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[Book Spoilers] EP309 Discussion

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I have to say I loved that episode. Yes there was things missing from the book version, but the overall essence of the red wedding was there. The false sense of everything is gonna work out, to all of a sudden, omg, WTF just happened? I had chills after watching the last 10 mins. It was just as hard to watch as it was to read.

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I just watched this episode for the second time to make sure I didn't miss anything. I thought it was good, and accurately conveyed the horror that was the Red Wedding. I understand that the TV medium can be difficult to translate and the producers are challenged to match anything up to the books.

But am I the only one bummed out that they couldn't show any of the heroics of Robb's guys during the massacre? I was affected by the killing of Robb and Catelyn like everyone else, but some of the most memorable images from my reading of the chapter were those describing the actions of the Smalljon, Dacey Mormont and Raynald Westerling when everything goes downhill. Even the image of Wendel Manderly getting a quarrel through the throat without actually getting up and doing anything was surprising in its own right. I was really looking forward to seeing any one of Robb's guys throw a table on top of him that immediately gets punctured by crossbow bolts, then start whacking guys with turkey legs. Dacey knocks a guy out with a beer glass before getting taken out. I might be picking nits over an altogether excellent episode, and I understand that the audience wouldn't have cared about how nameless characters died but I was disappointed in this regard.

Robb, Catelyn and Talisa weren't the only victims. The heirs to most of the Northern houses got decimated.

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Jorah...you whine like a mule...you are still alive!

Prince of Thieves.....love the reference. Thanks for the laugh.

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I am really hoping that they will not show the post-mortem mutilation on TV. They can talk about it, I don't care; I just don't want to see it.

Same here. It's bad enough already, they don't have to show it. I really hope they don't, this was such a gruesome scene in the book.

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I hope we get to see Arya/Nymeria protecting her mother's dead body from the other wolves until Beric and crew show up.

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I just watched this episode for the second time to make sure I didn't miss anything. I thought it was good, and accurately conveyed the horror that was the Red Wedding. I understand that the TV medium can be difficult to translate and the producers are challenged to match anything up to the books.

But am I the only one bummed out that they couldn't show any of the heroics of Robb's guys during the massacre? I was affected by the killing of Robb and Catelyn like everyone else, but some of the most memorable images from my reading of the chapter were those describing the actions of the Smalljon, Dacey Mormont and Raynald Westerling when everything goes downhill. Even the image of Wendel Manderly getting a quarrel through the throat without actually getting up and doing anything was surprising in its own right. I was really looking forward to seeing any one of Robb's guys throw a table on top of him that immediately gets punctured by crossbow bolts, then start whacking guys with turkey legs. Dacey knocks a guy out with a beer glass before getting taken out. I might be picking nits over an altogether excellent episode, and I understand that the audience wouldn't have cared about how nameless characters died but I was disappointed in this regard.

Robb, Catelyn and Talisa weren't the only victims. The heirs to most of the Northern houses got decimated.

Well, in fairness, the Freys are butchering a bunch of Northernmen, the down-side is that we don't really know who any of them are.

I loved the episode, I think that most nitpicking is misdirected "anger" over watching the Starks get got, and I think tha tthe show creators did a fantastic job in keeping the episode moving and hiding it in plain sight.

But, sertravisredbeard I agree with you in that I think had the scene contained more elemnts of "resistence" it would have delivered a greater "punch" because every act of resistence and heroism FOR the North would have kindled the flame of false hope, thus making the ultimate death all the more impactful. I mean, the one image that I always remember from the book is when Smalljon Umber heaves a table on to of Robb to protect him from the bolts. I always remember thinking, "Okay, he saved him" when I first read the book but then thinking, "Wait they shot Cat, people are getting stabbed... this is moving fast...." That tension between "hope" and "reality" could have been kindled had they extended that scene just a tad more; shown one or two Northernment make the desperate and futile attempt to save their King. I would have liked that...

BUT we got a lot in return. First, EVERYONE is talking about TAlisa's death; because of her gruesome end, Robb - and Richard Madden is definately the "unsung hero" of the ENTIRE SHOW up to now; he played the HELLout of Robb - is facing his own unimaginable failure; his regret, his loss, his human frailty. Second, Grey Wind's demise was so well done; talk about watching hope die. Third, what the episode lacked in false hope and resistence, it made up for in raw anger and utter ruin. The episode left no doubt that the Stark Revolution was over and the utter destruction of the North has commenced.

And I hate to say this, but, the price of adding in all this stuff would have added in time and money and I think is Benioff and Weiss have done anything its using their time and money wisely. I think they made some really great choices here. And while IU stiff think B&W skrewed up Stannis, I think they nailed the Red Wedding.

Edited by Rockroi

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I just rewatched the episode and drew some conclusions about troop numbers from Robb's map pieces. Hear me out..

There are 3 wolf pieces ( Starks), 2 X ( bolton ) and 4 towers ( Frey ).

If we consider each piece to be work 2k soldiers, this works out quite neatly.

Starks: 6k

Bolton: 4k

Karstark: 8k

Frey: 8k

Karstarks are 8k by subtracting Stark and Bolton from the 18k forces after Robb sent 2k off to die. Also it fits very will with the fact that Karstarks are nearly half of Robb's forces.

Freys are 8k considering four pieces ( 2k each ) and also the fact that Robb says that he needs troops to replace Karstarks and only Walder Frey has that sort of army which can match the Karstarks.

