throughout the books.

Honour is personal to the circumstances in which someone is being tested on theirs. No-one would say Jaime's behaviour as the "Kingslayer" was honourable but his actions actually were the lesser of two incredible evils and he's had to live with the repercussions of that ever since.

Ned's honour is that he thinks everyone should be treated fairly and that he expects everyone else to follow the same rules as he does, it costs him his life. Robb's honour is to offer to marry a girl he's slept with during a period of insane grief and following a fairly debilitating illness, it costs him his life.

Varys' "honour" seems to be to Westeros as a whole, surprising considering his upbringing and background, but so far he's managed to steer that course while also carrying out some pretty unpleasant things along the way.

LOL, so if the moral of the story is that life is totally random, and no matter whether you're a good person or a bad person s**t happens, that's not much of a moral either, because if its all random chance, what's the point of honor and doing the right thing? None. Might as well rape and pillage to your heart's content because maybe it will catch up to you and maybe it won't. Nice. That sounds about right, though.

And plenty of people do just that, or the modern equivalents. It's as endemic in the world today as it was during the middle ages. It's human nature (for some).

Edited by Cadiva

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I'm obviously guessing - but I would bet they tried to have the band play badly and it just sounded so terrible that it was unbearable to even watch the scenes, or their bad playing wasn't even that bad and ultimately they decided against having them play sort of badly, just make the songs recognizable.

Yeah, that would be bad TV because it would have to go on long enough and be loud enough for the audience to realize they were really bad musicians...and that's a bit of a waste of time, especially since they didn't end up spending that much time on the RW anyway....I think that choice was the right one, but I'm not sure how many casual fans even got the song, but that probably doesn't matter eithetr.

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But for Robb's lack of honor, the Red Wedding likely would not have happened. And as I said, honor isn't plot armor, so that's why bad things can still happen. But to the extent the Stark children still have hope -- and I think they do -- it is because of the residual loyalty created by Ned.

I don't think it's right to look at "the Lannisters", because "the Lannisters" who inherit Casterly Rock may not be the ones who did bad deeds. What we do know is that perhaps the most horrific act we can attribute directly to any Lannister -- what happened to Tysha -- rebounded to terrible effect. What happens to Cersei and Jaime we don't know, but I doubt that their misdeeds will end up improving their position.

No, the "moral" (if there is one) is that neither mercy nor honor guarantees either a good or poor result. Both results may happen, though I suspect that in general, it is a positive quality. I don't think that's even idealism, but simple reality.

There's no reason to assume that the Red Wedding wouldn't have happened if Robb had honoured his betrothal to the Frey girl. Old Walder is a devious little shit, and it would only have impacted how big a reward Tywin would have had to offer for his betrayal. If the Frey's were to hang out a shingle it would read, "Betrayals-R-Us."

OMG, what happened to Tysha is nowhere NEAR the most horrific act that the Lannisters do in the books. Tywin ordered Gregor, Vargo Hoath and their thugs into the Riverlands to commit rape, murder, and pillage - and to burn all the crops and food stores, knowing that Winter is Coming. That will ultimately lead to far more deaths, leaving the whole region an unpopulated wasteland by springtime. At which point I'll assume Tywin was planning to annex the region to his own, because there'd be no-one to defend it.

If anything, I think I agree with the Hound more than with you on the mercy and honour thing. "Your mercy is going to get you killed someday." Sounds about right, considering what we've seen so far.

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I wonder how much can unsullied take?

Next season , there's the Oberyn fight and people might freak out that Tyrion will be next LOL

Add to that Davos ... My god the deliciousness of it all

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Cat seeing the mail under the sleeve gave me a book chill.

Same here. Probably one of the most chilling moments to me in the show series so far tbh.

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I wonder how much can unsullied take?

Next season , there's the Oberyn fight and people might freak out that Tyrion will be next LOL

Add to that Davos ... My god the deliciousness of it all

"This Oberyn guy seems pretty badass! He's totally kill that Mountain guy...I can get behind him! Dorne seems pretty interesting if more people are like him."

Basically the same as my reaction before the trial.

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Cat cracking across the face was badass too. I loved that reaction in the book. She was so angry, was taken aback by the audacity, and it was an interesting response at that moment when it dawned on that her son and banners were betrayed. It is a second of amazing writing. Great job on the show too. So poignant.

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I tried to write about some of this earlier but the boards were jammed and it got lost.... Hopefully not this time.

A couple of things....

I know there was no establishment of Robb warging, but book readers have always assumed that this is because we don't get Robb POV. That being said, I still though the last shot of Grey Wind's eyes closing could have been Robb seeing Arya. I thought it was a cool idea whoever suggested that Robb's last word could have been Arya.... cool, but it wouldn't have worked....

I have thought for a long time that this season would end with the Lady Stoneheart reveal. When someone mentioned that "Mysha" means mother.... I was sure of it.

As a historian I have to chime in on the whole honor and mercy versus betrayal and ruthlessness debate....

STALIN- Stalin betrayed the leaders of his party. Murdered his comrades and his citizens. He put people in labor camps, exiled and wrongfully imprisoned them. He did this on a scale that led to the death of millions. In the process he developed an extremely effective army and a productive economy that produced the T-34 tanks and mobilized the manpower that won WWII and saved the world from fascism.

Honor is good but I guess ruthlessness can save the day too. Depends on your view of the so called "greater good".

Great episode. Nothing really worth nitpicking unless I am refusing to understand what an adaptation is.

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Did anyone else think that Roose Bolton's smirk at Catelyn was acted absolutely perfectly? What a great way to show just how badly the man's betrayed Robb, a perfect reveal to the audience of his treachery.

It was a look of "its just business" it was like damn

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Honestly, if was Michael kissing Fredo in the Godfather II. She let them know, "I know what you are doing, how dare you", with the whack across the face.

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Did anyone else thing Roose was about to give Cat a gift when she was looking at his hand. That would have been epic and brought the whole scene to a new level.

I honestly thought he was trying to put the moves on her right then. And I've read the books.

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