..

I know, this doesn't take into account Robb's other bannermen. However, Robb doesn't have any bannermen in the show. Other than that season1 episode. In S2 and S3, he only has Karstarks and Boltons.

Edit: Tullys have no significant troops either. Poor Edmure.

Edited by zaphodbrx

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Why is it that the RW in the books was epic, but seeing it on screen was horrible? Michelle Fairley, you're just too real. And maybe a bit more fighting back would have sweetened the pill.

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Some people (like Elio & Linda) have made the point that the show really doesn't build up the dread enough...

This is a difficult thing for a book reader to argue back and forth, but I would suggest that people who think the show did not build the dread should listen to this podcast about the episode from non-readers:

http://espn.go.com/e...ayer?id=9342264

Go ahead. Listen to it.

In this podcast, one of them says that Michelle Fairley's contract was for three years :frown5: . Is he rigth about that?

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Michelle's interview says nothing that indicates she will not be back as Stoneheart. Stoneheart is essential to Stark vengeance... it has to be her.

The next episode is called Mysha- which means mother (show Robbs last word). It would make no sense for viewers if Stoneheart appears at the end of next season. In the unsullied minds she would have been rotting for a year.

Lady Stoneheart will appear at the end of the next episode.

Completely agree with this. One of the only things that kept me reading the books was following Lady Stoneheart and hoping for her revenge. When I first saw the title of S3E10 was "Mhysa" and it was quickly noted that it means mother (in Valyrian, I think) my assumption was that it was referring to the Mother of Dragons, Daenerys Stormborn.

However, similar to the case with the title of S3E08, "Second Sons," I think that the title of the episode has multiple meaning. Besides, Dany, the other mother they are referring to will probably be Catelyn Stark (and maybe Cersei Lannister?) making her appearance as Lady Stoneheart.

I'd bet money it's the last shot of Season 3. If it is, I hope they do more with LS in subsequent than is done in the books so far.

Edited by madprofessah

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I didn't think the Frey girls were that bad looking; just plain and somewhat unkempt. I like how one of them spoke up when the old man got her name wrong^^. Edmure is shallow for wanting a pretty wife but then again he's going through with it despite not wanting to anyway- for the sake of his family. Doesn't matter if his reasons for not wanting the marriage are trivial or justified, etc. the point is that he's making the sacrifice Robb should have made. The Blackfish comes across as a bully to me but I found his scene -the one where the Frey women were giving him the look, funny.

The RW was just as horrific as I imagined from the books, I only wish the scene outside with Arya and the Hound was more dramatic. Not sure but it seemed a little toned down almost as if there were hardly any people around. Michelle Fairley was perfect though, and she nailed the episode.

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Why is it that the RW in the books was epic, but seeing it on screen was horrible? Michelle Fairley, you're just too real. And maybe a bit more fighting back would have sweetened the pill.

I guess they were trying to concentrate more on the shock and slaugher. I would have preffered to see some of the northerners protect their king.

I didnt like how they made Tv Robb kind of dumb, i mean why woud you bring your wife, the lady you married to the dude who you crossed by marrying her?

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I guess they were trying to concentrate more on the shock and slaugher. I would have preffered to see some of the northerners protect their king.

I didnt like how they made Tv Robb kind of dumb, i mean why woud you bring your wife, the lady you married to the dude who you crossed by marrying her?

I totally agree, I hate how they made Robb into a stubborn teenager, I don't blame Richard Madden who plays Robb but the writers who made him into a dumbass. Though HBO said that they they brought Talisa to kill off Robb's heir.

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It was pretty effective too.

Most of Robb's problem with his mother arise from the fact he didn't quite understand what she was going through.

And there he was, fully aware of the pain of losing his son and heir, knowing Talisa was dead and that his mother had to live day after day with the same pain since she lost Ned and her children.

You could see it in his eyes too: Robb couldn't take it. He couldn't understand how his mother could.

It was pretty powerful stuff, if you ask me.

Edited by silentwanderer

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I didnt like how they made Tv Robb kind of dumb, i mean why woud you bring your wife, the lady you married to the dude who you crossed by marrying her?

He was going there with his 'entire' army and they were going to be protected by the guest right so it was 'safe' for her plus the assence of the Queen - as also stated by Cat in the books - could have been perceived as an insult. So no, he wasn't dumb.

Edited by Teardrops

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It was pretty effective too.

Most of Robb's problem with his mother arise from the fact he didn't quite understand what she was going through.

And there he was, fully aware of the pain of losing his son and heir, knowing Talisa was dead and that his mother had to live day after day with the same pain since she lost Ned and her children.

You could see it in his eyes too: Robb couldn't take it. He couldn't understand how his mother could.

It was pretty powerful stuff, if you ask me.

I still hate that they made him 'give up' without a 'fight'. Cat lost so much more than him yet he looses two people and all of a sudden he gives up? Whereas she lost, after Robb, five people. Kind of irritating if you ask me.

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I still hate that they made him 'give up' without a 'fight'. Cat lost so much more than him yet he looses two people and all of a sudden he gives up? Whereas she lost, after Robb, five people. Kind of irritating if you ask me.

I think thats because Cat was being strong for Robb while Robb was just like,my dads dead all my men, probably my brothers and sister too and my mother is not leaving this room

Edited by The Dublin Warrior

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